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19.4.07 0213
The 7 - Random - Angel Season 3 and 4 Questions
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Liverwurst
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#1 Posted on 5.8.04 1038.35
Reposted on: 5.8.11 1039.40
I just got done watching Season 3 of Angel on DVD, I have a few questions.

1. What happened to Justine, Holtz's female friend?

2. Was Holtz's death on purpose ie making it look like Angel did it or was it Justine wanting revenge?

3. I caught half of Angel Season 4, so I'm anxious to get it on DVD, but I still have some questions about the end.
What did Jasmine need Angelus for if she had the Beast?

4. If Jasmine could be seen around the world why wasn;t the Buffy cast infected by her spell?

5. Anyone else get the feeling Jasmine was supposed to be the First and that the writers were making stuff up after Faith left?
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jvincion
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#2 Posted on 5.8.04 1132.51
Reposted on: 5.8.11 1134.04
1. Wesley had her locked up in his closet in the first ep of Season 4, and made her help him retrieve Angel from the ocean.

2. Holtz wanted Justine to kill him like that, so Connor would think that Angel did it (which Connor did), and would do something drastic (like sink Angel in the ocean).

3. I'm a little fuzzy on that myself, but I suppose she figured that it'd be better to have Angelus helping the destruction along, rather than having Angel fight her.

4. Probably because they were too swamped with their own stuff, since they had to train the potentials, along with having to fight the ubervamps, Caleb, and The First. They probably didn't have much time to turn on a TV with all that going on.

Plus, the power went out in Sunnydale right around the same time that Jasmine came into being due to everyone else vacating Sunnydale.

5. I don't think they really wanted to do the Jasmine stuff since they had done a pregnancy arc in the 3rd season with Darla, but Charisma (Cordy) became pregnant in real life, so they had to work with it.
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#3 Posted on 5.8.04 1207.03
Reposted on: 5.8.11 1207.22
I'd have to get the sets out and rewatch 'em to be certain, but I'm pretty sure that Jasmine's world-wide broadcast never made to the air due to the Fang Gang getting their shit together in time. She took over the local LA networks, but that's where the line was drawn, IIRC.
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#4 Posted on 5.8.04 1312.15
Reposted on: 5.8.11 1312.32
What did Jasmine need Angelus for if she had the Beast?
If memory serves, Jasmine was an old God from other dimensions who had walked the earth before mankind took over. It's possible she would have been around when the Shanshu Prophecy was written, thus knowing that "the Vampire with the Soul would play an important role in the apocalypse." Since she was conducting her own personal apocalypse, she'd probably want Angel to play the important role on her side.


If Jasmine could be seen around the world why wasn't the Buffy cast infected by her spell?
jvincion and oldschoolhero both make plausible explanations. But I'll also add: how many times did you ever see the Buffy kids watching the news unless it was a cheap plot device when someone ran in the room and said, "GUYS! YOU'VE GOTTA SEE WHAT'S ON THE NEWS!!!" Ninety percent of the time, those guys just didn't bother with the news. So unless they caught an LA news affiliate's cheap-ass morning show one day (and they were young: they'd never wake up for a morning show), chances are they'd never see it.
EddieBurkett
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#5 Posted on 5.8.04 1325.30
Reposted on: 5.8.11 1329.01
You need to be careful trying to cross reference stuff in Buffy with stuff in Angel during season 7/4. The way season 4 happens in Angel, most episodes pick up right where the last left off, so you almost get a 24-like riff happening. There's no way all that happened over the span of 22 weeks. From the time the sun blacked out to Jasmine's defeat, it probably works out to being a month or more. All we know for comparison with Buffy is when Willow jumps over to get Faith. We can match those two events, and its entirely possible (but unlikely) that if Jasmine was able to affect Sunnydale (which is unlikely -- I don't recall whether or not Angel and co. stopped her influence from reaching the world), it could have happend during a brief time while they were training the slayers, etc. From a storytelling standpoint, while it would have been fun to watch everyone acting all happy and dopey in some sort of crossover, that would have wasted an episode as they were building to the finale.
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#6 Posted on 5.8.04 1404.23
Reposted on: 5.8.11 1411.44
Just a little more Jasmine backstory/opinion: I always thought that the strong implication was that Jasmine was one of the Powers-That-Be, and that the entirety of Angel's LA quest (Doyle visiting him, passing the visions onto Cordy, all of the vision-based missioning they did early on) was Jasmine manipulating events so that she could return to Earth and rule as she wished. This is backed up by her having Skip in her employ (as well s his little "this was all planned" spiel in season four), as its clear that even though he may be a double agent, Skip's day job seems to be on the side of good/the PTB (see him guarding Billy in season three). THEN the remaining PTB stepped in during season five with the one-shot vision from Cordy, just to say "hey, we DO care, get your ass back in gear and save the world."
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#7 Posted on 5.8.04 1554.27
Reposted on: 5.8.11 1554.28
    Originally posted by A Fan

