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The 7 - Current Events & Politics - AP - Bremer Knew of Prisoner Abuse in November Register and log in to post!
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spf
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#1 Posted on 3.5.04 1301.12
Reposted on: 3.5.11 1303.47
This surely can't help the PR war over there for us. And really in the end, that is the war we need to win. The Israel example has shown that it's pretty damn near impossible to end terror through military means alone I would say. The article can be found here (story.news.yahoo.com)

BAGHDAD (AFP) - Former Iraqi human rights minister Abdel Basset Turki said US overseer Paul Bremer knew in November that Iraqi prisoners were being abused in US detention centres.

"In November I talked to Mr Bremer about human rights violations in general and in jails in particular. He listened but there was no answer. At the first meeting, I asked to be allowed to visit the security prisoners, but I failed," Turki told AFP on Monday.


"I told him the news. He didn't take care about the information I gave him." The coalition had no immediate comment about Turki's meeting with Bremer.


The minister, whose resignation was formally accepted by the coalition on Sunday, said he told Bremer about his meetings with former detainees.


"The prisoners I spoke to, they told me about how Iraqi prisoners were left in the sun on US bases for hours, prevented to pray and wash and left for two days on a chair and kicked at Abu Gharib," he said.


That was a reference to the largest prison in the country, located outside Baghdad, where a US Army enquiry found guards humiliated detainees, forced them to strip naked and perform mock fellatio and other sexual activities.


Since January, 17 people have been implicated in the scandal, including the general who ran the prison system in Iraq (news - web sites). Pictures of the abuse obtained by media outlets last week have caused outrage around the world.


But Turki said he had not been aware of the activities uncovered in the US Army probe when he met Bremer.


That enquiry was initiated after a US soldier in the prison stepped forward and informed the army's Criminal Investigation Division some time after November 1.


The top US commander in Iraq, Lieutenant General Ricardo Sanchez, then ordered a full criminal and administrative investigation that led to the suspension of 17 soldiers and officers.


A third investigation is now examining whether intelligence officers or civilian contractors encouraged the abuse to weaken prisoners ahead of interrorgations.


Turki said he had also raised concerns about prisoner abuse to the International Committee of the Red Cross, but they refused to share information with him.


Turki resigned from his post on April 8 in anger over the US military offensives on Najaf and Fallujah and it was officially accepted Sunday by the coalition, the human rights ministry said Monday.


The US-dominated CPA has cited human rights as a motivating factor in the invasion last spring to oust the authoritarian regime of Saddam Hussein (news - web sites).


The coalition demanded human rights protections be inserted into the transitional law that is expected to govern Iraq until a permanent constitution is drafted by the end of 2005.


But the scenes of intense street fighting when US forces assaulted Fallujah on April 5, in a hunt for insurgents who brutally murdered four US contractors, triggered revulsion among pro-coalition Iraqis.
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CRZ
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#2 Posted on 3.5.04 1339.11
Reposted on: 3.5.11 1339.45
    Originally posted by spf2119
    But Turki said he had not been aware of the activities uncovered in the US Army probe when he met Bremer.
Oh, well.

Why's he talking to l'Agence France-Presse and not to, say, the AP?

I think I'll hold out until the other wires pick up this story. (It hasn't made Google yet)

In short, this forum really needs more to it than dueling cut'n'paste artists. I don't know what that is, but I'm going to start thinking harder about it.
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#3 Posted on 3.5.04 1520.31
Reposted on: 3.5.11 1520.34
It just made CNN this morning. The reports indicate or at least what the guards are saying is that they were instructed by the CIA and other "Top" brass to weaken the Iraqis' will. The more they go into this story, the more pissed I get since no one is actually going to be held accountable for this crime.
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#4 Posted on 4.5.04 1950.05
Reposted on: 4.5.11 1951.14
    Originally posted by spf2119
    This surely can't help the PR war over there for us. And really in the end, that is the war we need to win. The Israel example has shown that it's pretty damn near impossible to end terror through military means alone I would say.

