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dMr
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#21 Posted on 10.8.04 0946.23
Reposted on: 10.8.11 0952.01
    Originally posted by PalpatineW
    The "international community" is a fraud. The world right now can be divided into four groups. The United States and her allies, France and her allies, crazy states that want to kill us, and everyone else.


How terribly simplistic. Many of the US allies are on pretty darned good terms with 'France and her allies' on a multitude of important political matters. Heck we're even trying to make moves to form a consensus on how best to tackle post-Saddam Iraq. To believe there are two succinct groups is, well, wrong for the lack of a better word. I won't even get into the problems of dismissing 'states that want to kill us' as crazy.


    Tell me what exactly the "international community" is keeping an eye on? Do you think France give's a rat's derriere about anything that happens in this country? Do you think anyone in Europe does?


No, no. Couldn't give a damn. Theres never been ANY economic relationship between the US and EU countries. The results of your elections are entirely inconsequential to us, and indeed the world in general. Frankly why should anyone in the rest of the world give a damn if the world's last remaining superpower with a dominant economy has elections which appear flawed.


    They are interested in making us look bad, period.

We wouldn't waste our time. You managed just fine all by yourselves last time out.


    International politics is every bit the game of power-grabs that domestic politics is; assigning pure motives to any of these agencies is naivete.


And yet dividing the world into four neat, exclusive groups is insightful....


    We ought to be able to clean up our own elections without losing face to our enemies in the process.


Europe is NOT your enemy. That some countries in the EU disagree with you on certain matters of (particularly) foreign policy does not make them so.


    Why these Democrats felt compelled to bring the OSCE in, and not, as Sklok suggested, a bi-partisan committee, I just don't know.


Because for whatever reason your attempts to run an election last time out ended up looking pretty darned laughable. The system in place appeared ill equipped to deal with the situations that arose, and the pitiful sniping from both sides at times made the system look at best incompetent and at worst corrupt.

Upon that background a bi-partisan committee would be doomed to failure in the eyes of the world media, with most probably considering the results a whitewash designed to dampen fears about America's perceived inability to run succesful elections.

Thats not to say that such a thing would occur, or that the US is any less equipped than any other nation to run elections, but at least by inviting the OSCE in the supervision can APPEAR to be meaningful and impartial, both in the eyes of the foreign media and doubtless in the eyes of many disillusioned voters within the US. And sadly appearance matters a whole hell olf a lot in politics these days.
dMp
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#22 Posted on 10.8.04 1003.12
Reposted on: 10.8.11 1014.16
    Originally posted by dMr
    Europe is NOT your enemy. That some countries in the EU disagree with you on certain matters of (particularly) foreign policy does not make them so.


I seem to recall most European nations helped the US in some way or the other.
I'll even go as far as saying this:
If the USA would show some tolerance (not some with us or against us nWO talk) towards the attitudes of the other nations it would actually make it look like the US government really believes in the ideal of a free world where people can make up their own minds on things..
Not make up their own minds as long as it is what I want..

I think it's sad that some of you view this as an embarrassing moment in the face of all of 'your enemies'.
Why not look the world in the eye, say some shit went wrong last time but this time you will show once and for all that you are the great nation you claim to be, yadda yadda and with that International team of onlookers looking on have an election w/o screw ups, whining and have a undisputable winner (no matter who it is) and show "us" how it is done.

Oh and Palpatine..I think there was quite a large international community full of US suport when 9/11 happened. Only when the war talk (again..either with or against us) started shortly after did that support fall apart..

(edited by dMp on 10.8.04 1707)
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#23 Posted on 10.8.04 1020.59
Reposted on: 10.8.11 1026.48
I think its a good idea, because honestly, both sides need it. Whether Republicans know it or not, the 2000 election appeared less like an election and more of something by George Orwell. If they win, they get the stamp of approval of not only the U.S., but the international which they claim are helping by going into the Middle East. However, if something fishy does happen, the Republicans have a huge scapegoat to point to.

