The W
Views: 98600896
Main | FAQ | Search: Y! / G | Color chart | Log in for more!
1.9.07 1839
The 7 - Random - Happy V-J Day
This thread has 1 referral leading to it
Register and log in to post!
Pages: 1 2 Next(749 newer) Next thread | Previous thread
User
Post (26 total)
redsoxnation
Scrapple
Level: 152

Posts: 4087/7534
EXP: 43487551
For next: 814211

Since: 24.7.02

Since last post: 427 days
Last activity: 427 days
#1 Posted on 8.8.04 2247.10
Reposted on: 8.8.11 2255.42
Hope everyone else is enjoying the wonderful Monday holiday in August that proves that atomic war does have some benefits. Namely, a 3 day weekend between the 4th of July and Labor Day.
Promote this thread!
Freeway
Scrapple
Level: 110

Posts: 2209/3504
EXP: 14104176
For next: 304756

Since: 3.1.02
From: Calgary

Since last post: 253 days
Last activity: 6 hours
#2 Posted on 8.8.04 2336.13
Reposted on: 8.8.11 2337.34
And here's the Canadians who didn't do much on the Pacific side, but kicked some ass in Normandy to make sure it was possible!
Grimis
Scrapple
Level: 124

Posts: 3647/4700
EXP: 21459215
For next: 377447

Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1218 days
Last activity: 1014 days
#3 Posted on 9.8.04 0647.42
Reposted on: 9.8.11 0659.03
Uh, technically V-J Day is August 15th when it the Emperor announced the surrender...
SeVen ™
Kishke
Level: 44

Posts: 330/422
EXP: 589004
For next: 22285

Since: 11.1.02
From: Japan

Since last post: 2399 days
Last activity: 2230 days
#4 Posted on 9.8.04 0830.36
Reposted on: 9.8.11 0831.40
Well I am in Japan and I work for the Federal Goverment and my ass had to work Does anyone get off for that day??
The Thrill
Banger
Level: 99

Posts: 1248/2781
EXP: 9861787
For next: 138248

Since: 16.4.02
From: Green Bay, WI

Since last post: 138 days
Last activity: 26 days
#5 Posted on 10.8.04 0806.11
Reposted on: 10.8.11 0806.27
    Originally posted by redsoxnation
    Hope everyone else is enjoying the wonderful Monday holiday in August that proves that atomic war does have some benefits.


Not to mention saving lives on both sides of a conflict where the heels would fight to the death, causing horrific casualties. Better just to nuke 'em.
Grimis
Scrapple
Level: 124

Posts: 3655/4700
EXP: 21459215
For next: 377447

Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1218 days
Last activity: 1014 days
#6 Posted on 10.8.04 0832.02
Reposted on: 10.8.11 0834.27
Yeah, we did save at least a million lives thanks to those two bombs...
A Fan
Liverwurst
Level: 68

Posts: 749/1164
EXP: 2700479
For next: 28335

Since: 3.1.02

Since last post: 3505 days
Last activity: 3505 days
#7 Posted on 10.8.04 1039.16
Reposted on: 10.8.11 1039.38
Actually, if you have ever seen Fog of War, documentry on Robert McNamara, nuking Japan wasn't really necessary. We had fire bombed the hell out of it and probably would continue to do so until the Emperor gave up. The first bomb was basically saying to Japan, its over, give up. The second bomb was mainly to till the world, don't fuck with us. I do admitt that I'd probably nuke Japan if I were Truman at the time, the Japanesse would never have revolted against the Emperor, so they were prepared to fight to the death. However, I'd just continued the barrage till the Emperor finally came to term, but hindsight is 20/20.
Grimis
Scrapple
Level: 124

Posts: 3658/4700
EXP: 21459215
For next: 377447

Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1218 days
Last activity: 1014 days
#8 Posted on 10.8.04 1043.49
Reposted on: 10.8.11 1044.16
    Originally posted by A Fan
    The second bomb was mainly to till the world, don't fuck with us.
We would've been in real deep shit if the Japanese didn't surrender after the 2nd bomb. We only had three bombs. "Gadget"(the Trinity test bomb), and the two bombs used in combat. Otherwise, we wind up invading Japan anyway...
DrDirt
Banger
Level: 96

