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The 7 - Current Events & Politics - Swift Boat vets launch ad # 2
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StaggerLee
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#41 Posted on 24.8.04 1458.59
Reposted on: 24.8.11 1459.01
I, for one, am just glad John Kerry can refrain from mudslinging and personal attacks and shift the focus away from war records;
http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/releases/pr_2004_0427b.html



From Drudge:

    Kerry's campaign now says is possible first Purple Heart was awarded for unintentional self-inflicted wound...

    Kerry received Purple Heart for wounds suffered on 12/2/68...

    In Kerry's own journal written 9 days later, he writes he and his crew, quote, 'hadn't been shot at yet'.





(edited by StaggerLee on 24.8.04 1302)
Grimis
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#42 Posted on 24.8.04 1552.43
Reposted on: 24.8.11 1552.49
More Drudge
    Originally posted by Drudge
    Dem presidential hopeful John Kerry personally phoned anti-Kerry swift boat vets, the DRUDGE REPORT has learned.

    Kerry reached out to Robert "Friar Tuck" Brant Cdr., USN (RET) Sunday night, just hours after former Sen. Bob Dole publicly challenged Kerry to apologize to veterans.

    Brant was skipper of the #96 and # 36 boat and spent time with Kerry in An Thoi. Kerry and Brant slept in the same quarters, and Brant used to put Kerry back to bed at night when Kerry was sleepwalking.

    Brant received a call from Kerry at his home in Virginia while he was watching the Olympics on TV.

    The call lasted 10 minutes, sources tell DRUDGE.

    KERRY: "Why are all these swift boat guys opposed to me?"

    BRANT: "You should know what you said when you came back, the impact it had on the young sailors and how it was disrespectful of our guys that were killed over there."

    [Brant had two men killed in battle.]

    KERRY: "When we dedicated swift boat one in '92, I said to all the swift guys that I wasn't talking about the swifties, I was talking about all the rest of the veterans."

    Kerry then asked if he could meet Brant ["You were one of the best"] -- man to man -- face to face.

    Brant declined the invite, explaining that Kerry was obviously not prepared to correct the record on exactly what happened during Vietnam and what happened when Kerry came back.

    Developing...


Hmmmm
Big Bad
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#43 Posted on 24.8.04 1701.58
Reposted on: 24.8.11 1702.01
Oh come on, are we still pretending Matt Drudge is any kind of an unbiased source? He's basically the right's internet answer to Michael Moore. What did he do, tap this Brant guy's phone, or what?
Grimis
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#44 Posted on 24.8.04 1729.19
Reposted on: 24.8.11 1729.54
    Originally posted by Big Bad
    Oh come on, are we still pretending Matt Drudge is any kind of an unbiased source? He's basically the right's internet answer to Michael Moore. What did he do, tap this Brant guy's phone, or what?
I do believe that you and some others have used Moore, MoveOn.org, and his ilk as a legitimate source...
AWArulz
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#45 Posted on 24.8.04 2022.14
Reposted on: 24.8.11 2022.55
    Originally posted by fuelinjected
      Originally posted by StaggerLee
      Which makes perfect sense for Kerry. Stand against something if its his own neck on the line, but gladly help somebody else take all the risks.


    Which allows us to go full circle back to Vietnam and George "Where Was I Again?" Bush, Dick "I had better things to do" Cheney, and John "7 Deferrments" Ashcroft, who never ever came out against the Vietnam War. They were for the Vietnam war but by golly, they used every connection they had to avoid going while the less privileged were sent to slaughter.

    Guys who stand for something but really don't because they won't put their necks on the line for it.

    (edited by fuelinjected on 24.8.04 0008)


Shit, man, anybody who was smart was looking for deferment. My sister's boyfriend got 39 in 1970, so he joined the Peace Corp and did a year in Costa Rica and got a year's deferment. Then he enrolled in college, even though he had no plans of finishing (he wanted to be a motorcycle mechanic. He did about a year and a half there and it mid-73 or so and they pretty much stopped the draft and he dropped out and went back to his apprenticeship - or something. (my sister was off being a hippie by then).

I remember registering - then being awesomely happy that there would be no drawing. And in actuality, they didn't even take our registrations, our guidence counselor set it up, but they had stopped.

And if Vietnam was still on, I wouldn't have gone in the Army out of High School. I had the grades to go to college, but never wanted to - until I was 22 - but I sure as heck would've to avoid the Nam.