I really agree with that statement, the Israel way of counteracting a terrorist attack should be a guideline of what NOT to do. All you do is continue the ugly cycle of revenge. The only person who gets anything out of it is the country who specialize in weapons making
Von Maestro
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#5 Posted on 4.5.04 2145.23
Reposted on: 4.5.11 2146.12
    Originally posted by Net Hack Slasher
      Originally posted by spf2119
      This surely can't help the PR war over there for us. And really in the end, that is the war we need to win. The Israel example has shown that it's pretty damn near impossible to end terror through military means alone I would say.

    I really agree with that statement, the Israel way of counteracting a terrorist attack should be a guideline of what NOT to do. All you do is continue the ugly cycle of revenge. The only person who gets anything out of it is the country who specialize in weapons making


Actually, I would say the reason Israel has not defeated terror is because they fooled themselves into thinking they could negotiate with it. Terrorists have no real goals other than the deaths & destruction of their enemies. No negotiation or concession will change that.

The sooner we understand this psyche of terror, the sooner we will stop trying to fight them within guidelines they have no regard for...
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#6 Posted on 5.5.04 0815.45
Reposted on: 5.5.11 0816.03
However, this is the fodder terrorists need to keep anti-US sentiment stirred up. Every time you lower yourself to the level of your enemy, they win. This certainly doesn't hurt terrorist's recruiting.
Jonny_English
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#7 Posted on 5.5.04 0922.05
Reposted on: 5.5.11 0922.34
    Originally posted by Von Maestro
      Originally posted by Net Hack Slasher
        Originally posted by spf2119
        This surely can't help the PR war over there for us. And really in the end, that is the war we need to win. The Israel example has shown that it's pretty damn near impossible to end terror through military means alone I would say.

      I really agree with that statement, the Israel way of counteracting a terrorist attack should be a guideline of what NOT to do. All you do is continue the ugly cycle of revenge. The only person who gets anything out of it is the country who specialize in weapons making


    Actually, I would say the reason Israel has not defeated terror is because they fooled themselves into thinking they could negotiate with it. Terrorists have no real goals other than the deaths & destruction of their enemies. No negotiation or concession will change that.

    The sooner we understand this psyche of terror, the sooner we will stop trying to fight them within guidelines they have no regard for...


The British government seem to have done OK with Irish terror groups, through structured negotiation and integration into the political mainstream. Whilst I appreciate that you would struggle to welcome al-qaeda into the mainstream, the reason most terrorist groups resort to armed conflict is that they feel there is no legitimate platform for their voice to be heard. Small compromises may lead to improved dialogue, which, if nutured for long enough, just may lead to peace.

DrDirt, you are spot on.
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#8 Posted on 5.5.04 0931.44
Reposted on: 5.5.11 0932.13
    Originally posted by Jonny_English
    The British government seem to have done OK with Irish terror groups, through structured negotiation and integration into the political mainstream. Whilst I appreciate that you would struggle to welcome al-qaeda into the mainstream, the reason most terrorist groups resort to armed conflict is that they feel there is no legitimate platform for their voice to be heard. Small compromises may lead to improved dialogue, which, if nutured for long enough, just may lead to peace.

    DrDirt, you are spot on.


Seeing as the IRA's goal was/is not the total destruction of anything non-Irish, I really don't see how they are analogous to Al-Qaeda (or any other Islamic Fundamentalist terror group)...

And Doc, while this was an awful act & does not paint America in a good light, it hardly serves as any more fodder for the terrorists. They held these sentiments through various Presidencies & will continue to hold these feelings as long as we live our lives in the manner we do (read: not Muslim).
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#9 Posted on 5.5.04 0935.24
Reposted on: 5.5.11 0935.27
    Originally posted by Jonny_English
    Whilst I appreciate that you would struggle to welcome al-qaeda into the mainstream, the reason most terrorist groups resort to armed conflict is that they feel there is no legitimate platform for their voice to be heard. Small compromises may lead to improved dialogue, which, if nutured for long enough, just may lead to peace.
You do not have peace with an organization that wants to destroy Western Civilization. Thinking that you can is naive and dangerous...
Jonny_English
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#10 Posted on 5.5.04 0945.01
Reposted on: 5.5.11 0945.09
To clarify, and I apologise for any miunderstanding, my comments about intergration and negotiation were specific to Israel and Ireland, not al-qaeda. I do not consider any Irish group to be analogous with al-qaeda.