Posts: 1084/2697
EXP: 8837675
For next: 151144

Since: 8.10.03
From: flyover country

Since last post: 19 days
Last activity: 11 hours
#9 Posted on 10.8.04 1051.40
Reposted on: 10.8.11 1052.18
    Originally posted by Grimis
      Originally posted by A Fan
      The second bomb was mainly to till the world, don't fuck with us.
    We would've been in real deep shit if the Japanese didn't surrender after the 2nd bomb. We only had three bombs. "Gadget"(the Trinity test bomb), and the two bombs used in combat. Otherwise, we wind up invading Japan anyway...


Plus the public wanted the war over, period. Truman was prepared to invade but was sold this was the way to end it. Also, in hindsight, it was more human than the invasion and continuous firebombing.
The Big Kat
Kishke
Level: 43

Posts: 327/396
EXP: 535411
For next: 29640

Since: 11.1.02
From: Austin, TX

Since last post: 409 days
Last activity: 3 days
#10 Posted on 10.8.04 1056.00
Reposted on: 10.8.11 1056.16
Um, who has a 3 day weekend for it? I've never had the day off for V-J day. Do other parts of the country or world have it off (I'm in Chicago)?
A Fan
Liverwurst
Level: 68

Posts: 751/1164
EXP: 2700479
For next: 28335

Since: 3.1.02

Since last post: 3505 days
Last activity: 3505 days
#11 Posted on 10.8.04 1128.39
Reposted on: 10.8.11 1129.01
I do remember reading somewhere, that Japan was prepared to surrender after the first bomb, but something happened along the way. After the first bomb, the invasion probably would have gone a bit easier then expected. Their navy was destoryed, so we had them surrounded on the water, plus we had air superiority at the time too. The Invasion would have cost lives, but probably not as many Japanesse lives though. Since of course, American's lives are valued above everybody else.
Rudoublesedoublel
Potato korv
Level: 54

Posts: 249/689
EXP: 1229956
For next: 3921

Since: 2.1.02
From: Kentucky - Home of the 8 time NCAA Champ Wildcats

Since last post: 4 days
Last activity: 23 min.
#12 Posted on 10.8.04 1137.14
Reposted on: 10.8.11 1137.14
    Originally posted by A Fan
    Since of course, American's lives are valued above everybody else.


I would think that during a war that would be the correct way of thinking.
Grimis
Scrapple
Level: 124

Posts: 3664/4700
EXP: 21459215
For next: 377447

Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1218 days
Last activity: 1014 days
#13 Posted on 10.8.04 1157.53
Reposted on: 10.8.11 1158.28
    Originally posted by A Fan
    The Invasion would have cost lives, but probably not as many Japanesse lives though. Since of course, American's lives are valued above everybody else.
Actually, we probably saved more Japanese lives with the A-Bomb than without.

With A-Bomb: 150,000 Japanese fatalities, 0 American fatalities

Without A-bomb(estimates): 1 million Japanaese fatalities, 200,000 American fatalities:

    Originally posted by this source
    Casualty figures were a guess that changed with time. There are sufficient numbers available to support any post-war position that any author chooses to take. Low numbers are quoted as reasons to do the invasion, 125,000 for Olympic and to end the war. High numbers, one million US casualties for Downfall, are quoted to justify the a-bomb and end the war. Typically, 25% of casualties are deaths. On average, 5 Japanese soldiers died for each American death.

    Japanese casualties were not subjected to planning. If all troops resisted to the death, then the typical survival rate would have only included injured and unconscious soldiers. 216,627 troops were surrendered on Kyushu alone -- more than were expected -- and this was two months before the planned invasion. Civilian casualties are a real unknown. 97,000 were killed in the bombing of Tokyo on March 9; the numbers from land warfare would also be high. Consider ratios of any proportion you desire. Civilian losses in some European cities were considerable; certainly Japanese casualties would be in the multiple millions.

