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26.7.07 0423
The 7 - Pro Wrestling - Womens division woes
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vsp
Andouille
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#21 Posted on 21.3.02 0849.15
Reposted on: 21.3.09 0859.08
>On that point I concede. The CW/LHW div (to me) consists of Tajiri, X-Pac (he's back) Scotty 2 Hotty, Spike , Crash, Funaki, and Hurricane. I guess that the Hardy's (who are both under 225) aren't counted in the ranks of CWs, and everyone else is either dark matching, house showing or in OVW/HWA.
-

Well, my point is that if the cruiserweights aren't wrestling each other and the belts aren't defended, there IS no cruiserweight division any more. Neither Tajiri's nor X-Pac's belts were defended at Wrestlemania, for example. The last Tajiri match I saw was him getting slaughtered by Booker T. Spike and Scotty have been in the heavyweight tag division. When was the last time you saw an all-cruiserweight match on Raw or Smackdown, whether or not it was for the belt(s)?

But we get the women's division on Raw and/or Smackdown just about every week, because they're better wrestl... er... because they give great interv... er... because their angles are so well written... er... well, because they're DIVAS and most of them have great big hooters. I suppose that's reason enough for Vince.
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#22 Posted on 21.3.02 0907.51
Reposted on: 21.3.09 0911.42
Someone called for the return of Tori, a worker so bad and uncharismatic she was drummed out of the promotion after one week of her "comeback" (with Raven).

People have implied that Jazz and Trish are good workers.

Have you guys ever seen *good* women's wrestling? A bad fisherman buster or sloppy rollup does not a worker make.

Ayako Hamada wanted to talk to Vince about the WWF. Gawd help us all.

Too bad Bull Nakano was, ya know, a cokehead- otherwise we might still get good female workers on TV.

Meanwhile women who can work like Malia Hosaka, Daffney Unger, Lexi Fyfe and Little Jeanie languish in obscurity. But Trish has B00BS~! Hoorah!

Women's wrestling in the WWF is merely sidebar fodder, barely even mentioned. The women's championship has been known to vanish for months on end with no explanation.

Jumping Bomb Angels, anyone?
DMC
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#23 Posted on 21.3.02 1121.46
Reposted on: 21.3.09 1122.52
Yes it has been known to vanish, but I agree with Zim that it doesn't seem likely to go away for quite awhile now. It is gaining too much popularity even if they still sometimes mess up their moves. But hell you have to admit it is a lot more interesting to watch then it has ever been.

And come on stop bashing Trish. Yes she is a bikini model but look how far she has come. And I don't agree that Jazz "dumbs down" her matches with her or anyone else. Jazz dominates, but I think a Trish win over Jazz is believable. Have it be a "pulled it out of her butt" miracle win with Jackie as a ref making sure there is no interference from Ivory (assuming a Jazz-Ivory team-up is happening). Then eventually set-up a Trish-Molly feud with Trish loosing in a "we respect eachother but let's have an awesome tooth and nail match" deal.

There you go, I just set up the womens division for the next month or so. Hope you enjoy
DMC
vsp
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#24 Posted on 21.3.02 1156.53
Reposted on: 21.3.09 1157.26

    Originally posted by DMC
    But hell you have to admit it is a lot more interesting to watch then it has ever been.
    DMC



Why do we "have to" admit that? What we have now isn't the train wreck of Wendi Richter/Cyndi Lauper vs. Moolah, or the she-male hijinks of Nicole Bass or Chyna, but Trish isn't all that different from Sable -- a woman with huge jugs who can pull off a few moves, and who builds a following around the former instead of the latter. Trish has certainly improved over where she once was, but do we really need her matches taking up TV time once a week, with a lot of other (and more capable) wrestlers sitting around unused? I think not.

The only significant difference between right now and, say, the Blayze or Richter periods is the "Divas" concept -- which is McMahon smartening up and realizing that More Hooters == More Ratings. The actual wrestling is no better than in years past, the formula is the same (one face, one heel, two JTTS), but the marketing is more tightly focused on sex appeal. It's like a Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue that's year-round, with occasional Cinemax moments like the Torrie-Stacy catfights or gravy-bowl matches just to keep things lively.

Personally, I found the few and brief attempts to push credible women's wrestling in the Big Two (the JB Angels were jawdropping in their day and context, and WCW had freakin' AKIRA HOKUTO on national TV and had no idea what to do with her) _much_ more interesting than the current situation.

Travis
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#25 Posted on 21.3.02 1200.49
Reposted on: 21.3.09 1201.20
Didn't you see Trish at Wrestlemania, blowing spots like she was Sabu with tits? Really, she was the second worst worker in that match- only because Lita was sitting right there and Jazz at least can hit her shitty moves (except the STF).

