The W
Views: 98312448
Main | FAQ | Search: Y! / G | Color chart | Log in for more!
20.8.07 2128
The 7 - Current Events & Politics - Swift Boat vets launch ad # 2
This thread has 1 referral leading to it
Register and log in to post!
Pages: 1 2 3 4 Next(721 newer) Next thread | Previous thread
User
Post (78 total)
Grimis
Scrapple
Level: 124

Posts: 3775/4700
EXP: 21430452
For next: 406210

Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1206 days
Last activity: 1003 days
#1 Posted on 20.8.04 1319.16
Reposted on: 20.8.11 1319.37
This one potentially more damning than the first one, if you ask me. I have not seen the video(looking for a working feed) but i have read the transcript via NewsMax:

    Originally posted by Swift Boat Vets for Truth, Ad # 2
    KERRY: "They personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads ..."
    JOE PONDER (wounded 1968): The accusations that John Kerry made against the veterans who served in Vietnam were just devastating ..."

    KERRY: "... randomly shot at civilians ..."

    PONDER: "... more than any physical wounds I had."

    KERRY: "... cut off limbs, blown up bodies ..."

    KEN CORDIER (former POW): "That was part of the torture, that you had to sign a statement that you committed war crimes."

    KERRY: "... razed villages in a fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan ..."

    PAUL GALANTI (former POW): John Kerry gave the enemy for free what I and my comrades in the prison camps in North Vietnam took torture to avoid saying."

    KERRY: "... crimes committed on a day-to-day basis ..."

    CORDIER: "He betrayed us in the past. How could we be loyal to him now?"

    KERRY: "... ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam ..."

    GALANTI: "He dishonored his country and, more importantly, the veterans he served with. He sold them out."

Promote this thread!
SKLOKAZOID
Bratwurst
Level: 74

Posts: 779/1419
EXP: 3600221
For next: 53340

Since: 20.3.02
From: California

Since last post: 1 day
Last activity: 1 hour
AIM:  
#2 Posted on 20.8.04 1353.16
Reposted on: 20.8.11 1354.20
I think this ad will backfire. With the testimony of Kerry intercut with the vets talking about how betrayed they felt, it's going to show viewers their true motives.

We live in a society where movies like Platoon, Apocalypse Now, and The Deer Hunter have all been well-recieved, and all three hinted at or portrayed war crimes in some fashion, so it is pretty ingrained in our culture that Kerry's testimony has some degree of credibility. Maybe not with the Vietnam vets that were personally affected, but American culture has accepted over the years that atrocities did happen in Vietnam.

This commercial makes the vets look as if they cannot accept the war crimes that popular culture has accepted.

Grimis
Scrapple
Level: 124

Posts: 3776/4700
EXP: 21430452
For next: 406210

Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1206 days
Last activity: 1003 days
#3 Posted on 20.8.04 1408.39
Reposted on: 20.8.11 1409.08
    Originally posted by SKLOKAZOID
    This commercial makes the vets look as if they cannot accept the war crimes that popular culture has accepted.
Excuse me?

EDIT: Linkified...

(edited by Grimis on 20.8.04 1510)
DJ FrostyFreeze
Knackwurst
Level: 108

Posts: 1623/3375
EXP: 13317482
For next: 203061

Since: 2.1.02
From: Hawthorne, CA

Since last post: 1 day
Last activity: 23 hours
#4 Posted on 20.8.04 1416.57
Reposted on: 20.8.11 1417.39
This thread (along with all of your others) makes it look like you comb the net all day looking for *ANY* sort of negative news/article/mention/opinion about John Kerry & democrats in general, then race back here to post it.

Doesnt that *ever* get old?
Grimis
Scrapple
Level: 124

Posts: 3777/4700
EXP: 21430452
For next: 406210

Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1206 days
Last activity: 1003 days
#5 Posted on 20.8.04 1422.42
Reposted on: 20.8.11 1423.12
It doesn't take much time to make John Kerry look bad. I mean, he has been caught in repeated lies, the media is trying to ignore it and, when they don't ignore it, they just out and out panic to cover his ass.