Any sane person would. Fortunately, by the time I was old enough, we pulled out of that disaster.

Sure, were they guys who more or less had to go - yep. Sucks to be them. My opinion: They shoulda studied instead of bogarting that joint, baybee! Or like me, they could have done both.
StaggerLee
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#46 Posted on 25.8.04 0149.11
Reposted on: 25.8.11 0149.46
    Originally posted by Big Bad
    Oh come on, are we still pretending Matt Drudge is any kind of an unbiased source? He's basically the right's internet answer to Michael Moore. What did he do, tap this Brant guy's phone, or what?


If it turns out to be, you know, TRUE, what does it matter that it comes from a source that isnt part of the LIBERAL media?


And, if you ever looked at Drudge, you would know, he slams on Bush as much as he slams on Kerry.
Just because he broke the news about Bill and his blowjob queen, dont think he is a mouthpiece for the right.
Grimis
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#47 Posted on 25.8.04 0622.39
Reposted on: 25.8.11 0622.49
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
      Originally posted by Big Bad
      Oh come on, are we still pretending Matt Drudge is any kind of an unbiased source? He's basically the right's internet answer to Michael Moore. What did he do, tap this Brant guy's phone, or what?


    If it turns out to be, you know, TRUE, what does it matter that it comes from a source that isnt part of the LIBERAL media?
You mean like this article from the Associated Press?

EDIT Incidentally, that right wing rag The New York Times pointed out that the Kerry Campaign shares a lawyer with America Coming Together, a left-wing 527 group.

This wouldn't be so funny if the Kerry campaign wasn't complaining about SwiftVets doing the same thing...

Incidentally, not the title of the story. Eventually, it gets to Kerry's shared lawyer. Not that you would know from the title....

(edited by Grimis on 25.8.04 0743)
dMr
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#48 Posted on 25.8.04 0655.59
Reposted on: 25.8.11 0656.02
    Originally posted by Grimis
      Originally posted by StaggerLee
        Originally posted by Big Bad
        Oh come on, are we still pretending Matt Drudge is any kind of an unbiased source? He's basically the right's internet answer to Michael Moore. What did he do, tap this Brant guy's phone, or what?


      If it turns out to be, you know, TRUE, what does it matter that it comes from a source that isnt part of the LIBERAL media?
    You mean like this article from the Associated Press?


I'm failing to see anything in the AP article that adds weight to criticism of Kerry. We already know that a lot of Vietnam Vets are pissed at him. The only quote from the Drudge report that I thought added anything was...

"I said to all the swift guys that I wasn't talking about the swifties, I was talking about all the rest of the veterans."

That quote is conspicuos by its absence from the AP article where the same portion of the call is reported as...

"Kerry said he didn't mean everyone was involved in the atrocities"

Which is more than a little different.
Grimis
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#49 Posted on 25.8.04 0725.10
Reposted on: 25.8.11 0726.28
Does it matter if he says he meant "not everybody" when he claimed in his Congressional Testimony in 1971 that he and everybody else committed war crimes?

Notice no reporter has asked Kerry what war crimes he committed during the war...

(And I'm not claiming that Kerry committed war crimes; he claimed that himself)
dMr
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#50 Posted on 25.8.04 0755.28
Reposted on: 25.8.11 0756.01
    Originally posted by Grimis
    Does it matter if he says he meant "not everybody" when he claimed in his Congressional Testimony in 1971 that he and everybody else committed war crimes?

    Notice no reporter has asked Kerry what war crimes he committed during the war...

    (And I'm not claiming that Kerry committed war crimes; he claimed that himself)


Given that his testimony opened with:

"I would simply like to speak in very general terms. I apologize if my statement is general because I received notification yesterday you would hear me and I am afraid because of the injunction I was up most of the night and haven't had a great deal of chance to prepare."

I would suggest that he at least has the right to qualify what he said at a later date. He says now that he never intended to suggested every single soldier committed war crimes. I'm sure you could find quotes from his testimony which suggest otherwise. I'm sure if others could be bothered to argue the counterpoint they could find evidence to support Kerry.

Its really neither here nor there though, which is why I expressed no opinion one way or t'other regarding Kerry in this instance.