The Democrates need it less. If they lose, they do it with an international community looking down on them. It will hurt the Democrates more as a pary if they lose this election and having the international community approve it as well. If they do win, it gives Kerry more legitimacy as a President.

I find it funny, becuase I did a satire class with the Onion stories of the Election 2000, where America was in chaos and looked like a third world country after a similar election. We discussed the article and came to a number of conclusions which I found interesting. Some students felt that apathy, a sitting President, the news media and the fact that the Republicans were the ones winning stopped any riots. The students suggested people are not passionate enough about it that it wouldn't cause this much chaos. It also helped Clinton was not running and that plus the news media did everything in their power to make sure the people felt reassured all the time. One student pointed out that if the Republicans would have lost this way, they would have gotten their guns and taken to the street.
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#24 Posted on 10.8.04 1054.48
Reposted on: 10.8.11 1054.50
    Originally posted by dMp
      Oh and Palpatine..I think there was quite a large international community full of US suport when 9/11 happened. Only when the war talk (again..either with or against us) started shortly after did that support fall apart..

      (edited by dMp on 10.8.04 1707)


    The real rift was over Iraq as not to many argued over Afghanistan.
Lafayette
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#25 Posted on 10.8.04 1247.25
Reposted on: 10.8.11 1248.34
In Washington's farewell address he specifically warned against letting other Countries into our affairs. He felt, wisely so, that other countries are always going to be putting their interests first and America's second.

We are throwing the wisdom of our forefathers out the window with this One World Order (tm) takeover. There is absolutely no reason we need foreigners from Socialist countries "monitoring" our sovereign elections.

Period.

The Democrats that requested this are enemies of the state. Colin Powell should be fired immediately as well.

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#26 Posted on 10.8.04 1257.42
Reposted on: 10.8.11 1259.01
    Originally posted by Lafayette
    In Washington's farewell address he specifically warned against letting other Countries into our affairs. He felt, wisely so, that other countries are always going to be putting their interests first and America's second.

    We are throwing the wisdom of our forefathers out the window with this One World Order (tm) takeover. There is absolutely no reason we need foreigners from Socialist countries "monitoring" our sovereign elections.

    Period.

    The Democrats that requested this are enemies of the state. Colin Powell should be fired immediately as well.




I believe he warned against foreign entanglements. Respect our founders but realize the world is a different place and as much as you would prefer isolation it aint happening. Wait, I need to check out this black helicopter that just landed.

(edited by DrDirt on 10.8.04 1258)
Iago
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#27 Posted on 10.8.04 1547.27
Reposted on: 10.8.11 1547.27
Oregon has this really cool thing. All ballots are absentee. Whoa! Sure this can lead to a measure of fraud, but then it's happening now isn't it? The ultimate in anti-lazy measures, you vote from home. This would negate the problem of poor hours.


And addressing an earlier comment, I am not speaking for a scrapping of the Electoral College. It isn't perfect, despite what Alexander Hamilton's rather high opinion. I mean it's ultimate purpose depends on how cynical one views the Federalists (i.e. Elite Democrats [Side note, this term has nothing to do with the political party. I make the assertion of one's political stance being on a Cartesian plane, one axis for conservatism, and liberalism, the other axis for elitism and populism.]), who favored it over a popular vote. In fact Madison's opinion of such a rule by majority is known. To readdress the original point, my argument is that the electoral college switches from Winner-take-all to proportional representation. Meaning a) we keep the electoral college, b) the electoral votes from a state are split up among the candidates, depending on the proportion a candidate takes of the overall state vote.

Okay, now this may not look good to everyone and it truth it is far from perfect, in fact it can lead to deadlock, but that happened in 2000. But it has it's merits, like not ignoring the votes of the people who didn't vote for the "winner". Now there will still be a winner of the election, but even if you voted for the guy who didn't get a majority of a state, you votes actually amounted to something. And the person who gets the most Electoral College votes still wins. Whoa. This could potentially sidestep a Floridian problem like last time, I stress potentially, because ultimately it wasn't just the vote count that was a bit messed up.

The thing I love is the argument: we're the U.S. We're the good guys! We have a glorious democracy, and will share it with you!