And people here defend this asshole...
SKLOKAZOID
Bratwurst
Level: 74

Posts: 780/1419
EXP: 3600221
For next: 53340

Since: 20.3.02
From: California

Since last post: 1 day
Last activity: 1 hour
AIM:  
#6 Posted on 20.8.04 1424.07
Reposted on: 20.8.11 1425.01
I don't see Kerry charging any of these men with committing war crimes. Maybe these POWs are completely innocent of comitting any of these crimes. That doesn't mean other people didn't. It just means that these particular POWs were wrongly accused by the Vietnamese. Kerry isn't guilty of what they were doing.

Whether there were any convictions or not (and there were), people are pretty aware that some bad things happened over there. Kerry said something that he felt needed to be said at the time, and it is a message that has gotten through to the masses over time. It's a statement that has been echoed in films, books, and TV.

When Lt. William Calley was convicted of the Mai Lai massacre, I suppose the United States government was giving the Vietnamese captors exactly what they wanted. I guess that's why he was eventually pardoned.
fuelinjected
Banger
Level: 97

Posts: 2369/2679
EXP: 9125315
For next: 192043

Since: 12.10.02
From: Canada

Since last post: 3198 days
Last activity: 3198 days
#7 Posted on 20.8.04 1428.00
Reposted on: 20.8.11 1429.00
    Originally posted by Grimis
    It doesn't take much time to make John Kerry look bad. I mean, he has been caught in repeated lies, the media is trying to ignore it and, when they don't ignore it, they just out and out panic to cover his ass.

    And people here defend this asshole...


You could easily insert "George W. Bush" into that statement, though.
Grimis
Scrapple
Level: 124

Posts: 3778/4700
EXP: 21430452
For next: 406210

Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1206 days
Last activity: 1003 days
#8 Posted on 20.8.04 1445.53
Reposted on: 20.8.11 1446.55
    Originally posted by SKLOKAZOID
    I don't see Kerry charging any of these men with committing war crimes. Maybe these POWs are completely innocent of comitting any of these crimes. That doesn't mean other people didn't. It just means that these particular POWs were wrongly accused by the Vietnamese. Kerry isn't guilty of what they were doing.
John Kerry's remarks threw ever US serviceman in Vietnam under the bus for committing war crimes. Hell, he admtted to committing war crimes himself. I'd say that's a pretty damning and irresponsible statement...one that was used to torture US Prisoners of War.

    Originally posted by fuelinjected
    You could easily insert "George W. Bush" into that statement, though.
Sure, but Bush isn't demanding publishers censor books about him either.

The Kerry campaign is in full retreat mode...

(edited by Grimis on 20.8.04 1551)
A Fan
Liverwurst
Level: 68

Posts: 769/1164
EXP: 2697007
For next: 31807

Since: 3.1.02

Since last post: 3494 days
Last activity: 3494 days
#9 Posted on 20.8.04 1454.53
Reposted on: 20.8.11 1457.36
Why bother even trying to reply to these threads. Grimis, throws these things up, we try to debate it, he attacks and has the last post all the while everyone turns a blind eye while others get banned for almost the same crap.

I'm sorry, but this is my last post on the political board, its same old same old without any real discussion, just attacks on everyone. I love politics, but this trash the other guy mentality is overused and shows a lack of education. I find no creditablity in any of the claims made on by most of the individuals here, so perhaps I'll just get banned for pointing out the obvious.
Grimis
Scrapple
Level: 124

Posts: 3780/4700
EXP: 21430452
For next: 406210

Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1206 days
Last activity: 1003 days
#10 Posted on 20.8.04 1502.14
Reposted on: 20.8.11 1503.16
    Originally posted by A Fan
    I love politics, but this trash the other guy mentality is overused and shows a lack of education.
This is what I don't undestand. I place up stories for discussion. I get attacked because I am a Republican. Then I get accused of flaming and being uneducated. I have a BA in Politcal Science and a Masters in Political Management. I do politics for a living. I post stories, generally news stories or references to what other groups are doing, and then I get viciously attacked. I don't understand why the people who disagree with me politically won't, at the very least, discuss the point.

Politics is a dirty business, and I love it.

EDIT: Back to the point: Background info on the POW's in the spot is now available.