DrDirt
Banger
Level: 96

Posts: 1086/2697
EXP: 8837675
For next: 151144

Since: 8.10.03
From: flyover country

Since last post: 19 days
Last activity: 11 hours
#14 Posted on 10.8.04 1249.07
Reposted on: 10.8.11 1250.42
    Originally posted by A Fan
    I do remember reading somewhere, that Japan was prepared to surrender after the first bomb, but something happened along the way. After the first bomb, the invasion probably would have gone a bit easier then expected. Their navy was destoryed, so we had them surrounded on the water, plus we had air superiority at the time too. The Invasion would have cost lives, but probably not as many Japanesse lives though. Since of course, American's lives are valued above everybody else.


The civilian deaths would have been in the millions. Remember Okinawa. They had a huge standing army ready to fight and wouldn't surrender. They were not prepared to quit after the first one.
TheCow
Landjager
Level: 63

Posts: 828/948
EXP: 1984828
For next: 112335

Since: 3.1.02
From: Knoxville, TN

Since last post: 2398 days
Last activity: 2397 days
AIM:  
Y!:
#15 Posted on 10.8.04 1319.26
Reposted on: 10.8.11 1326.06
    Originally posted by The Big Kat
    Um, who has a 3 day weekend for it? I've never had the day off for V-J day. Do other parts of the country or world have it off (I'm in Chicago)?


I'm gonna hazard a guess at the USPS, but only because they seem to get off days for pretty much everything.
Dahak
Frankfurter
Level: 57

Posts: 478/772
EXP: 1438147
For next: 47790

Since: 12.5.02
From: Junction City OR.

Since last post: 1974 days
Last activity: 1627 days
#16 Posted on 10.8.04 2032.34
Reposted on: 10.8.11 2033.01
    Originally posted by A Fan
    I do remember reading somewhere, that Japan was prepared to surrender after the first bomb, but something happened along the way. After the first bomb, the invasion probably would have gone a bit easier then expected. Their navy was destoryed, so we had them surrounded on the water, plus we had air superiority at the time too. The Invasion would have cost lives, but probably not as many Japanesse lives though. Since of course, American's lives are valued above everybody else.


Honestly what is the complaint about nuking Japan? 150,000 died with the two bombs. If Japan had surrendered after Hiroshima the "they were about to surrender" story might be true. But they didn't did they? The US nuked them again then they surrendered a few days after that. Fire bombing cities would have killed as many if not more Japanesse civilains.
Nuclear weapons are evil yes. The cold war did suck and was scary true. The probability that some dubmass terrorist will eventually nuke a major city is very high.
But none of those have anything to do with using the 2 bombs in Aug of 45 on Japan.
The US had the bombs made already. The USSR was working on them. The Germans had been working on them. The British were about to start. The French would have except they had only been a country for 1 year at that time. Nukes aren't very hard to make. Just expensive and hard to hide.
DrDirt
Banger
Level: 96

Posts: 1089/2697
EXP: 8837675
For next: 151144

Since: 8.10.03
From: flyover country

Since last post: 19 days
Last activity: 11 hours
#17 Posted on 11.8.04 0738.06
Reposted on: 11.8.11 0738.21
    Originally posted by Dahak
      Nuclear weapons are evil yes. The cold war did suck and was scary true. The probability that some dubmass terrorist will eventually nuke a major city is very high.
      But none of those have anything to do with using the 2 bombs in Aug of 45 on Japan.


    First, Nukes aren't scary, the people that have them may be but the nuke is just a weapon. Second, the cold war likely would have been a lot hotter without MAD. I know it sounds strange, but nukes likely kept us from another world conflict.
Grimis
Scrapple
Level: 124

Posts: 3683/4700
EXP: 21459215
For next: 377447

Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1218 days
Last activity: 1014 days
#18 Posted on 11.8.04 0811.35
Reposted on: 11.8.11 0813.11
    Originally posted by DrDirt
    Second, the cold war likely would have been a lot hotter without MAD. I know it sounds strange, but nukes likely kept us from another world conflict.
Absolutely correct. Had it not been for the threat of nuclear war, there would've been a major war in Cuba had the Soviets attempted to place planes there instead of nuclear missiles.

Saved us a major land war in Vietnam(though, we probably would've won that).

