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16.9.07 1844
The 7 - Current Events & Politics - McCain may propose National ID Card
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Grimis
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#1 Posted on 17.8.04 0623.13
Reposted on: 17.8.11 0624.58
Uh-oh...
    Originally posted by Leslie Miller on 8/16 for the AP
    Committee Chairman John McCain, R-Ariz., who said he would file bills to implement the commission's recommendations, indicated he was interested in a national ID card.

    "Isn't that a fundamental issue we're going to have to address as a nation?" McCain asked Kean and Commission Vice Chairman Lee Hamilton, who also testified.

    The American Civil Liberties Union says a standard driver's license would lead to a national database that would allow the government to keep track of where people go.

    "We're objecting to the nationalization of the driver's license and databases that are going to have to be implemented in order to track driver's licenses," said Marvin Johnson, legislative counsel for the ACLU.
One of those rare times I side with the ACLU. This is absolutely a disaster waiting to happen. The only good thing is the fact that we have made it this long after 9/11 without a serious national ID card proposal getting too far. Unfortunately, the public at large tends not to heed the words of Ben Franklin, so public opinion may actually support this boondoggle...
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ekedolphin
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#2 Posted on 17.8.04 0645.40
Reposted on: 17.8.11 0646.03
I agree with the ACLU, and I agree with Grimis, and you know how that makes me crazy.

Yeah, a national ID card is one step removed from having every American citizen microchippd to monitor their exact location every second of every day. Bad, bad idea.
dMr
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#3 Posted on 17.8.04 1001.15
Reposted on: 17.8.11 1002.53
    Originally posted by ekedolphin
    I agree with the ACLU, and I agree with Grimis, and you know how that makes me crazy.

    Yeah, a national ID card is one step removed from having every American citizen microchippd to monitor their exact location every second of every day. Bad, bad idea.


I've never understood that argument. The two things are worlds apart. Provided the National ID card is just an official form of identification that states name, date of birth and perhaps address, whats the problem? The only people you'd have to show it to presumably are the police and other relevant officials and (at least over here) its illegal to be lying to them about any of those details anyways.

I mean if they want to start having the little buggers transmitting, or storing swathes of personal information then I'd get pissed, but a little bit of plastic with a photo and a hologram don't sound any more scary than say, a driving license to me.
Von Maestro
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#4 Posted on 17.8.04 1040.13
Reposted on: 17.8.11 1041.09
    Originally posted by dMr
    I've never understood that argument. The two things are worlds apart. Provided the National ID card is just an official form of identification that states name, date of birth and perhaps address, whats the problem? The only people you'd have to show it to presumably are the police and other relevant officials and (at least over here) its illegal to be lying to them about any of those details anyways.

    I mean if they want to start having the little buggers transmitting, or storing swathes of personal information then I'd get pissed, but a little bit of plastic with a photo and a hologram don't sound any more scary than say, a driving license to me.


This was the country's attitude when they introduced Social Security Numbers. It would only be used to track the amount you contribute to your Social Security account, nothing more, they said.

Now the government basically knows about every penny you spend/earn, & you can't get a cup of coffee without someone asking for your SSN so they can see a picture of your entire financial history.

This is a classic Slippery Slope...
dMr
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#5 Posted on 17.8.04 1052.21
Reposted on: 17.8.11 1052.22
    Originally posted by Von Maestro
    This was the country's attitude when they introduced Social Security Numbers. It would only be used to track the amount you contribute to your Social Security account, nothing more, they said.

    Now the government basically knows about every penny you spend/earn, & you can't get a cup of coffee without someone asking for your SSN so they can see a picture of your entire financial history.

    This is a classic Slippery Slope...


I guess I just see the things as totally different. Like I say, the 'first step' toward said slope is as good as there in the form of a drivers license. It would be just as easy for them to make slow and subtle changes to that as it would an ID card. True you don't HAVE to own a drivers license, but its more or less imperative in many lines of work.