Shine that how you will, it still stinks. If our own democracy is more than a little f*cked by what divine right are we allowed to spread it to other people? But if you question us, well you're wrong? I know I am not the only one who thinks this is beyond silly and bordering of obvious hyprocrisy.
Nag
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#28 Posted on 10.8.04 2043.01
Reposted on: 10.8.11 2045.24
I guess its no big deal in 2004 that an international team of advisors is going to quietly monitor the U.S. election, we will be used to it by 2008. So used to it in fact, that by 2012 we grant them some legal powers just a few however, and just a few more in 2016. So, I doubt you will even think twice in 2020 when French-born Maria Fracies Alibabu has more say in who runs the U.S. government then John and Jane Six-pack. But hey, its not all for naught, I'm sure someone will make millions selling the Declaration of Independence on E-Bay. It will be the most expensive piece of tissue paper in history.

Until we get a third party that runs a true America First policy, and stops whoring our working class to NAFTA and the WTO in the name of Wal*Mart. A party who boots out these internationalists out of the government, then we are going straight to hell. Maybe true isolation isn't possible, but we need to get as close to that point as is attainable.
Joseph Ryder
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#29 Posted on 10.8.04 2323.09
Reposted on: 10.8.11 2329.01
    Originally posted by Nag
    Until we get a third party that runs a true America First policy, and stops whoring our working class to NAFTA and the WTO in the name of Wal*Mart. A party who boots out these internationalists out of the government, then we are going straight to hell.


I ain't goin' to hell man...I'm gonna live for eh ver!
StaggerLee
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#30 Posted on 11.8.04 0028.52
Reposted on: 11.8.11 0029.01
    Originally posted by dMp
    I seem to recall most European nations helped the US in some way or the other.


Yes, I dont know where we would be without all the European nations that helped us out. Lets see, we owe a HUGE debt of gratitude to Grece, Ireland, all the Baltic states, Italy, etc etc.
And besides, I do believe a little thing called D Day pays all of you Europeans back, tenfold for anything you ever did to assist the USA.


    I'll even go as far as saying this: If the USA would show some tolerance (not some with us or against us nWO talk) towards the attitudes of the other nations it would actually make it look like the US government really believes in the ideal of a free world where people can make up their own minds on things..


Oh, I see, as long as we agree with what the mighty Europeans want and feel, then we are an okay nation, but have any opinions of our own, and somehow we are the bastards of world politics.


    Oh and Palpatine..I think there was quite a large international community full of US suport when 9/11 happened. Only when the war talk (again..either with or against us) started shortly after did that support fall apart.

I am so fucking sick of hearing THAT bullshit. That the USA had the international community support. Its COMPLETE BULLSHIT! We may have had SYMPATHY, (or, was it guilt, for allowing terrorist networks to use France, Germany, and other EU nations as places to hide, set up, meet and plan attacks?) but the second the USA said "Fuck this shit, we are taking out every motherfucker involved in one way or another with this attack" all the typical pussy ass nations with illegal oil contracts balked at doing a single fucking thing. Because if they truely, TRUELY believed that it was only WAR in and of itself that was wrong, they could have abstained from the vote, or voted one way or another. But, to sit and out and out try to prevent the USA from exacting some revenge, AND at the same time, handling shit that the "international community" had ignored, many to thier own profit BTW, was complete bullshit.
"NO BLOOD FOR OIL!" Yeah Germany, Russia and France, no blood to take away your illegal contracts for cheap oil is what you really meant. No allowing the USA to getinvolved with the nation they were ALL selling fucking arms and other military equipment to.
So, forgive me if I say I could give a rats ass what the EU nations wanted or cared about, since it was all self serving to begin with. Is our current actions self serving? Yes they are, but, let the Eifel Tower, or Red Square or whatever is big in Germany get hit with 3000 terrorist deaths in a day, and then tell me about how we should just sit down and talk to these barbaric terrorist organizations.
Joseph Ryder
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#31 Posted on 11.8.04 0118.14
Reposted on: 11.8.11 0122.36
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
      Originally posted by dMp
      I'll even go as far as saying this: If the USA would show some tolerance (not some with us or against us nWO talk) towards the attitudes of the other nations it would actually make it look like the US government really believes in the ideal of a free world where people can make up their own minds on things..