Hugh Hewitt says it succintly
    Originally posted by Hugh Hewitt
    This is devastating. The day after John Kerry complains about having his war service questioned, the new ad underscores how Kerry did far worse to thousands of vets. Kerry built himself up over the years into a brave captain traveling deep into Cambodian waters to run guns, drop off SEALs and CIA men (hatless) etc. He did so after condemning a generation of soldiers and Marines as war criminals. He wanted to be praised for his own bravery even after he torched the reputations of hundreds of thousands of Vietnam-era vets.

    (edited by Grimis on 20.8.04 1606)
Pool-Boy
Lap cheong
Level: 81

Posts: 1530/1759
EXP: 4894752
For next: 98118

Since: 1.8.02
From: Huntington Beach, CA

Since last post: 1252 days
Last activity: 18 days
AIM:  
ICQ:  
Y!:
#11 Posted on 20.8.04 1524.34
Reposted on: 20.8.11 1524.34
    Originally posted by A Fan
    Why bother even trying to reply to these threads. Grimis, throws these things up, we try to debate it, he attacks and has the last post all the while everyone turns a blind eye while others get banned for almost the same crap.

    I'm sorry, but this is my last post on the political board, its same old same old without any real discussion, just attacks on everyone. I love politics, but this trash the other guy mentality is overused and shows a lack of education. I find no creditability in any of the claims made on by most of the individuals here, so perhaps I'll just get banned for pointing out the obvious.


I thought this was an issue though! At least, didn't Kerry make his Vietnam service a central issue in his campaign?

I do agree with you about discussion of the issues. What I want to see out of the Democrats is a response to these issues. Instead of a real rebuttal to these issues, we get the following -

    Originally posted by DJ FrostyFreeze
    This thread (along with all of your others) makes it look like you comb the net all day looking for *ANY* sort of negative news/article/mention/opinion about John Kerry & democrats in general, then race back here to post it.

    Doesnt that *ever* get old?


    Originally posted by fuelinjected
    You could easily insert "George W. Bush" into that statement, though.


Considering the years of Bush bashing from you fine folks with far less evidence, I would think you would be more tolerant of attacking a politicians weakness. But you don't seem to like this! And as soon as a negative Kerry story pops up, you reply with a series of tired arguments that have already been debated, with the facts falling on Bush's side. His Guard service? WMDs? How about debating the issues?

Same goes all the way up to Kerry. Where is his response to this? Kerry has been trumpeting his Vietnam service, and here comes a group of credible witnesses that challenge his version of events. He calls them liars, as do all of you. Where is a point-by-point rebuttal of their claims? All I am seeing is a hypocritical attack on their organization. How can you seriously suggest that the swiftvets aren't legitimate, when you swear by Moveon.org?

I don't expect any of you to rebut their claims- how could you when Kerry himself hasn't given you any ammunition? Kerry is the one who stands accused of lying, only he can come out and set the records straight. To release ALL of his records and outline in detail exactly why the swiftvets were lying. But he hasn't, and won't.

Come on - why aren't you screaming for his records with the veracity that you screamed for Bush's? Don't you want to see the proof that supports your own guy? Or are you afraid that none exists?

It seems pretty clear to me that you Democrats have a rotten egg here. I can understand you not wanting to back down, you have invested so much time and venom attacking Bush that if you admitted the truth now, you would have that same rotten egg all over your face. No one wants that. My question is - what do you folks need from us to save face?

You know, it is OK to ask tough questions of your own guy, to criticize him, to call him to the carpet for things that don't add up. I am a Bush voter, a Republican-leaning voter, but I freely call into question the policies of "my guy" when it is needed. Immigration being a huge example. Where is something really fishy about Kerry's claims, how is it wrong for you to demand from him that he clear the air? Campaigning on a 30 year old war is bad enough on its own, why aren't you demanding from Kerry that he cut that out? Look at the Republican backlash when Bush proposed his amnesty plan. We do it - why is it that you have to blindly support your guy no matter how far he sticks his foot in his mouth?

Yes - debate the issues. Please, stop falling back on exaggerations and lies to support your guy (Bush is a liar, no WMDs, blah blah). This is an issue. Kerry made it as such. Defend or attack him, and demand from him that he gives you the ammo you need to support him.
Reverend J Shaft
Liverwurst
Level: 66

Posts: 219/1135
EXP: 2440781
For next: 21083

Since: 25.6.03
From: Home of The Big House

Since last post: 6 days
Last activity: 6 hours
#12 Posted on 20.8.04 1530.36
Reposted on: 20.8.11 1530.39
    Originally posted by A Fan
    I love politics, but this trash the other guy mentality is overused and shows a lack of education.