And as a means to monitor someones whereabouts they would suck even if they DID transmit signals. I mean, if you're going to make with the naughty leave the fucker at home. I dunno, maybe I place too much faith in government, but I'm not one for buying into the whole Big Brother thing to this extent. Getting from 'bit of plastic with name' to 'evil microchip transmitter of all things' seems to be more than a little bit far fetched to me.
Jaguar
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#6 Posted on 17.8.04 1106.20
Reposted on: 17.8.11 1106.21
The national ID card makes me nervous. It just conjures up images of Nazis standing at border crossings. "Your papers please..."

Thank my dad for instilling that particular paranoia in me.

-Jag
rockdotcom_2.0
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#7 Posted on 17.8.04 1128.46
Reposted on: 17.8.11 1129.02
I dont understand what the problem is. Doesnt everyone here have a Drivers License? I do, and everybody I know has one. Just about every responsible citizen Ive ever seen or heard of has one. So why does it become a problem on a National level?
Grimis
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#8 Posted on 17.8.04 1148.27
Reposted on: 17.8.11 1148.38
    Originally posted by rockdotcom_2.0
    I dont understand what the problem is. Doesnt everyone here have a Drivers License? I do, and everybody I know has one. Just about every responsible citizen Ive ever seen or heard of has one. So why does it become a problem on a National level?
For the same reason that Jaguar said. It is only an identification card if you choose to use it that way, if that makes any sense. You do not have to have a drivers license(or an MVA issue ID card) but you choose to.

I don't want to have papers that serve as my internal passport a la the USSR...
StaggerLee
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#9 Posted on 17.8.04 1200.48
Reposted on: 17.8.11 1202.08
Well, the government cant locate kids in foster care, but some people think they will be able to track you down and see what you are doing because you carry an ID card? And, if you are really worried about your SSN being able to track you, remember thats only when you use credit for something. Pay cash, and you gots no problems! I mean, whats the government going to do? See if you have financed a Toyota or a Ford? How is THAT going to help them keep tabs on you?
SKLOKAZOID
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#10 Posted on 17.8.04 1201.37
Reposted on: 17.8.11 1203.32
Imagine the hassle if you accidentally put your ID card through the wash and mess up the electronic GPS chip they use to track you. In instances where you don't have your ID card (left your wallet at home? Oops!), you could be subject to arrest or a lengthy detainment, which isn't a good thing.

You may need to have a driver's license to drive a car, but if the national ID card was ever put in place, you'd need one to walk outside your house.

Besides, an implanted thought-controlling microchip is the way to go.
OlFuzzyBastard
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#11 Posted on 17.8.04 1313.02
Reposted on: 17.8.11 1313.18
I'm assuming we're talking about a photo ID here. I mean, otherwise, this thing would be completely worthless as it would be impossible to know for sure if you're dealing with the true holder of the card.

With that in mind, even ignoring the potential assault on our civil liberties this could (and, let's face it, all but assuredly would) entail, has anyone stopped to figure out the logistics of this thing? Are they proposing the entire country getting in line at the DMV? How the hell could this possibly get done effectively? It just doesn't make any realistic sense.

And, yes, I hate disagreeing with John McCain while agreeing with Grimis too.
redsoxnation
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#12 Posted on 17.8.04 1439.05
Reposted on: 17.8.11 1439.37
So at best, this provides another layer of government waste. At worst, its Gestapo/KGB tactics getting sanctioned by the federal government. What the hell happened to my beloved small government Republican Party? We came to power in '94 looking to eliminate useless government agencies, not to create them and turn the country into a police state. Its getting scary that the nutcase public access shows that make a little sense when I'm drunk are now making complete sense when I'm sober.
StaggerLee
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#13 Posted on 17.8.04 1611.22
Reposted on: 17.8.11 1613.44
What 'civil liberties' are taken away simply be requiring you to be issued a piece of plastic?
DrDirt
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#14 Posted on 17.8.04 1657.34
Reposted on: 17.8.11 1659.01
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    What 'civil liberties' are taken away simply be requiring you to be issued a piece of plastic?


