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23.11.07 0007
The 7 - Movies & TV - World Series of Poker
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MoeGates
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#21 Posted on 22.8.04 1432.21
Reposted on: 22.8.11 1434.01
This brings up the dirty little secret of poker - it's a LOT of luck. Yes, if you play over a very long period of time, the better players will have a legitimate edge, but in one-shot tournaments - heck, even in the entire World Series with all the events - it's entirely possible that the best players are going to lose early the whole time and that some schmoe is going to take the whole thing. That's why it's a gambling game, not an athletic competition.

There's a lot of other games like this. I play a lot of Bridge - which is very, very skill oriented, much closer to Chess than Poker - and every once in a while in an event I beat the pros even though I'm still pretty much a lightweight. I play Backgammon too, and if you put me - a rank amateur - up against the best player in the world, I'd still probably have about a 20-30% shot of beating him just due to the luck of dice.

That's just the way the game is. Players and fans should just accept this for what it is. Amateurs are going to beat pros - a lot. It's just the nature of the game. Insisting that winning a WSOP event takes mostly skill and knowlege when it's probably 80/20 luck is disingenuous.

chazworthington
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#22 Posted on 22.8.04 1719.26
Reposted on: 22.8.11 1720.00
    Originally posted by MedallaGuy
    Moneymaker shows why he was a fluke when he went all in A-10 after the flop when he didn't hit anything. To early on a tournament to bluff. I do like how they are focusing on all tables not only on the TV table, it adds to the experience. More to come...

    (edited by MedallaGuy on 18.8.04 1843)


I recall reading that shortly before that hand, Moneymaker's stack took a huge hit when an opponent got two runners on the turn and river to outdraw him.

Given that "coverage" of this hand started post flop, I don't think we have enough information to know actually what he was trying to do. He might have been on tilt, or he might have been pot committed. Or he might have been bluffing.
spf
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#23 Posted on 23.8.04 0932.23
Reposted on: 23.8.11 0932.27
    Originally posted by MoeGates
    This brings up the dirty little secret of poker - it's a LOT of luck. Yes, if you play over a very long period of time, the better players will have a legitimate edge, but in one-shot tournaments - heck, even in the entire World Series with all the events - it's entirely possible that the best players are going to lose early the whole time and that some schmoe is going to take the whole thing. That's why it's a gambling game, not an athletic competition.

    There's a lot of other games like this. I play a lot of Bridge - which is very, very skill oriented, much closer to Chess than Poker - and every once in a while in an event I beat the pros even though I'm still pretty much a lightweight. I play Backgammon too, and if you put me - a rank amateur - up against the best player in the world, I'd still probably have about a 20-30% shot of beating him just due to the luck of dice.

    That's just the way the game is. Players and fans should just accept this for what it is. Amateurs are going to beat pros - a lot. It's just the nature of the game. Insisting that winning a WSOP event takes mostly skill and knowlege when it's probably 80/20 luck is disingenuous.



I would argue that this logic applies mostly to tournament poker, much more so than a regular cash ring game. In a tournament 100 good plays can be cracked by one horribly bad beat. Thus allowing much more of a leveling of the playing field between pros and amateurs. I mean hell, if I get lucky enough to get someone going all-in with KK and I happen to get AA, I'm going to get out 4 out of 5 times, no matter how good you are. In a ring game though, that guy can buy back in and slowly pick you back apart. That's why you hear about amateurs winning tournaments, but never really making a living as poker pros. The real pros are the ones who do prove that "the long run" is real and tangible in gambling. That's why so many of the pros are just stunned at the thought of a 7,500 person WSOP main event next year, as Harrah's was predicting after this year's final. With that many people to go through, it really is a crap shoot. You will need to be VERY good and VERY VERY lucky.

Also, may I say Ellix Powers (the guy mentioned who was pissing off McManus in the limit tourney episode) is my new poker hero? Because he is. He put everyone on tilt except for Hennigan, who is just far too cool for that sort of gamesmanship to work on him.

Tony Stewart
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#24 Posted on 27.8.04 2345.26
Reposted on: 27.8.11 2345.58
Luck plays a part in it sure, but seeing the wiley old man (the name escapes me) take the leader of the Crew, Howard Ledderer and everyone in between down on Tuesday shows that there is still pleanty of skill involved. Part of that skill was the fact that he doesn't overreact when he wins a big hand or when he loses a big hand. Sure, it's a game of chance, but you can tilt the odds in your favor by presenting yourself in a certain way.
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#25 Posted on 28.8.04 1552.18
Reposted on: 28.8.11 1553.23
    Originally posted by Tony Stewart
    Luck plays a part in it sure, but seeing the wiley old man (the name escapes me) take the leader of the Crew, Howard Ledderer and everyone in between down on Tuesday shows that there is still pleanty of skill involved. Part of that skill was the fact that he doesn't overreact when he wins a big hand or when he loses a big hand. Sure, it's a game of chance, but you can tilt the odds in your favor by presenting yourself in a certain way.


