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30.7.07 0812
The 7 - Current Events & Politics - Spain officially goes France on us
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Grimis
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#21 Posted on 20.4.04 0907.20
Reposted on: 20.4.11 0908.04
    Originally posted by The Amazing Salami
    That's a really simple and shallow way to look at all this. I'm afraid there are a few more factors in play.....(gasp) maybe even some you aren't aware of.
It's amazing how that I'm stupid and uninformed just because I disagree with you.

It's also amazing how I never said "you terrorist appeasers are fucking morons" either.

But that's the way things go I guess....
The Amazing Salami
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#22 Posted on 20.4.04 0924.41
Reposted on: 20.4.11 0927.50
    Originally posted by Grimis
      Originally posted by The Amazing Salami
      That's a really simple and shallow way to look at all this. I'm afraid there are a few more factors in play.....(gasp) maybe even some you aren't aware of.
    It's amazing how that I'm stupid and uninformed just because I disagree with you.


I don't disagree with you.
Gavintzu
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#23 Posted on 20.4.04 0941.11
Reposted on: 20.4.11 0945.21
Hey Grimis ... one of the things that really inflamed Osama bin Laden and the other Islamic fundamentalists in the '90s was the presence of US troops in Saudi Arabia. Infidels in the land of Mecca and Medina and such.

Two years after 9/11, the US pulled out of the kingdom. Just for consistency's sake, how about a post blasting the Bush Administration for "waving the white flag" and giving in to the terrorists?


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#24 Posted on 20.4.04 1021.16
Reposted on: 20.4.11 1021.31
I'm sorry, but this is true democracy in action, you know the one we are trying to build in Iraqi. The people wanted their troops out of Iraqi even after the bombings. I figured the bombings would cry for revenge, yet the people choose to elect a government that do what the people wanted. When, elected the government did what the people asked. Its not like one President said, you know this is getting hairy, we need to get out. It was almost the entire country in one voice saying, we want out.

I agree that once you make a pledge of support, you should stick by that word or don't jump in the fight. However, with democracies, a country's word is only as good as that present government is willing to give. Once, elections get involved and a government's word is thrown out the widnow. I don't blame Spain for wanting to leave since even after the June 30th deadline, the troops are staying which kinda breaks the U.S. word about staying there only long enough to set-up shop.

Spain was am ok ally, its not letting England is leaving or the huge corporations who sent down mercenaries to help contain the violence. It does hurt the coalition as Honduras will be leaving as well, but it won't destroy it. The U.S. will stay this course regardless of Bush or Kerry is located, The U.S. will get in the way as usual. Also, how important is NATO anymore? The answer is none.
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#25 Posted on 20.4.04 1102.38
Reposted on: 20.4.11 1102.57
    Originally posted by Grimis
      Originally posted by DrDirt
      The main item is that we must stop the knee-jerk hatred towards countries who don't follow our lead like mind-numbed robots.
    This isn't knee-jerk hatred towards anybody. Spain is an ally and a member of NATO. But the Spanish government had the choice between standing up to terrorism or waving the white flag. And the Zapatero government waved the white flag and gave them a free pass.

    The terrorists wanted a change in goverment and to get Spain out of Iraq. The terrorists won.


It's just not that simple. The beauty of being a terrorist is in situations like this you can't lose. No matter how Spain responded, the crap would hit the fan. Stay and there are more attacks. Leave and the terrorists win and likely still attack. IMO they are making a mistake but it is their mistake to make. Where I think the terrorists are stupid is that 70% wanted out of Iraq anyway.

Until we come to the realization that these are people who are so driven by hatred that reason doesn't work, we can't succeed.
oldschoolhero
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#26 Posted on 20.4.04 1208.28
Reposted on: 20.4.11 1209.44
No, you didn't call "terrorist appeasers" fucking morons, but you may as well have with the wording of your posts. You've made your disdain of France clear enough here in the past, and you directly compared the two countries. Also, "dropped the ball", isn't exactly "well, I think they're making a mistake but it's their call to make". Details, Grim, details.
vsp
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#27 Posted on 20.4.04 1354.24
Reposted on: 20.4.11 1357.06
    Originally posted by Grimis
    But the Spanish government had the choice between standing up to terrorism or waving the white flag.


The Spanish are still standing up to terrorism. The terrorists just happen to be somewhere other than Iraq.
Joe E. Nitro
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#28 Posted on 21.4.04 1014.53
Reposted on: 21.4.11 1016.42
I'm sure the US and the rest of the Coalition would love to do what Spain is doing if they could find a way to do it and save face at the same time.
DrDirt
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#29 Posted on 21.4.04 1030.24
Reposted on: 21.4.11 1030.36
    Originally posted by Joe E. Nitro
    I'm sure the US and the rest of the Coalition would love to do what Spain is doing if they could find a way to do it and save face at the same time.


