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The 7 - Current Events & Politics - Kerry's Cambodian Christmas
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Pool-Boy
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#21 Posted on 10.8.04 1816.24
Reposted on: 10.8.11 1816.39
You just proved my point. Veterans supporting Kerry are heroes telling the truth. Veterans against Kerry are "GOP Shock Troops" who are obviously lying. Their stories are fiction, because you don't like them. Pro-Kerry stories are heartfelt and real (NEVER staged! No!) but anti-Kerry stories are political spin. Ideal world you live in, there....

The only issues I hear John Kerry talking about are the imaginary job losses, about how he will get Europe to shoulder the burden in Iraq (which they flat out rejected already, even if Kerry is in office), and a whole lot of partisain platitudes. No mention of real specifics - nothing beyond "Bush sucks" gets more than a few minutes of his time. I mean, hell, if you were to break up what Kerry discusses in a pie chart, 75% of it would be Vietnam, 24% would be general unfocused Bush Bashing, .5% would be him blaming gaffs in his campaign on one of his staffers, the secret service, or some other government agency (trains not stopping, him falling of his bike, NASA photos), and the rest of the time he hints at doing better at being president. But really, I hear no details. And I WANT to hear details! Man, 4 months ago, Kerry had a real shot at convincing me to vote against Bush. I hate Bush's immigration policy, I don't like how Homeland Security is being given nothing more than lip-service, and I think the Iraq campaign could have been entered into a little better (of course, I think we should have gone in quicker with less talk about WMDs and bowing to the UN, something Kerry believes the opposite about), but Democrats aren't talking about issues. They are Bush bashing, and it turns me off. Hate the guy all you want, but he has done some POSITIVE things for the country, and all I see out of the Democrats is a party of people that will think anything and everything a Republican supports is evil. Job growth? BAH! Republican! IT MUST BE BAD! And so on.

Kerry had one moment for me where I thought he had promise - where he actually had the guts to talk to the Spanish-speaking media and say that he opposed Drivers Licenses for illegal aliens. Then he had to go and throw that right out the window 2 hours later by having his staffers back off the comment.

Kerry has waffled on every important issue, and in my mind, that makes him unfit to be President. Hate Bush all you want, but at least the man makes a decision and sticks with it. You can't lead by checking which way the wind blows, and changing your opinions based on who you speak to. That isn't flexibility, that is spineless and shows a lack of vision.

Democrats picked the wrong guy, plain and simple. Flaming Bush over imaginary issues isn't going to change that fact. I just can't get over the attitude that EVERYONE with a D next to their name is automatically better suited to be President than Bush. When you start from that position, real debate over the issues is impossible and, if I may steal one of the left's favorite buzz words, divisive.

And it is going to cost you in November.


(edited by Pool-Boy on 10.8.04 1620)
SeVen â„¢
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#22 Posted on 10.8.04 1829.02
Reposted on: 10.8.11 1830.27
I am a republican (storm trooper) but the only way I will vote for Bush (voted for Nader 2000) is if Cheney steps down as V.P. at the Republican Convention for health reasons and McCain (the only reason I went Republican) accepts the V.P. Which will never happen, I think McCain behind closed doors hates Bush. And I actually like Bush. I don't like his handlers. Pool-Boy was right, I am actually going to vote for this puss Kerry. Maybe there will be some kind of scandal when he becomes president, like the media finding out his wife is a man in drag and he has to step down, then Edwards will be president. At this point that is best I can hope for.
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#23 Posted on 10.8.04 1835.58
Reposted on: 10.8.11 1836.16
    Originally posted by Pool-Boy
    You just proved my point. Veterans supporting Kerry are heroes telling the truth. Veterans against Kerry are "GOP Shock Troops" who are obviously lying. Their stories are fiction, because you don't like them. Pro-Kerry stories are heartfelt and real (NEVER staged! No!) but anti-Kerry stories are political spin. Ideal world you live in, there