Wow, you must really hate Fahrenheit 911 and both the Bush and Kerry campaigns, then.

(edited by Reverend J Shaft on 20.8.04 1630)
DJ FrostyFreeze
Knackwurst
Level: 108

Posts: 1624/3375
EXP: 13317482
For next: 203061

Since: 2.1.02
From: Hawthorne, CA

Since last post: 1 day
Last activity: 23 hours
#13 Posted on 20.8.04 1620.43
Reposted on: 20.8.11 1620.43
Pool-Boy*, most of the stuff you said about Democrats on this board (& in general) doesnt really apply to me. Honestly, I dont like Bush or Kerry, but I dislike Bush more. That just about sums up my opinion of both guys.

(I'll also feely admit that I'm not nearly as educated/versed on politics as other other people in this folder seem to be.)

All I'm saying is that when 99% of Grimis' posts are "Look at this thing I found on the internet that says bad things about John Kerry!", it just gets really old. Click on this folder from the main page, and without even scrolling down at all, you can bet that out of the 7 or so threads that show up "above the fold", 5 of them will have been started by Grimis, and most of those are just as I predicted above.

If there was another poster who linked to as many "damning" internet articles & commentaries as Grimis does, but was bashing Bush instead, I would probably get pretty tired of that too.


*(I dont mean to "call you out" at all, I'm just being specific about who I'm talking to. Please dont beat me up.)
JayJayDean
Scrapple
Level: 125

Posts: 1540/4718
EXP: 22011640
For next: 442587

Since: 2.1.02
From: Seattle, WA

Since last post: 7 days
Last activity: 7 hours
AIM:  
Y!:
#14 Posted on 20.8.04 1638.28
Reposted on: 20.8.11 1639.06
    Originally posted by DJ FrostyFreeze
    Pool-Boy*, most of the stuff you said about Democrats on this board (& in general) doesnt really apply to me. Honestly, I dont like Bush or Kerry, but I dislike Bush more. That just about sums up my opinion of both guys.

    (I'll also feely admit that I'm not nearly as educated/versed on politics as other other people in this folder seem to be.)

    All I'm saying is that when 99% of Grimis' posts are "Look at this thing I found on the internet that says bad things about John Kerry!", it just gets really old. Click on this folder from the main page, and without even scrolling down at all, you can bet that out of the 7 or so threads that show up "above the fold", 5 of them will have been started by Grimis, and most of those are just as I predicted above.

    If there was another poster who linked to as many "damning" internet articles & commentaries as Grimis does, but was bashing Bush instead, I would probably get pretty tired of that too.


Frosty, I'm glad I'm not the ONLY one who feels that way. After a while it just becomes noise to tune out. John Kerry - BOO! France - BOO! The UN - BOO!

We get it.
Reverend J Shaft
Liverwurst
Level: 66

Posts: 220/1135
EXP: 2440781
For next: 21083

Since: 25.6.03
From: Home of The Big House

Since last post: 6 days
Last activity: 6 hours
#15 Posted on 20.8.04 1700.17
Reposted on: 20.8.11 1701.34
    Originally posted by JayJayDean
    Frosty, I'm glad I'm not the ONLY one who feels that way. After a while it just becomes noise to tune out. John Kerry - BOO! France - BOO! The UN - BOO!

    We get it.


    Originally posted by JayJayDean elsewhere in Politics
    Your typo is funny because I think Fox News = Conservative "doo".

    Won't this all be irrelevant anyway after they magically "find" bin Laden October 1 or so? ;)



        Originally posted by JayJayDean as a new thread (for pete's sake!) in Politics

        Unwilling participants: Iraqi soccer players angered by Bush campaign ads featuring team

        But they also find it offensive that Bush is using their team for his own gain when they do not support his administration's actions in Iraq. "My problems are not with the American people," says Iraqi soccer coach Adnan Hamad. "They are with what America has done in Iraq: destroy everything. The American army has killed so many people in Iraq. What is freedom when I go to the [national] stadium and there are shootings on the road?"