Doyle Brunson
chazworthington
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#26 Posted on 28.8.04 2329.23
Reposted on: 28.8.11 2329.42
Although Doyle outdrew Howard, whereas he outplayed the crew. And I actually agree with a comment that Norman Chad made about Doyle not doing any victory dances/antics when he takes down a huge pot. Contrast that to the kid who got up and almost freaked out when his aces were against KQo preflop. I almost wanted to smack him.

spf
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#27 Posted on 29.8.04 0828.40
Reposted on: 29.8.11 0828.59
    Originally posted by chazworthington
    Although Doyle outdrew Howard, whereas he outplayed the crew. And I actually agree with a comment that Norman Chad made about Doyle not doing any victory dances/antics when he takes down a huge pot. Contrast that to the kid who got up and almost freaked out when his aces were against KQo preflop. I almost wanted to smack him.



One thing to remember is that a lot of the new wave of poker players have not often spent a ton of time playing at actual live tables. They've spent countless hours sitting in front of their computers at UltimateBet or PokerStars or something, able to dance around in their underwear when their 3-outer comes through on the river.
redsoxnation
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#28 Posted on 29.8.04 0908.10
Reposted on: 29.8.11 0911.04
    Originally posted by spf2119
      Originally posted by MoeGates
      This brings up the dirty little secret of poker - it's a LOT of luck. Yes, if you play over a very long period of time, the better players will have a legitimate edge, but in one-shot tournaments - heck, even in the entire World Series with all the events - it's entirely possible that the best players are going to lose early the whole time and that some schmoe is going to take the whole thing. That's why it's a gambling game, not an athletic competition.

      There's a lot of other games like this. I play a lot of Bridge - which is very, very skill oriented, much closer to Chess than Poker - and every once in a while in an event I beat the pros even though I'm still pretty much a lightweight. I play Backgammon too, and if you put me - a rank amateur - up against the best player in the world, I'd still probably have about a 20-30% shot of beating him just due to the luck of dice.

      That's just the way the game is. Players and fans should just accept this for what it is. Amateurs are going to beat pros - a lot. It's just the nature of the game. Insisting that winning a WSOP event takes mostly skill and knowlege when it's probably 80/20 luck is disingenuous.



    I would argue that this logic applies mostly to tournament poker, much more so than a regular cash ring game. In a tournament 100 good plays can be cracked by one horribly bad beat. Thus allowing much more of a leveling of the playing field between pros and amateurs. I mean hell, if I get lucky enough to get someone going all-in with KK and I happen to get AA, I'm going to get out 4 out of 5 times, no matter how good you are. In a ring game though, that guy can buy back in and slowly pick you back apart. That's why you hear about amateurs winning tournaments, but never really making a living as poker pros. The real pros are the ones who do prove that "the long run" is real and tangible in gambling. That's why so many of the pros are just stunned at the thought of a 7,500 person WSOP main event next year, as Harrah's was predicting after this year's final. With that many people to go through, it really is a crap shoot. You will need to be VERY good and VERY VERY lucky.

    Also, may I say Ellix Powers (the guy mentioned who was pissing off McManus in the limit tourney episode) is my new poker hero? Because he is. He put everyone on tilt except for Hennigan, who is just far too cool for that sort of gamesmanship to work on him.









7,500 people does make it more of a crap shoot. However, there is a huge benefit. 7,500 people means 75,000,000 is being played for (less after the casino takes their cut). Contrast that to last year, where 837 people would make the take 8,370,000 (less after the casino takes their cut). Far tougher to win, but if you do win, it would be an incredible payoff.
Roy.
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#29 Posted on 29.8.04 1005.01
Reposted on: 29.8.11 1007.41
    Originally posted by spf2119
    One thing to remember is that a lot of the new wave of poker players have not often spent a ton of time playing at actual live tables. They've spent countless hours sitting in front of their computers at UltimateBet or PokerStars or something, able to dance around in their underwear when their 3-outer comes through on the river.


And that's the funny thing that I don't understand. I'm awful, terrible at poker online. I've tried it, and I lose horribly. Meanwhile, I've done quite well for myself in Atlantic City at the poker tables. I don't understand it at all.

Meanwhile, unless it's a win at the main event final table, I don't think that you should show your opponent up if you win. If anything, when you have aces, you should be thanking the poker Gods and hoping that you play the hand right. And I've noticed a lot of these online guys don't play Aces correctly.

