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The 7 - Current Events & Politics - Iraqi prisoner abuse Register and log in to post!
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Joe E. Nitro
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#1 Posted on 30.4.04 0654.13
Reposted on: 30.4.11 0654.32
Here's another reason for the Arab world to strap bombs to themselves and declare jihad Click Here (news.bbc.co.uk)

Are we asking for it or what?
Promote this thread!
StaggerLee
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#2 Posted on 30.4.04 0704.30
Reposted on: 30.4.11 0707.53
Seems no worse than what their own administration was doing to them.

But, we should be above that sorta thing.
Grimis
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#3 Posted on 30.4.04 0724.22
Reposted on: 30.4.11 0724.30
Wea re above this sort of thing. There are screwups in all armies...

We'll throw the book at them.
ThreepMe
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#4 Posted on 30.4.04 0818.40
Reposted on: 30.4.11 0819.31
This is NOT indicative of our service men and women.

But damn if it's not bad PR. They should make the sentencing of those "bad seeds" public enough to let everyone (mostly the Arab world) that we dealt with them.
Barbwire Mike
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#5 Posted on 30.4.04 0824.14
Reposted on: 30.4.11 0826.14
We have to PROVE this isn't indicative of us. Stuff like this makes us look like the world's biggest hypocrites every time we use a buzzword like "freedom" or "liberate".

There can be no "I was just following orders" justification here. Those soldiers are criminals and need to be punished as such.
DrDirt
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#6 Posted on 30.4.04 0839.51
Reposted on: 30.4.11 0840.02
This sticks out because it isn't indicative of our armed forces. But who would be dumb enough to take photos?
StaggerLee
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#7 Posted on 30.4.04 0856.17
Reposted on: 30.4.11 0856.27
Thats called "The R Kelly Syndrome"

Doing something blatanly stupid, and documenting it in video or photos.

Court Martial these boneheads, and the General that allowed it to happen, and put them in Leavenworth.
Barbwire Mike
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#8 Posted on 30.4.04 0906.14
Reposted on: 30.4.11 0907.23
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    Thats called "The R Kelly Syndrome"

    Doing something blatanly stupid, and documenting it in video or photos.

Stagger's right, to the point that when cops make a drug bust one of the first things they look for is a digital camera. You'd think it was a joke, but the odds are pretty good they'll find undeleted pictures of illegal activity on it.
Maniac
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#9 Posted on 30.4.04 0907.19
Reposted on: 30.4.11 0907.40
Joe E. Nitro
Here's another reason for the Arab world to strap bombs to themselves and declare jihad Click Here (news.bbc.co.uk)

Are we asking for it or what?

The Arab community should realize that these things however regrettable happen and that prisoners may have been abused but they are not dead. The people responsible will be dealt with and the press is still allowed to write stories and be stationed in Iraq.

If this were done by Saddam's men, it would serve as a warning to law breakers. There would only be one side to the story, probably no witnesses.

Do really think the standards in Iraq prisons has declined since America stepped over that boarder?
JoshMann
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#10 Posted on 30.4.04 0951.25
Reposted on: 30.4.11 0952.16
    Originally posted by Maniac
    Do really think the standards in Iraq prisons has declined since America stepped over that boarder?


That's not the point...the point is that when the U.S. holds themself to a higher standard and fall well short of it as in this case, even if it's just a few out-there memebers of the military, it reflects badly on all of them. Bad apples and whatnot.
Jonny_English
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#11 Posted on 30.4.04 1033.22
Reposted on: 30.4.11 1033.52
    Originally posted by Maniac
    Joe E. Nitro
    Here's another reason for the Arab world to strap bombs to themselves and declare jihad Click Here (news.bbc.co.uk)

    Are we asking for it or what?

    The Arab community should realize that these things however regrettable happen and that prisoners may have been abused but they are not dead. The people responsible will be dealt with and the press is still allowed to write stories and be stationed in Iraq.

    If this were done by Saddam's men, it would serve as a warning to law breakers. There would only be one side to the story, probably no witnesses.

    Do really think the standards in Iraq prisons has declined since America stepped over that boarder?