All I did was show that the AP article you linked to portrayed what I perceived to be the crucial quote from the phone call in a very different light to the earlier link, which some had been questioning the subjectivity of.
Grimis
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#51 Posted on 25.8.04 0805.17
Reposted on: 25.8.11 0806.00
    Originally posted by dMr
    He says now that he never intended to suggested every single soldier committed war crimes.
And I call bullshit on that, becuase Kerry knew exactly what he was doing. His entire life was geared towards a political career, and this gave the anti-war left he sought, even then, exactly what they wanted to hear.
    Originally posted by dMr
    I would suggest that he at least has the right to qualify what he said at a later date.
I'll remember that next time we talk about Bush and WMD's....
dMr
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#52 Posted on 25.8.04 0830.47
Reposted on: 25.8.11 0832.20
    Originally posted by Grimis
      Originally posted by dMr
      He says now that he never intended to suggested every single soldier committed war crimes.
    And I call bullshit on that, becuase Kerry knew exactly what he was doing. His entire life was geared towards a political career, and this gave the anti-war left he sought, even then, exactly what they wanted to hear.


I'm somewhere in between on that. I think he wanted to garner support from the left by giving the impression that war crimes were rife. It would have been monumentally stupid for anyone geared toward a political career to state that EVERY SINGLE soldier had done anything as simple as pick their nose, never mind commit war crimes. I think he was going for 'soldiers all over Vietnam committed war crimes', but he chose his words poorly leading to the impression that he felt every soldier committed war crimes.

    Originally posted by Grimis
      Originally posted by dMr
      I would suggest that he at least has the right to qualify what he said at a later date.
    I'll remember that next time we talk about Bush and WMD's....


I don't see the connection. Kerry was asked to prepare a statement at short notice and prefaced said statement by saying that he was speaking only in general terms. You appear to be taking what I said and making the rather gargantuan leap toward assuming that I believe all political figures reserve the right to recant statements at any time.

Again, I make no comment on whether I believe Kerry was right to make the (even qualified) statements he did. I make no comment on whether I believe the statements he made were borne of a desire to tell the truth or the desire for a political career, although you seem rather keen to make inferences from what I say anyway.

All I did was say the AP article you linked to appeared to lend weight to the argument that the Drudge link was biased, at least in its reporting of this story. Something you have been curiously unwilling to comment on.

(edited by dMr on 25.8.04 1437)
Grimis
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#53 Posted on 25.8.04 0854.06
Reposted on: 25.8.11 0855.57
Drude is biased against Kerry? The mainstream media is biased for Kerry. In the end, the sun will eat the Earth anyway, right?
spf
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#54 Posted on 25.8.04 1320.22
Reposted on: 25.8.11 1320.37
Just to return to the whole Swift Boat story, more documentation now emerges (story.news.yahoo.com) saying that Kerry is telling the truth about being under enemy fire when he won his Bronze Star.

    Originally posted by from the story
    The Navy task force overseeing John Kerry's swift boat squadron in Vietnam reported that his group of boats came under enemy fire during a March 13, 1969, incident that three decades later is being challenged by the Democratic presidential nominee's critics.


    The March 18, 1969, weekly report from Task Force 115, which was located by The Associated Press during a search of Navy archives, is the latest document to surface that supports Kerry's description of an event for which he won a Bronze Star and a third Purple Heart.


    The Task Force report twice mentions the incident five days earlier and both times calls it "an enemy initiated firefight" that included automatic weapons fire and underwater mines used against a group of five boats that included Kerry's.


    Task Force 115 was commanded at the time by retired Rear Adm. Roy Hoffmann, the founder of the group Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, which has been running ads challenging Kerry's account of the episode...



(edited by spf2119 on 25.8.04 1320)
DrOp
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#55 Posted on 25.8.04 1346.26
Reposted on: 25.8.11 1346.44
There was a story on the NBC Nightly News yesterday, that pointed out that one of Kerry's biggest detractors received a Bronze star (during the same incident) and that his documentation also included the phrase about "being under fire." The gentleman said he accepted the medal (even though he knew it wasn't 100% accurate).

Reporter: "So, for your account to be accurate. Numerous military records would have to be false, been falsified and many people, including John Kerry would either have to be lying or have the same false recollection?"

Vet: "Yes, that's correct."

*I apologize for the lack of link, but msnbc keeops crashing on my machine*


And, Ginsberg (Bush Cheney lawyer) has resigned because he also served as an advisor to the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/08/25/ginsberg.swiftboat/index.html

    Originally posted by CNN.com
    A campaign official told CNN that Benjamin Ginsberg advised the group a few months ago at the same time he was working with the Bush-Cheney campaign.