Of course, I'm going by Super/System by Doyle Brunson, so I do have a soft spot for the Texas Dolly and his style of playing.

(edited by Roy. on 29.8.04 1105)
spf
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#30 Posted on 30.8.04 0927.27
Reposted on: 30.8.11 0927.41
A couple of things:

    Originally posted by redsoxnation
    7,500 people does make it more of a crap shoot. However, there is a huge benefit. 7,500 people means 75,000,000 is being played for (less after the casino takes their cut). Contrast that to last year, where 837 people would make the take 8,370,000 (less after the casino takes their cut). Far tougher to win, but if you do win, it would be an incredible payoff.

IIRC, there is no rake on WSOP events. Binion's (and at least last year I assume Harrah's) always figured to make their money back by raking the cash games that sprout up all around the casino during the WSOP. I know as of 2 years ago the entry fee for WSOP was $10,000+$1 (ceremonial drop). Also, with winnings that large the tip pool (all winners are expected to toke between 2-6% of their winnings) for the dealers and floormen is substantial.

    Originally posted by Roy.
    And that's the funny thing that I don't understand. I'm awful, terrible at poker online. I've tried it, and I lose horribly. Meanwhile, I've done quite well for myself in Atlantic City at the poker tables. I don't understand it at all.

The games are so different. I am much better at live poker. I get less distracted, I play more disciplined, and I feel like I have a better read on people if I can see them and hear them. Online gets to be very much No Fold 'Em Hold 'Em sometimes, which can drive me batty. You have to be a masochist to play limit hold-em tourneys online.

evilwaldo
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#31 Posted on 1.9.04 0815.29
Reposted on: 1.9.11 0816.00
    Originally posted by spf2119
    A couple of things:



        Originally posted by Roy.
        And that's the funny thing that I don't understand. I'm awful, terrible at poker online. I've tried it, and I lose horribly. Meanwhile, I've done quite well for myself in Atlantic City at the poker tables. I don't understand it at all.

      The games are so different. I am much better at live poker. I get less distracted, I play more disciplined, and I feel like I have a better read on people if I can see them and hear them. Online gets to be very much No Fold 'Em Hold 'Em sometimes, which can drive me batty. You have to be a masochist to play limit hold-em tourneys online.




    Same here. My online game at Hold-em has been eh and Omaha quite good but when I was out in Vegas a few weeks ago I was doing fairly well at Hold-em.
A Fan
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#32 Posted on 1.9.04 1122.06
Reposted on: 1.9.11 1122.26
The wife and I have been watching it this entire week. I saw most of this weekend, so I know who the final tweleve are, but we have to wade through this week's episodes to get to the final tweleve. I hope that spoiler is wrong about who wins, because I really don't like that player. I like everyone else I've seen, they remind me of like the Dirty Dozen. Doyle, the experience old timer, Moneymaker, the grizzled tough talking, MurphDog, the young rookie, Annie Duke, the bitch, Jesus as Jesus and rounding it out with Powers as the down on his luck hero. They are just a great cast of characters.

How does one get into the poker tournament scene, I am looking for a game and I think the online stuff is crap compared to the real thing. If anyone knows how to find a game please let me know.
MedallaGuy
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#33 Posted on 1.9.04 1150.14
Reposted on: 1.9.11 1153.02
www.pokerpages.com usually has the best content of tournament play going on around the states.

Yesterday was the "bad beat" show...jesus how many 4 community card flushes were there!
Tony Stewart
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#34 Posted on 3.9.04 0616.31
Reposted on: 3.9.11 0616.47
I was playing Hold em on Yahoo and it really wasn't all that exciting with the small bets and crappy players. Is there a site out there that is more fun to play with just play money of course.

I was glad to see that Fossil Guy beat up on that Mr. Selfimplosion. That guy is more of a jerk than Helmuth.

- That little scene where they were golfing was pretty brutal. I hope they don't always throw around bets like that.

- Did Hennigan even enter the Main Event or was he an early casualty of chance?
Roy.
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#35 Posted on 3.9.04 0825.11
Reposted on: 3.9.11 0825.33
    Originally posted by A Fan
    How does one get into the poker tournament scene, I am looking for a game and I think the online stuff is crap compared to the real thing. If anyone knows how to find a game please let me know.


What I did was simply find a casino. The Borgata (theborgata.com) has daily tournaments, and, depending on where I'm living at the time, it's 2-5 hours from my house/apartment. Your best bet is to find a casino close to you, really, and see if they have tournaments. To get into the WSOP or WPT events, you need to look for satellite tournaments to win a seat (or, if you have the money, buy a seat for 10 grand or so).