Saved us from a major land war in Europe, probably several times at that.
tarnish
Frankfurter
Level: 60

Posts: 444/859
EXP: 1704444
For next: 68344

Since: 13.2.02
From: Back in the Heart of Hali

Since last post: 449 days
Last activity: 8 days
AIM:  
Y!:
#19 Posted on 11.8.04 1214.56
Reposted on: 11.8.11 1215.58
There are plenty of dissenting views, but the reading I've done suggests that the Nagasaki strike almost certainly wasn't necessary to elicit the surrender of Japan and perhaps neither was the Hiroshima strike. Hiroshima was the favored target for the first strike because it was largely untouched by conventional bombing and would therefore provide an excellent measure of just how much damage would be done. If it had been cloudy that day, however, Kokura or Nagasaki would have been hit first. And if Hiroshima was any kind of important military target, how come it hadn't been hit at all up to that point? Sounds like an event engineered for impact to me.

The contention that nuclear escalation deterred subsequent conflicts and loss of life is sadly not entirely without merit, but to suggest that the escalation was necessarily predicated upon the actual application of nuclear force in Japan is fallacy; neither Hiroshima nor Nagasaki was fulfillment of a threat, implied or otherwise. There was no, "We've got the A-Bomb: surrender or be nuked," instead the United States unilaterally decided to usher in the nuclear age. Escalation simply guaranteed that if it came down to it, the next world war would be between nuclear-capable countries and could very likely result in mass extinction.

Did this event prevent a later "live test" (which is what Hiroshima and Nagasaki essentially were) from killing even more people after escalation had already progressed to a considerably more terrifying level? It's impossible to say. It is also impossible to say authoritatively that it "prevented" a war in Cuba, a war or war(s) in Europe, or "a major land war in Vietnam." Several thousand names carved in stone and thousands more forgotten say that the Vietnam conflict was major enough, thanks. Some might even argue that if the U.S. had been willing to drop another nuke in Southeast Asia that the Vietnam conflict could have ended very quickly. The Soviets, ever vigilant in their own backyard, might have had something appropriately atomic to say in response however, and thus one might argue that the arms race actually dragged out Vietnam as opposed to preventing it from being a "major land war."

All I know is that myself and at least the generation immediately before me grew up under the spectre of nuclear war. I know that it really comes down to the fact that the progress of Nuclear Physics made nuclear weapons a potential reality, and that such potential, once recognized, necessarily had to be realized, and then so on both sides to preserve a sort of balance. I really do resent, however, the notion that I should accept that the mass homicide of Japanese is somehow justified by the "good it did for us all in the end."

It is better, I think, to remember it as a regrettable event that should remind us all how lucky we are that we haven't seen worse; and that we mustn't lose sight of the tens of thousands of lives that it cost and the fundamental changes it made to human reality.
Grimis
Scrapple
Level: 124

Posts: 3687/4700
EXP: 21459215
For next: 377447

Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1218 days
Last activity: 1014 days
#20 Posted on 11.8.04 1339.36
Reposted on: 11.8.11 1343.14
    Originally posted by tarnish
    The contention that nuclear escalation deterred subsequent conflicts and loss of life is sadly not entirely without merit, but to suggest that the escalation was necessarily predicated upon the actual application of nuclear force in Japan is fallacy; neither Hiroshima nor Nagasaki was fulfillment of a threat, implied or otherwise. There was no, "We've got the A-Bomb: surrender or be nuked," instead the United States unilaterally decided to usher in the nuclear age.
Let's not get carried away. The Potsdam Declaration said that Japan must unconditionally surrender or, and I quote, "face prompt and utter destruction." That doesn't exactly sound like a day at the beach, especially in light of the fact that the US had been routing the Japanese for a while now.

Let's not forget who started this war, incidentally...
Pages: 1 2 NextThread ahead: Help Needed! Major Virus/Comp Probs
Next thread: Drunk Driver asks to be arrested ...
Previous thread: So much for cake & punch ...
(749 newer) Next thread | Previous thread
The 7 - Random - Happy V-J DayRegister and log in to post!

The W™ message board - 7 year recycle

ZimBoard
©2001-2014 Brothers Zim
This old hunk of junk rendered your page in 0.218 seconds.