          Bush - BOO! Conservatives - BOO!

          We get it.

          (edited by Reverend J Shaft on 20.8.04 1800)
PalpatineW
Lap cheong
Level: 77

Posts: 1192/1528
EXP: 4056797
For next: 134351

Since: 2.1.02
From: Getting Rowdy

Since last post: 2766 days
Last activity: 2609 days
AIM:  
#16 Posted on 20.8.04 1703.40
Reposted on: 20.8.11 1705.10
    Originally posted by JayJayDean
      Originally posted by DJ FrostyFreeze
      Pool-Boy*, most of the stuff you said about Democrats on this board (& in general) doesnt really apply to me. Honestly, I dont like Bush or Kerry, but I dislike Bush more. That just about sums up my opinion of both guys.

      (I'll also feely admit that I'm not nearly as educated/versed on politics as other other people in this folder seem to be.)

      All I'm saying is that when 99% of Grimis' posts are "Look at this thing I found on the internet that says bad things about John Kerry!", it just gets really old. Click on this folder from the main page, and without even scrolling down at all, you can bet that out of the 7 or so threads that show up "above the fold", 5 of them will have been started by Grimis, and most of those are just as I predicted above.

      If there was another poster who linked to as many "damning" internet articles & commentaries as Grimis does, but was bashing Bush instead, I would probably get pretty tired of that too.


    Frosty, I'm glad I'm not the ONLY one who feels that way. After a while it just becomes noise to tune out. John Kerry - BOO! France - BOO! The UN - BOO!

    We get it.


So, next time Kerry lies and the nation's largest papers ignore it, we should all just... let it slide? I certainly don't expect you to let the issue of WMD slide; so why should those of us on the other side do the same? The man lied, it's important. And, as others have noted, it's important because that's the way Kerry wanted it.
JayJayDean
Scrapple
Level: 125

Posts: 1542/4718
EXP: 22011640
For next: 442587

Since: 2.1.02
From: Seattle, WA

Since last post: 7 days
Last activity: 7 hours
AIM:  
Y!:
#17 Posted on 20.8.04 1718.51
Reposted on: 20.8.11 1719.07
Aw Geez, you guys!

    Originally posted by RevJ
    A bunch of stuff I said


1. The Fox News thing was FUNNY.
2. Hasn't everyone heard/made the bin Laden joke at one time or another?
3. There wasn't already an Iraqi soccer thread, and I admit a TINY bit of me thought "I wonder what ol' Grimis will say to this."

Some of my FAVORITE people are conservative Republican. Heck, I've NEVER said who I'M voting for, but you assume I hate Republicans and conservatives?

    Originally posted by PalpatineW
    So, next time Kerry lies and the nation's largest papers ignore it, we should all just... let it slide? I certainly don't expect you to let the issue of WMD slide; so why should those of us on the other side do the same? The man lied, it's important. And, as others have noted, it's important because that's the way Kerry wanted it.


Grimis might have the GREATEST POINT EVER, but I most likely would pass right over it due to the sheer volume of the stuff he posts. If someone was posting I LOVE THE YANKEES THE RED SOX SUCK in every other thread in the Baseball forum, I'd probably post so anti-Yankee rhetoric just to even it out, and I'd DEFINITELY get sick of it.
DrOp
Frankfurter
Level: 60

Posts: 655/859
EXP: 1710044
For next: 62744

Since: 2.1.02

Since last post: 2171 days
Last activity: 1038 days
#18 Posted on 20.8.04 1730.59
Reposted on: 20.8.11 1732.18
I guess a greater understanding could be reached if we could agree that lying is bad. To wit:

Just because some people say Kerry has lied about his war service, does not automatically make Bush a better choice.

Just because some people say Bush lied about WMD doesn't automatically make Bush a better choice.

And please stop with all the "It's Kerry's fault since he made his service record the focal point of his campaign. NO. The conservatives were trying to make him look weak on military issues first.

Call Kerry a flip-flopper or a liar. I don't really care. I would rather have an intelligent President who's entire career wasn't saved by a national tragedy and a war based on fabricated evidence.