    Oh, I see, as long as we agree with what the mighty Europeans want and feel, then we are an okay nation, but have any opinions of our own, and somehow we are the bastards of world politics.


Dude, calm down...he was just calling for a little TOLERANCE. So no, I would say you don't see.


    I am so fucking sick of hearing THAT bullshit. That the USA had the international community support. Its COMPLETE BULLSHIT! We may have had SYMPATHY, (or, was it guilt, for allowing terrorist networks to use France, Germany, and other EU nations as places to hide, set up, meet and plan attacks?) but the second the USA said "Fuck this shit, we are taking out every motherfucker involved in one way or another with this attack" all the typical pussy ass nations with illegal oil contracts balked at doing a single fucking thing. Because if they truely, TRUELY believed that it was only WAR in and of itself that was wrong, they could have abstained from the vote, or voted one way or another. But, to sit and out and out try to prevent the USA from exacting some revenge, AND at the same time, handling shit that the "international community" had ignored, many to thier own profit BTW, was complete bullshit.
    "NO BLOOD FOR OIL!" Yeah Germany, Russia and France, no blood to take away your illegal contracts for cheap oil is what you really meant. No allowing the USA to getinvolved with the nation they were ALL selling fucking arms and other military equipment to.
    So, forgive me if I say I could give a rats ass what the EU nations wanted or cared about, since it was all self serving to begin with. Is our current actions self serving? Yes they are, but, let the Eifel Tower, or Red Square or whatever is big in Germany get hit with 3000 terrorist deaths in a day, and then tell me about how we should just sit down and talk to these barbaric terrorist organizations.



Again...TOLERANCE. Using NWO-speak and referring to them as "pussy-ass nations" doesn't seem to be getting anything done (surprisingly enough), so why don't we try another route? What the fuck have we got to lose?
dMp
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#32 Posted on 11.8.04 0223.41
Reposted on: 11.8.11 0224.02
    Originally posted by Nag
    I guess its no big deal in 2004 that an international team of advisors is going to quietly monitor the U.S. election, we will be used to it by 2008. So used to it in fact, that by 2012 we grant them some legal powers just a few however, and just a few more in 2016. So, I doubt you will even think twice in 2020 when French-born Maria Fracies Alibabu has more say in who runs the U.S. government then John and Jane Six-pack. But hey, its not all for naught, I'm sure someone will make millions selling the Declaration of Independence on E-Bay. It will be the most expensive piece of tissue paper in history.

    Until we get a third party that runs a true America First policy, and stops whoring our working class to NAFTA and the WTO in the name of Wal*Mart. A party who boots out these internationalists out of the government, then we are going straight to hell. Maybe true isolation isn't possible, but we need to get as close to that point as is attainable.


Ok. really serious question. Do you really believe what you say? Do you really think that if some comittee takes an objective look at your elections (something that happens in a lot of countries, not just 3rd world ones) in a few years they will be running your country? Do you think that this is the first step to relinguishing control over your democratic process?
Grimis
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#33 Posted on 11.8.04 0616.33
Reposted on: 11.8.11 0622.47
    Originally posted by Joseph Ryder
    Dude, calm down...he was just calling for a little TOLERANCE. So no, I would say you don't see.
How come the in foreign affairs, the US is expected to have "tolerance" when everybody else has intolerance for us?
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#34 Posted on 11.8.04 0703.49
Reposted on: 11.8.11 0703.51
Because with great power comes great responsability. We are the world's only super-power, we have to act civil. We have to set the standard, becasue if we act like a bunch of spoiled children, so will the rest of the world. I don't think the international community is as evil as everyone says it is. I too would like China, North Korea, parts of the Middle ie Israel and Palastine to fucking grow up already. However, that will not happen overnight nor will it happen by going to war. I truly believe going into Afghan was the right move and honestly we got a lot of international support, the British, Aussies and number of other countries sent troops and gave us free reign. We got full backing from the international community, so lets be honest there was support and continues to be support mainly from the Brits.