I thought it was cute when she learned the bulldog and hit it better than most of the men on the roster. And when she decided to get all spring-boardy with it, I had no objection. But to call her a "good worker" is quite a stretch of the term. More accurate would be "greek girl with a butter face and fake tits that can occasionally hit a springboard bulldog".

But that's quite a mouthful...pardon the pun.
shea
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#26 Posted on 21.3.02 1230.36
Reposted on: 21.3.09 1232.52
    Originally posted by DMC
    ...even if they still sometimes mess up their moves.


That's how people get hurt, and hurt bad.

And who wants to see that?


(edited by shea on 21.3.02 1031)
BDC
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#27 Posted on 21.3.02 1237.49
Reposted on: 21.3.09 1253.59

    Originally posted by Papercuts!
    Depends on how big a pervert you are and what audience the WWF wants to reach, I suppose. In high school and college, the loose women were always more popular with a majority of guys.


Not one person gave you the credit you richly deserve for bringing such highbrow observations to this discussion of women's wrestling. Bravo, sir.

BDC
DMC
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#28 Posted on 21.3.02 1246.14
Reposted on: 21.3.09 1255.19
Sorry but Trish has more in-ring ability than Sable IMHO. Does she *really* rely on sex that much when she's in the ring? It's not like we're seeing her pull off any hip-griding power bombs.

Yeah she messed up at Wrestlemania and RAW but you still have to expect that to happen occasionally. (Don't *all* the women screw up from time to time?) If she continues to improve and pulls off quality performances more often than screw ups, you can't fault her just because she's not nasty looking. With a little more work she will be in Ivory and Jazz's league as far as I can tell, and to come from a swimsuit model to a bona fide female wrestler deserves SOME kind of credit for the definite work that had to go into that.

DMC
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#29 Posted on 21.3.02 1340.56
Reposted on: 21.3.09 1343.25
Riot, Jungle Grrrl, and Beckie the Farmer's Daughter were major league talents IMHO. Wendi Wheels and Roxy Powers also seemed like people the WWF could do something with. Umm, try to forget how dumb these gimmicks were.

I'm surprised they didn't pick up Daffney... yeah, they usually are fixated on T&A, but they do have Jazz, Ivory, and Molly, so you'd think there'd be a chance. To be fair, Daffney was not as polished a wrestler as those three. Of course, the WOW women are not exactly polished either, since they went on TV with only three months' training and the show (which only lasted for four months) hasn't been on for over a year.

The current Tough Enough crew does look far more likely to produce a legitimate female contender than the last one.

It was just stupid not to have Trish win at WM, I feel. Jazz has absolutely zero heat. She can wrestle, but who cares.

Lita just gets worse and worse. Could she possibly be more obvious with the "here's the fake Twist of Fate, please whip me into the ropes" thing? It used to be that she was so over that she was the best hope for the division anyway, but that is probably not true anymore.
Travis
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#30 Posted on 21.3.02 1347.51
Reposted on: 21.3.09 1348.26
Daffney trained extensively at the Power Plant and is allegedly (I'm still waiting on tapes) stealing the show at Dusty's TCW shows, wrestling Malia Hosaka and whatnot.
There's also a girl who wrestles UPW or Millenium Pro (some SoCal indy with Jardi Franz)...she has a cheerleader gimmick, I think her name is Melissa. She's supposed to be the bee's knees.
She was mentioned in the latest DVDVR, iirc.

And Wendi Wheels was a piece.
dfallan
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#31 Posted on 21.3.02 1404.12
Reposted on: 21.3.09 1411.54
Okay First Off, WOW Failing need not be a sign that there is no market for women's wrestling.

As Smarts and Smarks, would ANY of us expect quality Wrestling from DAVID McLANE? THe Guy who brought us the Gourgeous Ladies of Wrestling Debacle.

I never got to see WOW, cause it never aired locally, so one has to consider that maybe there just wasn't a percieved market by the Powers that decide what goes on.
(On a complete and total Aside, I recall Glow from when I was younger, was Ron Jeremy on staff as a ref?)

Anyways, I was impressed with Trish at Mania, and will have to review the tape to see what moves she blew as I seem to mainly recall the ones she hit and looked good at.
However for those saying she still bites, consider
1) SHe has Improved seriously
2) A lot of times moves require BOTH people to make them look good
3) Since when has lack of ring ability been the death knell for every person under contract with the WWF.
4) Improvement usually depends upon working with others often. How many dates are the women working?

As for Recruiting, some of you seem to feel that some of the WOW women had talent, and I caught a tape of an east coast Org. called GLOOW (They got a website www.gloow.com) that was recorded (for TV I guess??) in a bar, and While a lot of it was just cheesecake, I'll be damned if some of the women didn't sell moves well, work the crowd (With the Mic) and actually put together a few decent matches.