(edited by Jonny_English on 5.5.04 0746)
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#11 Posted on 5.5.04 1003.58
Reposted on: 5.5.11 1004.36
    Originally posted by Von Maestro
      Originally posted by Jonny_English
      The British government seem to have done OK with Irish terror groups, through structured negotiation and integration into the political mainstream. Whilst I appreciate that you would struggle to welcome al-qaeda into the mainstream, the reason most terrorist groups resort to armed conflict is that they feel there is no legitimate platform for their voice to be heard. Small compromises may lead to improved dialogue, which, if nutured for long enough, just may lead to peace.

      DrDirt, you are spot on.


    Seeing as the IRA's goal was/is not the total destruction of anything non-Irish, I really don't see how they are analogous to Al-Qaeda (or any other Islamic Fundamentalist terror group)...

    And Doc, while this was an awful act & does not paint America in a good light, it hardly serves as any more fodder for the terrorists. They held these sentiments through various Presidencies & will continue to hold these feelings as long as we live our lives in the manner we do (read: not Muslim).


We cannot give them any fodder. This kind of thing affects those not oposed to us and who are happy Saddam is gone. We must not turn the average Iraqi against us. We know it isn't any more than a small group of people, they may not see that point. These are people who don't have musch trust in the people controlling their lives to begin with (with good reason). To win the war, we must win thier hearts and this will take ages to overcome.
Von Maestro
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#12 Posted on 5.5.04 1031.34
Reposted on: 5.5.11 1031.51
    Originally posted by Jonny_English
    To clarify, and I apologise for any miunderstanding, my comments about intergration and negotiation were specific to Israel and Ireland, not al-qaeda. I do not consider any Irish group to be analogous with al-qaeda.

    (edited by Jonny_English on 5.5.04 0746)


Seeing as the groups that terrorize Israel want the total destruction of Israel, I still do not see how you find them analogous to the IRA situation.
Again, you can not negotiate with those whose only goal is your total death & destruction.

Doc, I totally agree that we can not give them this kind of fodder, & must come down hard & fast on these animals (which we are doing).
We must also send a clear message to the Iraqi people & the Arab world that these actions are neither acceptable nor indicative of the American people (which I think we are on the road to doing as well... http://story.news.yahoo.com/ news?tmpl=story&cid=514& e=1&u=/ap/20040505/ap_on_go_pr_wh/ bush_prisoner_abuse )

My basic point was that even had these things not happened, the terrorists would still find their recruits as long as we remain the Great Satan in their eyes...
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#13 Posted on 5.5.04 1108.09
Reposted on: 5.5.11 1108.21
The aims of the PLO are essentially to remove (in their opinion) illegal occupiers of their homeland. In this, their situation is entirely analogous to that of the various Irish republican movements. These groups merely seek self determination for their people, as did the Jews for the past few hundred years, until Palestine was gifted to them by the UN. Whilst I condemn wholeheartedly any terrorist action, I find myself sympathetic to the cause of both the PLO and the IRA.

The example of how the Irish situation has been dealt with should offer an insight for the Israeli's to deal with the Palestinians. Compromise and counter offer have created a virtual, though fragile, peace in Northern Ireland. If I lived in Gaza or Jerusalem, a fragile peace would be better than a helicopter attack or the guy next to me on the bus blowing himself up. Violence will NEVER eradicate terrorism in the Middle East, merely prolong terrorist activities. Peaceful discourse in the midst of a ceasefire, no matter how fragile, is the only way forward.

Feel free to hunt al-qaeda to the ends of the Earth and eradicate those guys like the vermin they are (just try not to immorally invade to many foreign nations under false pretences, and murder its civilians, while your doing it), and no-one will mind, but a seek and destroy approach to the Middle East is doomed to failure.
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#14 Posted on 5.5.04 1131.54
Reposted on: 5.5.11 1132.28
    Originally posted by Jonny_English
    The aims of the PLO are essentially to remove (in their opinion) illegal occupiers of their homeland.


And this is why you don't understand the difference between the PLO & the IRA...
The PLO does not want the "illegal occupiers" removed from their homeland. They want the "illegal occupiers" (read: Jews & Israelis) removed from the Earth.