We have the right in this country not to be tracked by the government. We have the right in this country to keep the intrusion of the government in our lives to a minimum. This is but another step in the terrorists winning as we surrender our civil liberties because "Hey what's the harm." The law of unintended consequenses comes nto play.

The Nazi Germany and USSR parallels are right on. Even if the government does nothing with them start imagining the possibilities of their misuse.
SKLOKAZOID
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#15 Posted on 17.8.04 1702.15
Reposted on: 17.8.11 1704.03
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    What 'civil liberties' are taken away simply be requiring you to be issued a piece of plastic?


Essentially, if you don't go and get your National ID card, you waive certain rights by not carrying it or owning one because you can't "prove" you're a United States citizen. So, it puts people's civil liberties hostage if they don't do what the government asks them to do. It may be something as simple as a temporary detainment, but it's still a substantial burden on the individual.

I also think that the driver's license parallel holds merit. You don't need one, as Grimis said, and the only thing you waive by not owning one is your legal ability to operate an automobile. This card requires you to carry it to be a United States citizen, which is something you're supposed to have at birth.

(edited by SKLOKAZOID on 17.8.04 1629)
Dahak
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#16 Posted on 17.8.04 1812.06
Reposted on: 17.8.11 1812.24
Redsoxnation said it best. It will either add another 100,000 Federal employees (yeah), be used as a KGB type of control, or somewhere in the middle. None of those appeal to me.
rockdotcom_2.0
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#17 Posted on 17.8.04 1953.14
Reposted on: 17.8.11 1954.33
I dont see where its some kind of control issue. As it stands now without an ID card you really cant do too much anyway. You cant go into a bar, you cant open a bank account, you cant travel on an airplane, you cant cash a check, you cant do anything without an ID. I dont see how a national ID card would be a drastic change over what we have now. Were not talking about a system where they scan the card everwhere you go. Im all about keeping my civil liberties, but I dont see how this is a drastic change to our freedoms.
StaggerLee
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#18 Posted on 18.8.04 0345.07
Reposted on: 18.8.11 0345.33
Well, the article never said anything about coming up with a national ID card. It only talked about making some federal regulations that would be required for drivers licenses. Such as birth certificates being used to verify identity and nationality.

A far cry from some big national tracking database.
Grimis
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#19 Posted on 18.8.04 0639.39
Reposted on: 18.8.11 0643.54
    Originally posted by rockdotcom_2.0
    I dont see how a national ID card would be a drastic change over what we have now. Were not talking about a system where they scan the card everwhere you go. Im all about keeping my civil liberties, but I dont see how this is a drastic change to our freedoms.
Because a national identfiication card will expand in scope expenetially so far that you won't be able to get money out of an ATM without it, you won't be able to buy a car, you won't be able to get to your office building, etc. Everything will be tracked by the government. The role of Government expand exponetially every year and government tends to keep their foot stuck in the door once its in there. And I, for one, would prefer to avoid such an Orwellian situation, thank you very much.
DrOp
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#20 Posted on 18.8.04 0700.42
Reposted on: 18.8.11 0701.53
    Originally posted by Grimis
    Because a national identfiication card will expand in scope expenetially so far that you won't be able to get money out of an ATM without it, you won't be able to buy a car, you won't be able to get to your office building, etc. Everything will be tracked by the government. The role of Government expand exponetially every year and government tends to keep their foot stuck in the door once its in there. And I, for one, would prefer to avoid such an Orwellian situation, thank you very much.


I'm not disagreeing with you Grimis, but aren't there already proposals to do this type of this with current driver's licences? I swear I've heard talk of actually using the rear magnetic strip so that eventually you have one card for everything (bank, credit, driving, ID). Most of the newer licences have basic features that are all similar (holographic covers, double pictures, etc.) Call me a cynic, but I've always felt that most of our "privacy" was really an illusion. They can track you now by credit card and ATM use, not to mention the GPS systems in all new cell phones.

(edited by Keeper on 19.8.04 1624)
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