The potential is there, but it would take an actual commitment by the WWF, and it would take time to develop.
shea
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#32 Posted on 21.3.02 1405.30
Reposted on: 21.3.09 1421.19

What about Taylor from Tough Enough 1?

She seemed capable of a decent five minutes. What I'm seeing from Jazz, Trish et al. doesn't seem much better than what I saw Taylor crank out.
Travis
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#33 Posted on 21.3.02 1412.23
Reposted on: 21.3.09 1424.29
Don't go dissing GLOW, dude. Where do you think Ivory worked in the 80's? (She's old, but such the MILF.)
As for Taylor, she at least gave us the creepiest Vince quote ever:
"Great facials."

GLOOW is total rubbish, they use strippers. However I hear that G.I. Ho bumps well (rimshot).

I bet Debra Wilson from Mad TV would make a good WWF women's wrestler...she's got a huge rack and she throws good worked punches in her skits. Thus making her a better worker than Lita.

Kidding.
Sorta.
DMC
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#34 Posted on 21.3.02 1859.55
Reposted on: 21.3.09 1905.47
Is Taylor that huge blonde chick or one of the other ones?

DMC
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#35 Posted on 21.3.02 2209.06
Reposted on: 21.3.09 2211.35
Taylor was "one of the others." Specifically, the other
finalist.

Also, count me as a Trish defender. She could have settled for being used as pure eye candy, but she has worked hard to improve and become legit in the ring. Yes, she can still blow spots, but plenty of men do it, too. The difference is that she has shown continuous improvement.
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#36 Posted on 21.3.02 2322.46
Reposted on: 21.3.09 2323.09
Hey, GLOW at the time was the best midnight wrestling program around. The Wild Samoans got the raw fish gimmick from Matilda the Hun (Queen Kong) eating raw meat. And the Heavy Metal Sisters were real hardcore, when hardcore meant Abdullah the Butcher and Buiser Brody (rest his soul), not Maven and Golddust. The only problem was that after Spanish Red left the show, and Ninotchka became 'capitalist', the in-ring action, which was slight, really slacked off.

Anyway, I think we will be forced to thank or blame Stephanie for bringing women's wrestling to the forefront if what I think will happen on Raw will happen.
Guru Zim
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#37 Posted on 22.3.02 0141.32
Reposted on: 22.3.09 0143.51
I think that WOW was much better to what we are seeing now in the womens division.

If you want to look at people with better wrestling skills, you'd have 4 or 5 women that were more talented in my opinion.

If you want to look at their appearance, there were probably 2 or 3 women that were at the same level as the WWF Divas or better (Ice Cold was a hotty, as was Becky and the one who bought the ranch... the disciplinarian? She had some teacher gimmick)

They had at least one tag team that was a pretty good knock off of the Dudley Boys moveset (Caged Heat).

Was it 5 star wrestling? Nope. It was pretty entertaining though. There were occasional high spots (usually by the ref - he bumped REALLY hard off of a cage at the PPV) and the "who has the better splash" move between Jungle Grrrl and Becky at the PPV was pretty impressive.

Dammit - Get Becky back on my TV stat!
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#38 Posted on 23.3.02 0213.30
Reposted on: 23.3.09 0213.34
WOW was just a hell of a lot of fun. Was the work great? No, not really...and the gimmicks were horrendous and more cartoonish than anything since Vince's worst steroid-hazed days of Doink and Bastion Booger. But, nonetheless, it was just pure fun. And some of the girls had definite potention, while the rest were usually damn nice to look at at least.

The best workers for the WWF would probably be Jungle Grrrl and/or Riot. Especially Riot. Damn that girl could powerbomb. Plus, she'd make a great hard-ass face to throw up against Jazz. Ice (was that her name?) wasn't bad either, especially on the mic. Just keep Thug and Serena Majors off my TV *shudder*. Yeah, they could brawl, but the mullets of death were just INSANE, man, INSANE!
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#39 Posted on 23.3.02 0648.23
Reposted on: 23.3.09 0651.27
Indy wrestlers are better than big timers.

Ugly women are more talented than good looking ones.

Japanese wrestlers are better than Americans.

Only the last one is true and it doesn't have to be,but it will take time for the U.S. girls to develope. I think they're off to good start.

If i remember correctly the difference between Sable and Trish is that Sable wouldn't bump, so she wasn't much use as a wrestler. Trish on the other hand is a pretty good bumper, as several people have noted.

WTF13
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#40 Posted on 23.3.02 0805.19
Reposted on: 23.3.09 0806.54
Still, a guy who wrestled like Trish would have trouble even getting a dark match. You can say she's improved and I guess she has, but she's still not good by any stretch of the imagination. I think the WWF would be better off to axe the idea of a women's division and just have an occasional match here and there.
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