I'm not so sure. I think people would prefer not to be there, however, IMO they realize what is at stake. We are there now and whether you agree with what we did or not, we are there for the long haul. The consequences of cutting and running dwarf the problems we have now.
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#30 Posted on 21.4.04 1035.49
Reposted on: 21.4.11 1036.22
this is not a coalition of the willing, this is a coalition of countries that would like to keep the US as an economic ally. Spain didnt drop the ball, they are still fighting terrorism, just not in iraq.
vsp
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#31 Posted on 21.4.04 1144.09
Reposted on: 21.4.11 1145.43
    Originally posted by DrDirt
      Originally posted by Joe E. Nitro
      I'm sure the US and the rest of the Coalition would love to do what Spain is doing if they could find a way to do it and save face at the same time.


    I'm not so sure. I think people would prefer not to be there, however, IMO they realize what is at stake. We are there now and whether you agree with what we did or not, we are there for the long haul. The consequences of cutting and running dwarf the problems we have now.


The US is there for the long haul. Other countries donated soldiers to the effort, but this was clearly a US-run, US-driven effort from day one.

I can't blame other contributing notions for looking at the US's war effort, noting that it was based on a misguided notion (WMDs), and subsequently deciding to let the US clean up its own mess.

DrDirt
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#32 Posted on 21.4.04 1256.19
Reposted on: 21.4.11 1257.01
    Originally posted by vsp
      Originally posted by DrDirt
        Originally posted by Joe E. Nitro
        I'm sure the US and the rest of the Coalition would love to do what Spain is doing if they could find a way to do it and save face at the same time.


      I'm not so sure. I think people would prefer not to be there, however, IMO they realize what is at stake. We are there now and whether you agree with what we did or not, we are there for the long haul. The consequences of cutting and running dwarf the problems we have now.


    The US is there for the long haul. Other countries donated soldiers to the effort, but this was clearly a US-run, US-driven effort from day one.

    I can't blame other contributing notions for looking at the US's war effort, noting that it was based on a misguided notion (WMDs), and subsequently deciding to let the US clean up its own mess.




I was speaking of us and Britain. I don't blame other countries for being leary of this. It is not as simple as they don't want to help us clean up our mess. From WWII onward we have been the primary policeman of the free world. They are used to us cleaning up messes period.
AWArulz
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#33 Posted on 21.4.04 1308.47
Reposted on: 21.4.11 1311.50
    Originally posted by avonhun
    this is not a coalition of the willing, this is a coalition of countries that would like to keep the US as an economic ally. Spain didnt drop the ball, they are still fighting terrorism, just not in iraq.


Yeah, because if you didn't play with us in Iraq we quit being your economic ally. That's your contention?

Our top ranking trade partners, currently
After the country name, it is:
Exports, Imports, Total trade, Rank and % of trade
Canada 27.7 38.0 65.7 1 19.8%
Mexico 16.3 22.8 39.1 2 11.8%
China 5.6 25.4 31.0 3 9.4%
Japan 8.1 19.4 27.5 4 8.3%
Federal Republic of Germany 4.8 11.1 15.9 5 4.8%
United Kingdom 5.7 6.7 12.4 6 3.8%
Korea, South 4.1 6.4 10.5 7 3.2%
Taiwan 3.1 4.9 8.1 8 2.4%
France 3.1 4.5 7.6 9 2.3%
Malaysia 1.8 4.0 5.8 10 1.8%
Italy 1.6 4.1 5.7 11 1.7%
Ireland 1.4 4.1 5.5 12 1.7%
Netherlands 3.7 1.8 5.5 13 1.7%
Brazil 2.4 2.6 5.0 14 1.5%
Singapore 2.6 2.3 4.9 15 1.5%

at the end of 1999, it was:
CANADA 30.81 362.24
MEXICO 18.04 196.57
JAPAN 17.26 188.89
CHINA 7.76 94.90
FEDERAL REPUBLIC OF GERMANY 7.50 81.88
UNITED KINGDOM 6.55 77.53
KOREA, REPUBLIC OF 5.46 54.22
TAIWAN 5.27 54.32
FRANCE 4.26 44.75
SINGAPORE 3.09 34.43

Not much change was there? If we're so "you're not our buddy" anymore, how come Deutchland and France are still such strong trading partners?

Care to revise your assertion?




(edited by AWArulz on 21.4.04 1409)
adamkz
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#34 Posted on 21.4.04 1527.15
Reposted on: 21.4.11 1529.01
    Originally posted by MoeGates
    All of you need to read the actual Spanish Press and not whatever the hell you're reading now. www.elpais.es Sorry, don't know an English version, but at least read the Brit papers or something.