    4. If Jasmine could be seen around the world why wasn;t the Buffy cast infected by her spell?

    As mentioned earlier, Jasmine was seen on local Los Angeles television and was preparing for a global broadcast until Angel came back from the demon dimension in time to break her mojo. As for Buffy's crew not watching TV during this time, there was also the zaniness of the First that Sunnydale was dealing with. Things were getting so paranormal at the high school that all the Sunnydale residents were picking up on it and leaving town. Once they left town, it's anyone's guess if people got tuned into Jasmine's LA broadcasts.


    5. Anyone else get the feeling Jasmine was supposed to be the First and that the writers were making stuff up after Faith left?

Oldschoolhero got it right. I also believe Jasmine is one of TPTB that got fed up of watching the struggles of good vs. evil and decided to do something about it. She manipulated things here and there to bring about her birth, and they were unexplained miracles until Jasmine finally showed up. Examples are bringing Darla to life, allowing two vampires to make a baby, making Cordelia half-demon and having visions passed to her. Ultimately, it was to use half-demon Cordelia and son-of-two-vampires Connor to procreate to create uber-god Jasmine. There was some free will amongst the characters, but they were tricked to doing those things (Cordelia choosing to be half-demon, then ascending to a higher plane at end of Season 3).

The Beast was brought about to destroy various evil factions on Earth so Jasmine could come unopposed, hence the destruction of Wolfram & Hart's office as well as the "Axis of Evil". I think bringing forth Angelus was primarily a distraction for AI so they wouldn't get in the way.
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#8 Posted on 5.8.04 1732.52
Reposted on: 5.8.11 1736.12
    Originally posted by EddieBurkett
    All we know for comparison with Buffy is when Willow jumps over to get Faith.


We also know Angel visited Buffy after they defeated Jasmine and joined up with Wolfram and Hart. He brought the amulet that Spike ended up wearing during the final battle with the Ubervamps.
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#9 Posted on 5.8.04 1738.15
Reposted on: 5.8.11 1738.18
Slightly off-topic, but am I right in proclaiming that Season 4 of Angel was on par with the classic seasons 2-3 of Buffy? I'm not sure if I've ever been as eager for the next week's episode as I was with Angel that year, and that includes three years of watching 24.
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#10 Posted on 5.8.04 2104.23
Reposted on: 5.8.11 2107.27
FriedEgg, good call on correcting me.

On the one hand, I always felt that the "Jasmine was behind everything up till now" explanation for the whole series was weak, but at the same time, it tied the whole series together rather nicely at that point.

Personally, I thought Angel season 5 was able to bring the show together such that it made the whole series better than the awesomeness that was Buffy Seasons 2-3, although that opinion is subject to change on subsequent watchings.
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#11 Posted on 5.8.04 2353.55
Reposted on: 5.8.11 2354.22
    Originally posted by FriedEgg
      Originally posted by EddieBurkett
      All we know for comparison with Buffy is when Willow jumps over to get Faith.


    We also know Angel visited Buffy after they defeated Jasmine and joined up with Wolfram and Hart. He brought the amulet that Spike ended up wearing during the final battle with the Ubervamps.