This movement for a Palestinian homeland is a fairly recent invention (post 1967), & has less to do with Israel & more to do with wiping Israelis off the face of the planet.
Which by the way, is made evident by the fact that the PLO was founded in 1964 & Arafat's Fatah in 1958, years before there was ever a movement for a "Palestinian homeland".
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#15 Posted on 5.5.04 1440.19
Reposted on: 5.5.11 1441.51
Not according to the PLO Charter, Von Maestro. They want to remove a Zionist presence from what they consider to be Palestinian territory. Regardless of past aims, their present aims are clearly stated. My original point remains valid. Tit for tat killings will never achieve peace in the region.

Link: http://www.iris.org.il/plochart.htm
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#16 Posted on 5.5.04 1457.22
Reposted on: 5.5.11 1459.03
    Originally posted by Jonny_English
    Not according to the PLO Charter, Von Maestro. They want to remove a Zionist presence from what they consider to be Palestinian territory. Regardless of past aims, their present aims are clearly stated. My original point remains valid. Tit for tat killings will never achieve peace in the region.

    Link: http://www.iris.org.il/ plochart.htm
Your defense of the PLO fucking disgusts me.

Please admit that you are a terrorist appeaser and move on.
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#17 Posted on 5.5.04 1505.36
Reposted on: 5.5.11 1507.09
That's bullshit Grimis. It saddens me that this has descended so. My entire point, which I repeat, is that tit for tat killings will not solve the problems in the Middle East, which are in fact analogous to the problems in Northern Ireland (admittedly by occupation rather than UN mandate). Northern Ireland is now peaceful (for the time being) through compromise and discussion, not suicide bombings or retaliatory helicopter attacks.

Where do I defend the PLO? I can sympathise with their situation, not their methods. Can you not sympathise with a people that consider themselves (rightly or wrongly) to be occupied and repressed (is that not very issue our governments are defending the invasion of Iraq on seeing as no WMD's have shown up)? Or shall we just decide that your next door neighbour will now live in three quarters of your house and expect you not to be pissed off, not to want to throw the guy out?

(edited by Jonny_English on 5.5.04 1307)
Von Maestro
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#18 Posted on 5.5.04 1505.43
Reposted on: 5.5.11 1510.37
    Originally posted by Jonny_English
    Not according to the PLO Charter, Von Maestro. They want to remove a Zionist presence from what they consider to be Palestinian territory. Regardless of past aims, their present aims are clearly stated. My original point remains valid. Tit for tat killings will never achieve peace in the region.

    Link: http://www.iris.org.il/ plochart.htm


Um Jonny, you're kidding right...???

From your link: "the liquidation of the Zionist presence".

You do know what it means to "liquidate" something, right?

You are right about one thing, the aims of the PLO are clearly stated & they are the aims of an entity that can not be negotiated with.

As a matter of what the PLO wants, take a peak at the map of "Palestine" that Arafat wears on his uniform sometime. It looks A LOT like the map of Israel...
Jonny_English
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#19 Posted on 5.5.04 1514.00
Reposted on: 5.5.11 1514.00
liquidate ( P ) Pronunciation Key (lkw-dt)
v. liquidated, liquidating, liquidates
v. tr.

To pay off (a debt, a claim, or an obligation); settle.
To settle the affairs of (a business firm, for example) by determining the liabilities and applying the assets to their discharge.
To convert (assets) into cash.
To put an end to; abolish.
To put to death; kill.
From www.dictionary.com

Can mean kill, can mean abolsih.

Sinn Fin is an Irish Republican party. Our objective is to end British rule in Ireland. We seek national self-determination, the unity and independence of Ireland as a sovereign state.

From http://sinnfein.org

How do they differ other than in use of the word 'liquidate', which you choose to interpret as kill, slaughter etc..
Von Maestro
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#20 Posted on 5.5.04 1523.16
Reposted on: 5.5.11 1525.52
    Originally posted by Jonny_English
    How do they differ other than in use of the word 'liquidate', which you choose to interpret as kill, slaughter etc..


Wow, just wow.

I suppose you're right. The PLO must want to simply convert Israel to cash!!

If I didn't know The W's standards better, I'd think I was being trolled...
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