Well, considering how the Swiftboat Vet's claims fly in the face of the US NAVY's documented description of the events, yeah I think that most of them are pretty much lying. If there was any discrepancy with what happened in Vietnam then the Navy and the DOD would investigate it. As it stands now, the arguments of the SBVT carry no weight and are just for smear.
whatever
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#24 Posted on 10.8.04 2207.44
Reposted on: 10.8.11 2210.50
    Originally posted by SeVen ™
    I am a republican (storm trooper) but the only way I will vote for Bush (voted for Nader 2000) is if Cheney steps down as V.P. at the Republican Convention for health reasons and McCain (the only reason I went Republican) accepts the V.P. Which will never happen, I think McCain behind closed doors hates Bush. And I actually like Bush. I don't like his handlers. Pool-Boy was right, I am actually going to vote for this puss Kerry. Maybe there will be some kind of scandal when he becomes president, like the media finding out his wife is a man in drag and he has to step down, then Edwards will be president. At this point that is best I can hope for.


AMEN. I am more a moderate democrat, but I voted for Nader in 2000 because of my disgust for both parties. Not this year - I will be voting Kerry just to get rid of Bush. I really, really wish Edwards had won the nomination (he was my vote in the primary), and that McCain could run for the GOP. Ahhh, then I would actually have to debate who to vote for.

    Originally posted by Pool-Boy
    Kerry has waffled on every important issue, and in my mind, that makes him unfit to be President. Hate Bush all you want, but at least the man makes a decision and sticks with it.


Doesn't it show as a sign of intelligence and thoughtfulness if you think one way, see it doesn't work, and change your mind? Or is it really better to keep bull-headedly thinking the same way 'cause doggone it, that's the way it's going to be?
ekedolphin
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#25 Posted on 11.8.04 0407.43
Reposted on: 11.8.11 0409.06
Who. Gives. A Shit?

Are we gonna actually get into some real issues, or are we gonna continue with this mud-slinging bullshit?

I'm voting against Bush because of the irresponsible way he undertook this war with Iraq (which, by the way, had no connection to the people who actually attacked us on 9/11). Instead of forming a strong international coalition, Bush basically said, “Damn the torpeodes, full speed ahead--” and the only thing we've really gotten in exchange are dead Americans.

Is the country safer now than it was on 9/11? I don't think so. Now in Iraq, terrorists are killing Americans nearly every day, and the situation isn't gonna improve, because the Iraqis still need us there to attempt to guarantee their security. As well as we can, that is-- which, unfortunately, isn't all that well.

And Bush is absolutely on completely the wrong side of the whole gay marriage issue. Kerry, at least, is against gay marriage but doesn't believe the federal government has the right to legislate the issue. Bush wants to tear up the Bill of Rights by passing a constitutional amendment that will explicitly deny a right to Americans. Yeah, because the last time we did that, it worked extremely well.

I also agree with whatever-- Kerry, at least, is able to see both sides of every issue. Bush seems to have his mind set that “dammit, this is my opinion, and I'm not going to change it”-- even when he's 100% wrong, which happens quite a bit more often than Republicans would like to admit. Issues aren't as simple as black and white-- there are many different shades of gray in every issue that have to be analyzed, as well.

I don't give a damn about Kerry's record in Vietnam... and I don't give a damn about Bush allegedly going AWOL in the National Guard. I want to know who's most capable of leading our country, and this story has nothing at all to do with that, and everything to do with mudslinging.

And quite frankly, I think Bush is concerned that he can't beat Kerry, so he'll go to any effort to try and undermine the man's character. Typical Bush tactic.
The Thrill
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#26 Posted on 11.8.04 0431.28
Reposted on: 11.8.11 0433.08
Yo Pool-Boy...

...my hands are getting tired here from all the applause I give that post o'yours. Well played, sir!
StaggerLee
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#27 Posted on 11.8.04 0503.09
Reposted on: 11.8.11 0504.17

    Doesn't it show as a sign of intelligence and thoughtfulness if you think one way, see it doesn't work, and change your mind? Or is it really better to keep bull-headedly thinking the same way 'cause doggone it, that's the way it's going to be?


Actually, no, it is a sign of somebody who will do and say anything to further thier own political career. He flips and flops, and that isnt what a LEADER should do.

As far as the swift boat guys and Kerry goes, if they were there, you would have to think that they would remember something about what went on, no? I know I remember every bullshit award I had to stand in formation and hear the citation for. The details of the BS ones stick in your head. I could tell you some nice stories about some Marines and thier Bronze Stars for keeping the water trucks filled, 300 miles from the action, but, that would just take away from the discussion at hand.