No, I just think that America had no business stepping over the Iraqi border in the first place. No matter how you spin it, we are an occupying force of a foreign nation. The US and its allies took unilateral action, and have therefore lost the right to decry other states for doing the same. This latest incident of abuse (don't forget hundreds of men and women are being held against their will with no opportunity to clear their name [or even attempt to] at Guantanamo) just serves as another rallying call for fundamentalists. Whilst I appreciate that there are bad apples in every barrel, you would hope that the people allegedly there to protect freedom and liberty would behave in a manner commensurate with the lofty ideals of Bush the Selected.
DrDirt
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#12 Posted on 30.4.04 1151.53
Reposted on: 30.4.11 1152.06
    Originally posted by Maniac
    Joe E. Nitro
    Here's another reason for the Arab world to strap bombs to themselves and declare jihad Click Here (news.bbc.co.uk)

    Are we asking for it or what?

    The Arab community should realize that these things however regrettable happen and that prisoners may have been abused but they are not dead. The people responsible will be dealt with and the press is still allowed to write stories and be stationed in Iraq.

    If this were done by Saddam's men, it would serve as a warning to law breakers. There would only be one side to the story, probably no witnesses.

    Do really think the standards in Iraq prisons has declined since America stepped over that boarder?


They wont get it. Do you really think they understand a free press and the checks and balances of a free society. We keep expecting people who have never known freedom to "get it." If we are ever to prevail. and I have fears we won't for a long time, this stuff just can't happen. And the "they aren't dead" argument is weak in a world of suicide bombers, martyrs, and jihads.
A Fan
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#13 Posted on 30.4.04 1346.19
Reposted on: 30.4.11 1346.32
Oh boy. This Iraqi thing keeps getting worse and worse for us everyday. That June 30th deadline cannot come any sooner. This is another dent for the Bush Administration espically since they have been holding up those USA Today/CNN polls which say the Iraqis feel they are better off with us in charge. Well, after this press release from the BBC, I'm sure the image will change again.

It does seem ironic that the Administration has been attacking Al Jeezer for posting anti-American stories and remakes. All the while the BBC, an allied country's news organization, has posted a very damaging story. Of course, I'm sure BBC will be thrown in the anti-American press rabble along with Al Jeezer or anyone else that doesn't have an American flag all over their news desk at the same time being owned by an Australlian billionare who made his cash by selling gossip stories. Yep, those are the guys you want controlling the press.
Maniac
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#14 Posted on 30.4.04 1425.44
Reposted on: 30.4.11 1426.16
Blanket Jackson

Originally posted by Maniac Do you really think the standards in Iraq prisons has declined since America stepped over that boarder?

That's not the point...the point is that when the U.S. holds themself to a higher standard and fall well short of it as in this case, even if it's just a few out-there memebers of the military, it reflects badly on all of them. Bad apples and whatnot.

That is my point. With American in charge as guards, with this it's worst known case. It is still better than the previous prison guards at there best. That my freind is higher standards.


DrDirt
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#15 Posted on 30.4.04 1432.42
Reposted on: 30.4.11 1433.16
    Originally posted by Maniac
    Blanket Jackson

    Originally posted by Maniac Do you really think the standards in Iraq prisons has declined since America stepped over that boarder?

    That's not the point...the point is that when the U.S. holds themself to a higher standard and fall well short of it as in this case, even if it's just a few out-there memebers of the military, it reflects badly on all of them. Bad apples and whatnot.

    That is my point. With American in charge as guards, with this it's worst known case. It is still better than the previous prison guards at there best. That my freind is higher standards.





I understand but that argument can't fly. We hold ourselves up as paragons of freedom and their savior. Brutality is brutality. Nothing like this is acceptable if we are to win the battle of the mind which is the real battle. Just cause they didn't kill them is weak. It's not like this occurred during the heat of a battle.
JayJayDean
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#16 Posted on 30.4.04 1509.15
Reposted on: 30.4.11 1509.25
    Originally posted by DrDirt
    I understand but that argument can't fly. We hold ourselves up as paragons of freedom and their savior. Brutality is brutality. Nothing like this is acceptable if we are to win the battle of the mind which is the real battle. Just cause they didn't kill them is weak. It's not like this occurred during the heat of a battle.