Can't say I've watched Buffy as religiously as Angel; but I could swear Angel got the amulet by an unknown sender through the mail.
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#12 Posted on 6.8.04 0054.06
Reposted on: 6.8.11 0059.01
W&H gave Angel the amulet.
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#13 Posted on 6.8.04 0558.29
Reposted on: 6.8.11 0559.01
The amulet was thrown in to sweeten the Wolfram & Hart deal at the end of season four, with Lilah telling Angel it would help he and Buffy to stop The First. Then it was sent back to him at the start of season five, containing Spike's ghost. They didn't reveal who was behind it-as well as Spike's recorporealisation-right away, but it was later either implied or outright stated that Lindsey was the guy pulling the strings.

And I'm kinda with Eddie on the whole quality thing. In my own damn opinion, nothing-and I mean NOTHING-tops the sheer quality of season three Buffy (God I love the Mayor), but Angel season five, with a couple more viewings, could well knock season two of Buffy off of second place.
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#14 Posted on 6.8.04 0820.27
Reposted on: 6.8.11 0826.53
Cool. Thanks for the answers, guys. However, I talked to my friend and he stated Wesley killed Justine in the beginning of Season 4 after he saved Angel. Is that true, because he said he was a bit fuzzy on that even though I never saw her during the Angelus arc. Did anyone else get the feeling the Angel big bads, Holtz, Lyndsy and Wolfram and Hart even really got what they deserved. In Buffy, the big bads usually end up dead at the end of the season where Angel's bads keep sticking around while another one pops up. I just found it a bit weird.

I do believe Season 5 of Angel is the best season of Angel even with the bad ending. Season 1 is in second place followed by 4,2 and 3. Not to say 3 was bad, but its just some damn depressing. I'm with komarkaze, Season 3 Buffy is the best Buffy all around season, season 6 has the best ending though, Xander saving the world.
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#15 Posted on 6.8.04 0823.58
Reposted on: 6.8.11 0828.37
    Originally posted by A Fan
    I do believe Season 5 of Angel is the best season of Angel even with the bad ending.


When I first read about the ending, I did not like it. However, by the time I saw it (a couple weeks later), I decided it was very appropriate for the show and its message and now I think it was great. Obviously, I would've preferred the show not ended, but it did, and I'm glad they went out fighting.
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#16 Posted on 6.8.04 0851.32
Reposted on: 6.8.11 0859.01
Oh man Angel's finale kicked the Buffy finale's ass in so many ways it's not even funny. I loved the four of them charging into battle at the end. I loved Wes' goodbye. I LOVED LOVED LOVED Lorne's exit, which is maybe the best write-out ever in the history of either show for characterisation and execution.

Fan, Wes definitely did NOT kill Justine. He left her handcuffed to a railing at the docks, gave her a pretentious speech about choosing to live her life or being a slave to vengeance, then he tossed her the cuff keys as he drove away. And that was the last we saw of her.

Also, I don't think Angle ever really followed the Big Bad structure as stringently as Buffy's did. The first season just kinda floated with W&H causing some mischief and didn't build to anything, and the second ended in the bizarr-o Pylea trilogy which just came totally outta left-field. I guess seasons three and four, with Holtz and Jasmine, kinda stuck to it a bit more, but even then Holtz didn't have any big huge plans.
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#17 Posted on 6.8.04 1023.28
Reposted on: 6.8.11 1024.19
    Originally posted by Tod deKindes
      Originally posted by FriedEgg
        Originally posted by EddieBurkett
        All we know for comparison with Buffy is when Willow jumps over to get Faith.


      We also know Angel visited Buffy after they defeated Jasmine and joined up with Wolfram and Hart. He brought the amulet that Spike ended up wearing during the final battle with the Ubervamps.


    Can't say I've watched Buffy as religiously as Angel; but I could swear Angel got the amulet by an unknown sender through the mail.