Its the Iraqi war they have a problem with. I think Bush's cowboy speeches have lead a lot to the breakdown of communication. He could have said, you know what we agree to disagree, but still went in. No, he went a gave those NWO speeches refered to the U.S. the coalitions of the willing which turned out to less true. I think Bush's Administration has done a ton of damage over the planet, I agree Saddam was an asshole, but he was no threat to anyone. The idea him and Bin Laden were buddy were false. if given the oppurtinity, one would pull a Hitler that person's Stalin. I would have prefered to finish the job in Afghanastain instead of waisting lives, money and time on Bush's family vendetta. Hell, the insurance companies almost killed my family, you see me burning down Merril Lynch?
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#35 Posted on 11.8.04 0746.30
Reposted on: 11.8.11 0749.41
    Originally posted by Nag
    Until we get a third party that runs a true America First policy, and stops whoring our working class to NAFTA and the WTO in the name of Wal*Mart. A party who boots out these internationalists out of the government, then we are going straight to hell. Maybe true isolation isn't possible, but we need to get as close to that point as is attainable.


It would destroy our economy. We are so interdependent on the rest of the world it would result in chaos at best. I agree we need to correct the deficiences in NAFTA and the WTO but our standard of living is dependent on the world.
dMr
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#36 Posted on 11.8.04 0934.09
Reposted on: 11.8.11 0936.23
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    Yes, I dont know where we would be without all the European nations that helped us out. Lets see, we owe a HUGE debt of gratitude to Grece, Ireland, all the Baltic states, Italy, etc etc.
    And besides, I do believe a little thing called D Day pays all of you Europeans back, tenfold for anything you ever did to assist the USA.


M'kay, so because the US assisted (rather belatedly one may add) about 60 years ago in WWII, we simple Europeans should be eternally grateful and offer our support for anything you do today. How terribly relevant.


    I am so fucking sick of hearing THAT bullshit. That the USA had the international community support. Its COMPLETE BULLSHIT! We may have had SYMPATHY, (or, was it guilt, for allowing terrorist networks to use France, Germany, and other EU nations as places to hide, set up, meet and plan attacks?)


Damn straight! There ain't no terrorist cells in the good ole US of A. Its all the evil Europeans who harbour their nasty asses.


    but the second the USA said "Fuck this shit, we are taking out every motherfucker involved in one way or another with this attack" all the typical pussy ass nations with illegal oil contracts balked at doing a single fucking thing.


And we've done SUCH a good job of proving that Iraq had a part to play in 9/11. Those Saddam/al Qaeda links have been disputed by, um, near everybody INCLUDING the UK government. Or is it OK because funding for terrorist organisations came from Iraq? And in that case is it OK for the UK and Ireland to go get some revenge for the millions of pounds worth of IRA, UVF etc. funding that came from the US?


    Because if they truely, TRUELY believed that it was only WAR in and of itself that was wrong, they could have abstained from the vote, or voted one way or another. But, to sit and out and out try to prevent the USA from exacting some revenge


When you retaliated against Afghanistan for harbouring the man believed to be directly linked to the 9/11 atrocities you had wide ranging support. When you decided to take the 'war on terror' to nations with no proven link to 9/11, other countries had a problem with it. And geez, its TRULY already.


    at the "international community" had ignored, many to thier own profit BTW, was complete bullshit.
    "NO BLOOD FOR OIL!" Yeah Germany, Russia and France, no blood to take away your illegal contracts for cheap oil is what you really meant. No allowing the USA to getinvolved with the nation they were ALL selling fucking arms and other military equipment to.


God bless America and its good wholesome approach to international trade. No arms left your shores to go to Iraq. No siree. And believing oppostion from EU countries was purely oil related is as naive as believing that oil was the sole motive for the US invading Iraq. Much more important in Germany's decision was their upcoming elections where polls were showing that the majority were against going to war.


    let the Eifel Tower, or Red Square or whatever is big in Germany get hit with 3000 terrorist deaths in a day, and then tell me about how we should just sit down and talk to these barbaric terrorist organizations.