Grimis
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#28 Posted on 11.8.04 0623.49
Reposted on: 11.8.11 0624.44
    Originally posted by whatever
    Doesn't it show as a sign of intelligence and thoughtfulness if you think one way, see it doesn't work, and change your mind? Or is it really better to keep bull-headedly thinking the same way 'cause doggone it, that's the way it's going to be?
Or, it could be construed as an opportunist politician blowin' in the wind because he waffles on every stinking issue.

    Originally posted by ekedoplhin
    I also agree with whatever-- Kerry, at least, is able to see both sides of every issue. Bush seems to have his mind set that “dammit, this is my opinion, and I'm not going to change it”-- even when he's 100% wrong, which happens quite a bit more often than Republicans would like to admit. Issues aren't as simple as black and white-- there are many different shades of gray in every issue that have to be analyzed, as well.
Well, that's because he's on both sides of every issue.

Incidentally, I'm trying to figure out which issues he is "100% wrong" on that comes from something empirical other than opinion? I disagree with Bush on several major issues, but that doesn't make me 100% right or him 100% wrong. Hell, I agree with Kerry on a few major issues. But I wouldn't trust him to be president of the AV Club, much less President of the United States.
DrOp
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#29 Posted on 11.8.04 0734.04
Reposted on: 11.8.11 0735.53
Grimis--I fully understand (and agree) that Presidents can't *really* be held accountable for the economy, but the fact remains that they ride the wave (good or bad) and get the blame or credit just because of the office they hold. So, for all intents and purposes, they *are* accountable due to public perception (which becomes the default reality). We can even agree that the economics of Bush Sr. (along with other kety factors) made the tech boom possible, but he will never get the credit because he wasn't in office when it happened, Clinton was.

Since you hold fast the this tax break was a good thing (and you seemed to ignore that part of my post)--please help me understand how giving $164 dollars to the poorest among us and millions to the richest helps the economy?

Also--while Kerry has wavered, I am so off-put by Bush's cowboy mentality and Cheney's isolationist ways that I can not see how anyone can really argue that we are better off today than we were 4 years ago. If not for the tragedy of 9/11 and the country rallying together in its wake, Bush's presidency would be even more of the joke than it has been. I would like to see someone with less of a temper and more of a brain in office. Really.
The Thrill
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#30 Posted on 11.8.04 0746.39
Reposted on: 11.8.11 0749.46
For those of you who aren't convinced Kerry is king of the flip-flops: here's for war in Iraq, and here's against.

For a multimedia Kerry flip-floppin' experience:

Click here! (RealPlayer)

Click here! (Windows Media)

Click here! (QuickTime)

(Disclaimer: the above all comes from an RNC-run site, KerryOnIraq.com.)



pieman
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Y!:
#31 Posted on 11.8.04 0746.47
Reposted on: 11.8.11 0754.08
    Originally posted by DJ FrostyFreeze
    Dont you ever get tired of scouring the internet everyday, looking for dirt on Kerry to post? Why dont we just stop fooling ourselves & re-name this folder the "Grimis Hates All Things Democrat, Especially John Kerry" folder?

    Sheesh.


Look what you started, young man.
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#32 Posted on 11.8.04 0751.16
Reposted on: 11.8.11 0759.03
    Originally posted by rockdotcom_2.0
      Originally posted by Pool-Boy
      You just proved my point. Veterans supporting Kerry are heroes telling the truth. Veterans against Kerry are "GOP Shock Troops" who are obviously lying. Their stories are fiction, because you don't like them. Pro-Kerry stories are heartfelt and real (NEVER staged! No!) but anti-Kerry stories are political spin. Ideal world you live in, there


    Well, considering how the Swiftboat Vet's claims fly in the face of the US NAVY's documented description of the events, yeah I think that most of them are pretty much lying. If there was any discrepancy with what happened in Vietnam then the Navy and the DOD would investigate it. As it stands now, the arguments of the SBVT carry no weight and are just for smear.


I don't know if they are lying or not though I question their veracity. Perhaps, like all of us they saw things through their own eyes. Nothing shakier than eyewitnesses.
Grimis
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#33 Posted on 11.8.04 0804.41
Reposted on: 11.8.11 0805.36
    Originally posted by DrOp
    Since you hold fast the this tax break was a good thing (and you seemed to ignore that part of my post)--please help me understand how giving $164 dollars to the poorest among us and millions to the richest helps the economy?
For one thing, it wasn't quite like that. But remember, that the $300 per person tax break stimulated the economy. It's true. Sorry.