Lost in all of this debate is the fact that One Colin Powell is highly upset with Bush and his intelligence people since he basically feels like they used him and put him out there to make false points that no one else could make with any credibility. I've read stuff that goes as far to say that he would prefer Bush lose so he doesn't have to quit on him.

In the end, Lying to the World is BAD.
"Hey, let's make up some shit and start a war!"
"Okay."
Pool-Boy
Lap cheong
Level: 81

Posts: 1531/1759
EXP: 4894752
For next: 98118

Since: 1.8.02
From: Huntington Beach, CA

Since last post: 1252 days
Last activity: 18 days
AIM:  
ICQ:  
Y!:
#19 Posted on 20.8.04 1804.10
Reposted on: 20.8.11 1805.30
Your post there is a perfect example of both rational and irrational arguments from democrats - the irrational ones being the most frustrating.

    Originally posted by DrOp
    I guess a greater understanding could be reached if we could agree that lying is bad. To wit:

    Just because some people say Kerry has lied about his war service, does not automatically make Bush a better choice.

    Just because some people say Bush lied about WMD doesn't automatically make Bush a better choice.

    And please stop with all the "It's Kerry's fault since he made his service record the focal point of his campaign. NO. The conservatives were trying to make him look weak on military issues first.



This was a great start, and a good "argument," if you ask me. I would like more solid examples of how Conservatives tried to make him look weak on military issues (though I know - the whole voting against the military systems thing). It is a good point - Kerry probably used his Vietnam service to counter those Republican arguments. Good and valid point, and worth discussing. I think his choice has backfired on him, but the explaination is a good one.

    Originally posted by DrOp

    Call Kerry a flip-flopper or a liar. I don't really care. I would rather have an intelligent President who's entire career wasn't saved by a national tragedy and a war based on fabricated evidence.

    ...
    In the end, Lying to the World is BAD.
    "Hey, let's make up some shit and start a war!"
    "Okay."


Here is where it gets irrational in a hurry, and the #1 reason why people respond to you, and those like you with these arguments, by saying that you are nothing but a Bush basher. To start with, you say Bush "lied" about the WMDs. Best case scenario, he was 100% right, and reports of them moving to Syria and other parts of the world are totally accurate. Worst case scenario, he acted on bad intelligence from our own services and information from our allies. Neither situation makes him a liar. So even then - you oppose Bush because you don't think we should have gone into Iraq - but you support his opponent, who has openly admitted that knowing what he does today, he would not have done one thing different! He STILL would have gone into Iraq. How is that logical?

And Bush's career was saved by 9-11? Again, HOW? 99% of the venom spit at him right now is from the left, who are using 9-11 as an opportunity to say how bad of a president he is. The economic recovery from the recession was delayed for who knows how long due to 9-11, had that not happened, the economy would be golden right now. Bush would have focused more on campaigning about his actions against corperate fraud (how many criminal CEOs have been indicted under Bush?), and other, more positive issues on the homefront that would have made his re-election all the more sure.

Rational and Irrational. I prefer the rational debate... why is it that most liberals seem so reluctant to come forward with that?
fuelinjected
Banger
Level: 97

Posts: 2371/2679
EXP: 9125315
For next: 192043

Since: 12.10.02
From: Canada

Since last post: 3198 days
Last activity: 3198 days
#20 Posted on 20.8.04 1815.15
Reposted on: 20.8.11 1818.32

    Your post there is a perfect example of both rational and irrational arguments from democrats - the irrational ones being the most frustrating.



    Rational and Irrational. I prefer the rational debate... why is it that most liberals seem so reluctant to come forward with that?


Democrats or liberals? Its interesting to watch and see how right-wing Republicans first demonized the term "Liberal" and then began using Democrat and Liberal as interchangeable.

There's plenty of liberal people all over the world and there's plenty of liberals in the US who aren't Democrats.


(edited by fuelinjected on 20.8.04 1615)
Pages: 1 2 3 4 NextThread ahead: In Spite of Us
Next thread: Nearly 36 Million Americans Live in Poverty
Previous thread: Immigration policy
(721 newer) Next thread | Previous thread
The 7 - Current Events & Politics - Swift Boat vets launch ad # 2Register and log in to post!

The W™ message board - 7 year recycle

ZimBoard
©2001-2014 Brothers Zim
This old hunk of junk rendered your page in 0.219 seconds.