    Campaign adviser Terry Holt told CNN that the Bush-Cheney campaign learned Tuesday of Ginsberg's double duty.





(edited by DrOp on 25.8.04 1453)
PalpatineW
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#56 Posted on 25.8.04 1621.30
Reposted on: 25.8.11 1622.10
Kerry is sending Max Cleland to Crawford today to hand-deliver a letter.

CNN.com

Does Cleland mind being used as a prop? "Hey, send the gimp over there, that'll garner sympathy."

Re: Ginsburg resigning, here's the official Bush response.

    Originally posted by Ken Mehlman
    "Ben's resignation is an example of a decent public servant who understood the entrenched double standard in the media’s examination of the relationship between campaigns and outside interest groups, exemplified by their tolerance of blatant lies by two Kerry spokespeople regarding their campaign's relationship with Bob Bauer. The Kerry campaign’s hypocrisy today embodies the worst of American politics. Ben's Democratic counterparts and outside observers of campaign finance law have all made clear that there's no legal conflict in what Bauer, Joe Sandler and Ben Ginsberg do for their various clients.


Extensive googling will tell you that Bob Bauer works for ACT (the group involved in the Vote for Change tour) and the Democratic party, something the media doesn't deem important enough for us to know. I had to get that Mehlman quote from the partisan National Review, despite it being fairly standard practice in journalism to publish both sides of the story.
spf
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#57 Posted on 25.8.04 1649.05
Reposted on: 25.8.11 1649.33
Does Bob Bauer work for the Kerry campaign or the Democratic Party? That distinction is crucial. If he works for Kerry and for Moveon then he should follow Ginsburg out the door of their campaigns. But there is no inherent conflict of interest for the Kerry campaign if the guy does not actually work for the Kerry campaign, but merely the party he represents.
AWArulz
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#58 Posted on 25.8.04 2149.39
Reposted on: 25.8.11 2151.49
    Originally posted by dMr
    He says now that he never intended to suggested every single soldier committed war crimes. I'm sure you could find quotes from his testimony which suggest otherwise.


DMr, Everybody knew what Kerry was saying back in the day. Same thing as Hanoi Jane Fonda and same thing as Tom Hayden. He gave those bastards who called Nam Vets Baby Killers and spat on them and threw feces on them permission to do so. I gotta think a HUGE majority of Nam vets and Nam Era vets would have to be against Kerry. I fall into the second catagory and I know how I feel.

He could be a Republican and I would feel the same way. I don't know exactly what Lt. Kerry did in The Nam, but I know personally what he did after. And he can never take those words back.

Now, I would listen if he'd ask forgiveness.
jivesoulbro
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#59 Posted on 25.8.04 2317.48
Reposted on: 25.8.11 2318.54
doing.
John Kerry's remarks threw ever US serviceman in Vietnam under the bus for committing war crimes. Hell, he admtted to committing war crimes himself. I'd say that's a pretty damning and irresponsible statement...one that was used to torture US Prisoners of War.



    That's bullshit. He was recounting what the veterans in Michigan had told him they had done, and you'd know that if you listened to the full testimony.
Net Hack Slasher
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#60 Posted on 26.8.04 0348.28
Reposted on: 26.8.11 0349.30
What am I missing here? He told the truth. It's well documented the stuff that John Kerry talked about HAPPENED. Because some hippies mistook or misunderstood foolishly that EVERY soldiers did this how is this Kerry's fault for saying what was going on there... Does anyone see the hypocrisy! The vets are angry that they were all branded as baby killers when they came back (and that was wrong obviously). But now they are willing to place Kerry in the same boat as people who spat on them just because he was Pro Peace and wanted to war to end. If these vets don't like being painted by the same brush don't go out and do the same to all Peace go'ers. I don't get it, he's getting heat for what OTHERS perceived what he said. He came out and told his accounts of the situation, too bad if it made the US military be seen in a bad light, maybe it was deserved.

What's going to happen to the poor sap who made public the Abu Ghraib prison photos. Is he a trader for daring to shine the light on these wrong doings, because it might give a bad impression of what the military is... John Kerry didn't make the Vietnam vets look bad, it's the rogue military personal from top to bottom who were actually doing the deeds that Kerry talked about is made Vietnam vets look bad. Their anger is directed at the wrong soldier.
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