W&H gave Angel the amulet to sweeten the deal to sign with them, which he did. Angel then took the amulet to Sunnydale and give it to Buffy who gave it to Spike to save the world. Everyone thought the amulet went up in smoke or dust or whatever with SPike in the Buffy finale. Then on Angel he did get the amulet in the mail from an unknown sender which had Spike in it and he was released.
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#18 Posted on 6.8.04 1900.05
Reposted on: 6.8.11 1903.33
Holtz wasn't really a villain, though he was a dick and he was season 3's 'big bad' (hey, they stole my name! ) After all, Angelus ruined his life, so you could kinda see his point. Holtz was a really intriguing character, and J. Keith Sczabarazcacbza did a decent job in the role, but I just don't think he was used to his full potential. Then again, Season 3 of Angel was (aside from the last 4-5 episodes) godawful since that was the year of Firefly's existence and thus Mutant Enemy was spread too thin producing three shows. Buffy season six was also very weak, with only three really memorable shows (the one where Warren kills his girlfriend, the one where they all get amnesia and the musical).

Personally, I'd rank them....

* Buffy Season 3
* Angel S4
* Buffy S2
* Angel S5
* Buffy S4
* Buffy S5
* Angel S1
* Buffy S1 (though it was only a half-year)
* Angel S2
* Buffy S6
* Angel S3
* Buffy S7

EddieBurkett
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#19 Posted on 6.8.04 2023.34
Reposted on: 6.8.11 2024.43
I'm sorry, but Season 6 can't be *all* that bad if only for the Giles run in on the Buffy-Willow main event. I will concede that the rest of it (save for those few moments you highlighted) weren't all that great. (On a sidenote, does anyone remember the week they aired the episode where Buffy was rendered invisible, to hype it on Smackdown Lawler hid under his desk and pretended he was invisible?)

I also don't think you can rank them individually as seasons. I feel like seasons 1-3 of Buffy was a separate show in its own right, with alot of stuff happening in seasons one and especially two being paid off in season three. Season six also felt like it tied up alot of stuff that had started since season four. Seven was just abysmal. There's an essay in the book "Seven Seasons of Buffy" which features a coda written by the author, Justine Larbalestier, that talks about how much season seven sucked. "No episode of season seven made me cry. Well, okay, except tears of disbelief that the show could possibly have become so bad."

As an exercise someone should go back and find all the times I wrote during season seven how awesome the show was. Then again, maybe they shouldn't...

Its easy for me to group Buffy into three distinct sets (1-3, 4-6, and 7), but because Angel didn't follow set seasonly arcs, its harder to delineate its boundaries. The Angel vs. Wolfram and Hart segued nicely into Angel vs. Darla into Angel vs. Connor into Angel vs. Jasmine. Season five felt like the only time the show had a clearly marked change, and even then, it was able to relate everything to events prior that it was awesome. To that extent, I feel the last two seasons of Angel justified the shows existance as a whole, and I have to feel that the overall story of Angel 1-5, especially as it wrapped up, is better than any of the arcs on Buffy.

And as much as I'm disappointed that the ending to Angel didn't feature a conclusion to their fight, it made total sense, and I loved it. At least the show didn't whimper a conclusion like Buffy did.
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#20 Posted on 7.8.04 0837.03
Reposted on: 7.8.11 0842.29
I find it hard to believe on this board, people hating on Season Seven of Buffy. One of my favorite things to do was to come here and discuss how everyone loved it. I think Season Seven's greatest appeal was the mystery of who was behind it all. Once, it was revealed to be the First, then you had the is Giles the First question after that it came down to how is it going to end? I thought they did a great job with the suspense of everything, but I will agree after killing the first UberVamp, it kinda slide down til Calab came in and fucked up Xander and most of the potentials. Still, I enjoyed it for what it was and if you don't get a little misty when Spike scarifices himself at the end, then you honestly to need to go to Oz, so you the wizard can give you a heart.

I love Season Six of Buffy, because it was like Season 3 of Angel, it just had a better ending. It dealt more with the adult world than high school or college problems., so I could relate to that. I do believe Season Six is a big payoff to season 4 and 5. I will say season 5 is the worst season, too many whinny chicks for my taste plus I would have pushed Dawn in at the end and start frest in Season Six.
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