The one thing that bugs me about a lot of tournaments is the unlimited Re-buys in the early levels. I can't tell you how many times I've gone into the break with a large amount of chips, only to be short-stacked when I got back. And since you can't Re-Buy at the Borgata if you've got over, say 2000 dollars in chips (what you usually start with), it's almost smart to lose money so you can Re-buy a whole bunch of money and bully people.
spf
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#36 Posted on 3.9.04 0854.41
Reposted on: 3.9.11 0855.02
    Originally posted by Tony Stewart
    I was playing Hold em on Yahoo and it really wasn't all that exciting with the small bets and crappy players. Is there a site out there that is more fun to play with just play money of course?

Any of the main poker sites that you see advertised during WSOP or WPT events all have play money options. I won't link to them here since technically the link could also be used for activities of questionable legality depending on your locale, but you should be familiar with the names. If you want any advice on where to go, PM me.
BWT
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#37 Posted on 3.9.04 0948.02
Reposted on: 3.9.11 0948.02
I play on line with one the said sites and well it really is two different games. First I have only played with play money on these poker sites and not only is it less competitive then a game with friends but the skill level is way off. Right away there is alot of trash talking in the chat feature and I have noticed that the trash talkers are usually the worst players. Then the first hand of the game about 90% of the time someone goes all in and is immediately called by at least two people. So right off the bat your down to seven or eight players left. I know for me the way I play on line differs from the way I play in person. On line due to the play money I play more hands and call more even when I don't think I'm going to win. I cant comment on the real money but I'm sure many of the things I have said apply for that as well.
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#38 Posted on 5.9.04 0524.22
Reposted on: 5.9.11 0524.36
    Originally posted by Tony Stewart
    I was playing Hold em on Yahoo and it really wasn't all that exciting with the small bets and crappy players. Is there a site out there that is more fun to play with just play money of course.


Ugh, Yahoo Hold Em is the WORST. It's a hugely popular site so it's full of idiots and the "money" has no value so everyone just raises forever. It's not even real poker in my opinion. As for finding a good free site, I have good news and bad news. The bad news is that even the best free online poker games will not be like real money games and the stuff you're watching on TV. There's no substitute for real money and how it changes the way people play the game. Plus if you're a player with a fair bit of talent, why the hell would you be playing for free? With the poker popularity boom there's never been a bigger pool of bad players to take money from.

The good news is you can find some pretty good free games. The key is finding games that while "free" allow players to play for something that has some slim value. www.pokerpages.com is the best in my opinion. This is going to sound like a shill but I play there a lot. You download the free software and register and bammo. The program allows you to play for money, pay to enter a "Poker School" service or just play for free. The free ring games (One table games that never end where people come and go into free seats at the ten seat table) are ok but the real strength is their tournaments. They run HUGE tournaments every few hours, anywhere from 200 to 800 people enter them. They have a similar system to the World Series, with the blinds and antes going up every ten minutes or so, players getting reseated as they're eliminated and they even have breaks every hour or so. As for the play itself, some of the tournaments give the top 27 placers points which can be redeemed for a little actual money if you get a ton of them. All the other tournaments monitor your placings and at the end of every month, the best players are given free entries into their little Poker School thing. Now, because you're actually playing with something that has a tiny bit of value, people play more seriously. There will always be a bunch of yahoos who get eliminated quickly at first and it still won't be exactly like real money poker but it's the closest you'll get cheapskate.

Now as a second choice there's www.pogo.com. That's a popular site that lets you play all sorts of free games and win little tokens doing it. Since the tokens can be used to buy entries into contests they have a tiny bit of value. They have four player five card draw which can sometimes be fun if you find the right players and they also just launched a Hold'Em game but you have to pay a couple bucks a month to join their members club to play it.

The last option is go to any free site at all and play exclusively with friends. Poker is always fun with people you know. Even with people you only know through the internet!
drjayphd
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#39 Posted on 6.9.04 0239.59
Reposted on: 6.9.11 0240.36
    Originally posted by Hobbes
    Ugh, Yahoo Hold Em is the WORST. It's a hugely popular site so it's full of idiots and the "money" has no value so everyone just raises forever. It's not even real poker in my opinion.


That, my friend, is the wordiest word that ever worded through Wordington. It's just So. Annoying. When two people get into a pissing contest and re-raise until they can't raise any more. Good thing there's limits, but between that and the people just walking away instead of leaving the table properly... UGH.
NickBockwinkelFan
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#40 Posted on 7.9.04 2250.30
Reposted on: 7.9.11 2255.35
I wish somebody would call Mathias Andersson Pizza Face.
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