It seems to me not too much of a stretch to compare this story to the really bad hazing stories that have come out over the last couple of years. Hazing, like prisons, is bad enough, but when it gets out of control (due to the mob mentality that is often cited) AND people hear about it then OMG LOOK WHAT THESE ASSHOLES ARE DOING THEY MUST BE STOPPED AND THEY ARE EVIL AND WHAT KIND OF PARENTS RAISE SUCH SLIMEBALLS AND HOW COULD THEY NOT HAVE KNOWN WHAT WAS HAPPENING!!!!!!!

If one group of American soldiers were overzealous (at best [or "least worst"]) or cruel torturers (at worst) that doesn't mean it's happening everywhere over there. Heck, it doesn't mean it's happening ANYWHERE else over there. The soldiers and their superiors should (and presumably will) be dealt with appropriately because they are assholes who acted as though there would be no consequences to their actions.
oldschoolhero
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#17 Posted on 30.4.04 1516.16
Reposted on: 30.4.11 1516.16
"If one group of American soldiers were overzealous (at best [or "least worst"])"

I think you can pretty much scratch that particular suggestion. Standing a naked, hooded man on a bucket and attaching a wire which they falsely claimed was electrocuted to his genitals is not being overzealous in their jobs. It's sadism, pure and simple, and no matter how small the minority of offenders, it's a worrying indictment of the standards of some of the soldiers out there as ambassadors of the Western tenets of freedom. Remember also that there were a further seventeen officers under investigation from a coupla months ago for similar, albeit less-publicised offences.
Joe E. Nitro
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#18 Posted on 30.4.04 1636.35
Reposted on: 30.4.11 1636.52
    Originally posted by JayJayDean
      Originally posted by DrDirt
      I understand but that argument can't fly. We hold ourselves up as paragons of freedom and their savior. Brutality is brutality. Nothing like this is acceptable if we are to win the battle of the mind which is the real battle. Just cause they didn't kill them is weak. It's not like this occurred during the heat of a battle.


    It seems to me not too much of a stretch to compare this story to the really bad hazing stories that have come out over the last couple of years. Hazing, like prisons, is bad enough, but when it gets out of control (due to the mob mentality that is often cited) AND people hear about it then OMG LOOK WHAT THESE ASSHOLES ARE DOING THEY MUST BE STOPPED AND THEY ARE EVIL AND WHAT KIND OF PARENTS RAISE SUCH SLIMEBALLS AND HOW COULD THEY NOT HAVE KNOWN WHAT WAS HAPPENING!!!!!!!

    If one group of American soldiers were overzealous (at best [or "least worst"]) or cruel torturers (at worst) that doesn't mean it's happening everywhere over there. Heck, it doesn't mean it's happening ANYWHERE else over there. The soldiers and their superiors should (and presumably will) be dealt with appropriately because they are assholes who acted as though there would be no consequences to their actions.


The problem lies in the fact that this is the type of propaganda that the extremists need to recruit the young to fight their fight. Whether it was a handful of morons or the whole US Military and all of us over here harasing these prisoners doesn't matter . As far as they care it is happening everywhere. It's enough to really piss off an already pissed off young boy who already hates America. It fuels the fire.

fuelinjected
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#19 Posted on 30.4.04 1644.54
Reposted on: 30.4.11 1645.14
Not to be overly cynical but I'm not overly surprised considering there's a good chunk of young men who joined the military because they were just looking for a steady income.

It all may seem very cruel and sadistic, which it is, but you're asking these people to go over there and kill other people. Most of them have to dehumanize the enemy. It's a little hard to ask all of them to see the bigger picture from combat.

That's supposed to be the job of their superiors. They're the ones who are supposed to keep these guys in line.
Maniac
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#20 Posted on 1.5.04 0048.40
Reposted on: 1.5.11 0048.41
    Originally posted by oldschoolhero
    "If one group of American soldiers were overzealous (at best [or "least worst"])"

    I think you can pretty much scratch that particular suggestion. Standing a naked, hooded man on a bucket and attaching a wire which they falsely claimed was electrocuted to his genitals is not being overzealous in their jobs. It's sadism, pure and simple, and no matter how small the minority of offenders, it's a worrying indictment of the standards of some of the soldiers out there as ambassadors of the Western tenets of freedom. Remember also that there were a further seventeen officers under investigation from a coupla months ago for similar, albeit less-publicised offences.


You all ready said that these kids, who? They have no understanding of your perception of an American GI.

This is a problem!
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