To the best of my knowledge, Germany, Russia and France have not once stated that 'just sitting down and talking' to al Qaeda is the way forward. They opposed the decision to go to war in Iraq. As did many Hans Blix and his weapons inspectors. As did many Brits. As do many Americans. An overwhelming number of people who opposed the decision have no deals to get cheap oil fom Iraq.

    Originally posted by Grimis
    How come the in foreign affairs, the US is expected to have "tolerance" when everybody else has intolerance for us?


Oh please. A number of nations opposed your decision to go to war in Iraq. That doesn't mean that they're intolerant of you, it means that they disagreed on ONE course of action that you took. For years America has enjoyed broad support from a huge number of nations on a wealth of foreign issues. So please don't come crying about intolerance from the world at large cos it just don't wash.

Your pitiful 'nobody likes us, we don't care' attitude is not only inaccurate, its positively dangerous. The more you do what you want without care of how it is viewed by the world at large, the more hatred will be felt toward your nation. If you think that makes you safer, I pity you.
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#37 Posted on 11.8.04 1328.01
Reposted on: 11.8.11 1329.01
    Originally posted by DrDirt
      Originally posted by Lafayette
      In Washington's farewell address he specifically warned against letting other Countries into our affairs. He felt, wisely so, that other countries are always going to be putting their interests first and America's second.

      We are throwing the wisdom of our forefathers out the window with this One World Order (tm) takeover. There is absolutely no reason we need foreigners from Socialist countries "monitoring" our sovereign elections.

      Period.

      The Democrats that requested this are enemies of the state. Colin Powell should be fired immediately as well.




    I believe he warned against foreign entanglements. Respect our founders but realize the world is a different place and as much as you would prefer isolation it aint happening. Wait, I need to check out this black helicopter that just landed.

    (edited by DrDirt on 10.8.04 1258)


Wrong but nice try.


    The address warned first against the growth of political parties, especially if geographically based. In foreign affairs Washington acknowledged the need for temporary alliances, but warned against "permanent alliances." (The term "entangling alliances" is not found in the address.)


What I stated was true. He warned against allowing foreign countries (permanent alliances) into our affairs. This is because they would put their interests first and ours second.

As for the rest of your reply it was prejudice flame bait so I'll ignore.

David Adams
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#38 Posted on 11.8.04 1356.35
Reposted on: 11.8.11 1359.01
    Originally posted by Lafayette
    As for the rest of your reply it was prejudice flame bait so I'll ignore.



The Doc is probably the LAST person to flame someone else in the Politics folder, so maybe you should have lurked and learned a little.



(edited by David Adams on 11.8.04 1459)
Lafayette
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#39 Posted on 11.8.04 1512.56
Reposted on: 11.8.11 1515.21
    Originally posted by David Adams
      Originally posted by Lafayette
      As for the rest of your reply it was prejudice flame bait so I'll ignore.



    The Doc is probably the LAST person to flame someone else in the Politics folder, so maybe you should have lurked and learned a little.



    (edited by David Adams on 11.8.04 1459)



    Respect our founders but realize the world is a different place and as much as you would prefer isolation it aint happening. Wait, I need to check out this black helicopter that just landed.


So right. This is in no way a prejudiced statement calling me an isolationist and a tin-foil hat weirdo.

My bad. **Rolls eyes**

Let's just continue the conversation on the topic. There is no need for foreign "monitoring" of our elections. We are not a third world, banana Republic here and for some Democrats to want this is a disgrace.

For Powell to agree with them is even worse.




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#40 Posted on 11.8.04 1526.46
Reposted on: 11.8.11 1527.26
Lafayette, I apologize if you felt flamed. Howevr, please reread your posts and you appear isolationist and feaful of the entire international community IMO. Isolationism is a heritage we maintained well for almost 150 years but it is past, we cannot go back.
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