    The short version is that Aznar's reaction to the bombing was what got him booted - mostly trying to immediately pin it on ETA figuring that was what would benefit him more politically in the upcoming elections. The other guy had said all along he'd pull troops from Iraq, and not keeping a campaign promise 72% of the Nation supports isn't a great recipe for political success in any country.

    Seeing other countries' internal politics solely through the lens of America's issues is just ignorant.


Moe got it right on this one, guys. I was in Spain the week of the elections and the thing that tipped the balance away from Anzar was the immediate pinning of the blame on ETA, even though people inside of Spain immediately thought this was suspect. It looked like Al-Qaeda, but politically it would help Anzar more if he could say it was ETA rather than Al-Qaeda. Once it came out that it really was AQ and not ETA, enough voters felt it was the last time that they would tolerate Anzar not being straight with them, and voted him out.

Instead of reporting this, which was all over Spanish media and the European news and press, we get the Republican Echo Chamber version of events which gets allows Bush to say that if a country votes out its leader (in UK or US, primarily), it's a victory for Al-Qeada and terrorists. I'm sure people didn't miss Condi Rice making this point clear the other day when she said that she was "warning" us that the US might get hit with a terror attack before our elections to get the same result. It's a clever political smear -- A vote against Bush is a Vote for Terrorists winning, and Kerry and Democrats equal the Socialists in Spain.
avonhun
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#35 Posted on 22.4.04 1308.29
Reposted on: 22.4.11 1312.21
    Originally posted by AWArulz
      Originally posted by avonhun
      this is not a coalition of the willing, this is a coalition of countries that would like to keep the US as an economic ally. Spain didnt drop the ball, they are still fighting terrorism, just not in iraq.


    Yeah, because if you didn't play with us in Iraq we quit being your economic ally. That's your contention?

    Our top ranking trade partners, currently
    After the country name, it is:
    Exports, Imports, Total trade, Rank and % of trade
    Canada 27.7 38.0 65.7 1 19.8%
    Mexico 16.3 22.8 39.1 2 11.8%
    China 5.6 25.4 31.0 3 9.4%
    Japan 8.1 19.4 27.5 4 8.3%
    Federal Republic of Germany 4.8 11.1 15.9 5 4.8%
    United Kingdom 5.7 6.7 12.4 6 3.8%
    Korea, South 4.1 6.4 10.5 7 3.2%
    Taiwan 3.1 4.9 8.1 8 2.4%
    France 3.1 4.5 7.6 9 2.3%
    Malaysia 1.8 4.0 5.8 10 1.8%
    Italy 1.6 4.1 5.7 11 1.7%
    Ireland 1.4 4.1 5.5 12 1.7%
    Netherlands 3.7 1.8 5.5 13 1.7%
    Brazil 2.4 2.6 5.0 14 1.5%
    Singapore 2.6 2.3 4.9 15 1.5%

    at the end of 1999, it was:
    CANADA 30.81 362.24
    MEXICO 18.04 196.57
    JAPAN 17.26 188.89
    CHINA 7.76 94.90
    FEDERAL REPUBLIC OF GERMANY 7.50 81.88
    UNITED KINGDOM 6.55 77.53
    KOREA, REPUBLIC OF 5.46 54.22
    TAIWAN 5.27 54.32
    FRANCE 4.26 44.75
    SINGAPORE 3.09 34.43

    Not much change was there? If we're so "you're not our buddy" anymore, how come Deutchland and France are still such strong trading partners?

    Care to revise your assertion?




    (edited by AWArulz on 21.4.04 1409)


no i wouldnt.

with an economy that accounts for a quarter of economic activity on earth, the US has ample economic levers to pressure poorer countries. These fall into several catergies, the most important being the realms of trade and investment. The US is negotiating new free trade agreements with several nations, failure to support the US could jeopardize these negotiations. The US has been involved in serious tariff negotiations with several nations, inclusding mexico, and the US could threaten to withdraw concessions from countries opposing the was. Finally, the US has a long history of using trade sanctions against nations that have invoked its ire. In addition to trade, AID is a powerful lever. Although US economic and development aid has been falling in recent years, it remains very important to the poorest nations. The US has long used its aid program as a political instrument to reward allies and punish countries that stray from the path.

http://www.ips-dc.org/COERCED.pdf

particularly important is the comment about mexico, and about foreign aid to poor countries which is not listed in your stats. countries like uganda, soloman islands, estonia, latvia, lithuania, uzbekistan, georgia, marshall islands, micronesia, palau, tonga, eritea, ethiopia, rwanda, and angola all risk losing the foreign aid we give them if they do not comply with US wishes. and if you did notice france lost almost half of its trade with us.
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