    Originally posted by DrOp
    Also--while Kerry has wavered, I am so off-put by Bush's cowboy mentality and Cheney's isolationist ways that I can not see how anyone can really argue that we are better off today than we were 4 years ago. If not for the tragedy of 9/11 and the country rallying together in its wake, Bush's presidency would be even more of the joke than it has been. I would like to see someone with less of a temper and more of a brain in office. Really.
I disagree because I would rather be more isolationist than internationalist. I don't trust the UN and other large NGOs. I don't trust France. I don't trust multi-state entities. And I feel America is better off when they leave us alone and, frankly, we leave them alone. I would prefer to deal with other nations on trade issues, and then on an as-need basis than in large scale bureaucracies and America-bashing sessions.

I said it in the other thread; Bush's presidency is far from perfect. But it beats the hell out of the alternative...
Corajudo
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#34 Posted on 11.8.04 0807.26
Reposted on: 11.8.11 0808.24
Since you hold fast the this tax break was a good thing (and you seemed to ignore that part of my post)--please help me understand how giving $164 dollars to the poorest among us and millions to the richest helps the economy?

You can only receive a tax break up to the amount you pay in taxes. The maximum amount in taxes that someone who earns $11,000 can pay is $305 (this would be if they only took the standard deduction and had no other exemptions or anything; also, this excludes any other tax credits or anything else). So, no single person making $11,000 in income could receive more than $305 in tax breaks. And, therefore, the average tax paid would be less than the $305 (it might even be $164, but I doubt it). My guess is that the average person earning $11,000 (who had at least themself to support) pays very, very little in taxes, if anything. So, it is hard to give them a tax break which would result in a big windfall.

As far as a cut in the capital gains taxes or ending the dividend tax, these stimulate economic growth (and long-run economic growth more importantly) because they reduce the cost of investment, create an incentive for stock ownership (which also reduces the cost of capital, provides more savings which translates into more funds for investment and also helps fund new factories/equipment/etc. which increase the economy's production) and therefore leads to both short-run and long-run economic growth (because it leads to the kinds of increases in capacity necessary to provide for long-run growth). Do they provide millions of dollars in tax cuts to business owners, investors and the rich? Sure, but these tax cuts* also do a nice job of creating jobs for the rest of us as well.

Any policy designed to stimulate the economy that does not address the need for future production (which is necessary to provide for continued increases in output) will not lead to long-run growth and therefore is (in my opinion) a waste of time, resources and sure to cause problems in the future. So, I get worried when politicians make proposals that do not address these issues. At least Bush's tax cut did address those issues.

* And, I am referring to tax cuts that lower the cost of capital, not necessarily income tax cuts on the top earners; that would be another post.
DrOp
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#35 Posted on 11.8.04 0825.22
Reposted on: 11.8.11 0827.48
    Originally posted by Grimis
    For one thing, it wasn't quite like that. But remember, that the $300 per person tax break stimulated the economy. It's true. Sorry.


I was speaking more in terms of the dividend tax break. Sure, giving people money stmulates the economy, but when his "tax breaks for the working people" also include huge breaks for the rich and incorporated, it begins to look suspiciously like a kick-back, don't you think?


    Originally posted by Grimis
    I disagree because I would rather be more isolationist than internationalist. I don't trust the UN and other large NGOs. I don't trust France. I don't trust multi-state entities. And I feel America is better off when they leave us alone and, frankly, we leave them alone. I would prefer to deal with other nations on trade issues, and then on an as-need basis than in large scale bureaucracies and America-bashing sessions.

    I said it in the other thread; Bush's presidency is far from perfect. But it beats the hell out of the alternative...


I'm not suggesting that we blindly trust other nations. I'm trying to speak to the point that I think the way we have (in this administraion) gone brazenly about doing whatever we like, despite how it makes us look in the international community, isn't the best move. I believe that we should rest somewhere between isolationism and internationalism--swinging to either side as situations merit. But walking around the planet with our chests out because we have the biggest guns is going to backfire eventually. The forces we rally against are willing to go to extremes that the American public won't to make their points and hold to their beliefs. And, as I said in the Bush-NAACP thread, I always think its a good idea to try to see/view things from an outsiders perspective. I think that many people would feel differently about war et.al. if they got to see more uncensored footage, rather than the network spin or if more things over here started blowing up. Do you really feel safer now? I'm not sure that I do.
Grimis
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#36 Posted on 11.8.04 1030.37
Reposted on: 11.8.11 1033.08
    Originally posted by DrOp
    I was speaking more in terms of the dividend tax break. Sure, giving people money stmulates the economy, but when his "tax breaks for the working people" also include huge breaks for the rich and incorporated, it begins to look suspiciously like a kick-back, don't you think?
Fair enough. However, the truth is that dividend tax breaks also affect the middle-class. Think about the people who own stocks and 401k's who got a tax break based on dividens gained from their holdings.

    Originally posted by DrOp
    I'm not suggesting that we blindly trust other nations. I'm trying to speak to the point that I think the way we have (in this administraion) gone brazenly about doing whatever we like, despite how it makes us look in the international community, isn't the best move. I believe that we should rest somewhere between isolationism and internationalism--swinging to either side as situations merit. But walking around the planet with our chests out because we have the biggest guns is going to backfire eventually. The forces we rally against are willing to go to extremes that the American public won't to make their points and hold to their beliefs.
I would tend to agree. However, I would argue that at this point we have only acted in situations where it is in our best interests. Afghanistan is easy to see, and the Iraq-al Qeada links are their, despite a lot of hard work going into some to deny their existance.

    Originally posted by DrOp
    And, as I said in the Bush-NAACP thread, I always think its a good idea to try to see/view things from an outsiders perspective. I think that many people would feel differently about war et.al. if they got to see more uncensored footage, rather than the network spin or if more things over here started blowing up. Do you really feel safer now? I'm not sure that I do.
Agreed. But I do feel somewhat safer now, if only because people are more observant. I have flown several times since 9/11, and I feel safe because I am confidant that another 9/11 style attack cannot happen, because we are a pack and not a herd.

Anybody who thinks they are or were completely safe from terrorism, either in the 9/10 or the 9/12 world, are kidding themselves, regardless of who the President is.

(edited by Grimis on 11.8.04 1131)
DJ FrostyFreeze
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#37 Posted on 11.8.04 1109.44
Reposted on: 11.8.11 1119.50
    Originally posted by pieman
    Look what you started, young man.
BUSH IS A LIAR!
KERRY IS A LIAR!

BUSH IS HARD-HEADED!
KERRY IS A FLIP-FLOPPER!

*Throws up*
avonhun
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#38 Posted on 11.8.04 1200.17
Reposted on: 11.8.11 1201.01
it is difficult to agrue that the tax breaks haven't done any good for the economy, because they have. but that doesn't mean it was the best way to approach the situation. i think it was not a solution for the whole problem which includes aspects like repairing the defecit and increasing employment.

(edited by avonhun on 11.8.04 1008)
JayJayDean
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Y!:
#39 Posted on 11.8.04 1330.21
Reposted on: 11.8.11 1330.57
    Originally posted by DJ FrostyFreeze
      Originally posted by pieman
      Look what you started, young man.
    BUSH IS A LIAR!
    KERRY IS A LIAR!

    BUSH IS HARD-HEADED!
    KERRY IS A FLIP-FLOPPER!

    *Throws up*


That is without a doubt the finest post ever to grace this particular forum.
JustinShapiro
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#40 Posted on 11.8.04 1502.47
Reposted on: 11.8.11 1503.09
But it is missing a
link to anything on the internet that agrees with my perspective.

Originally posted by my side to save me the trouble:

    Hyperlinked words (automatically true)


As you can see, looks like a world wide web site supports my stance. So there you have it.



Yet. *Yet*. That's not to condemn. Sure, it should be called Polemics and not Politics, but for some reason I can't get enough of this folder. I lurk, baby. While skipping all the Sports. I think posting here is probably an HIV risk, but I cheer on my liberal brothers. Even this Grimis dude, I can't not like him because you gotta admire his chutzpah. Thanks, dudes!

(edited by JMShapiro on 11.8.04 1304)
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