The W
Views: 100932114
Main | FAQ | Search: Y! / G | Color chart | Log in for more!
28.11.07 0239
The 7 - Current Events & Politics - Spain officially goes France on us
This thread has 1 referral leading to it
Register and log in to post!
Pages: 1 2 Next(1001 newer) Next thread | Previous thread
User
Post (35 total)
Grimis
Scrapple
Level: 124

Posts: 3032/4700
EXP: 21669552
For next: 167110

Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1305 days
Last activity: 1102 days
#1 Posted on 19.4.04 0614.09
Reposted on: 19.4.11 0629.03
This took less time than most probably expected.

* * * * * *

Spanish troops are ordered out of Iraq
Soldiers are to leave 'as soon as possible'; U.S. fears efforts will suffer
Associated Press
Originally published April 19, 2004

MADRID, Spain -- Spain's prime minister on Sunday ordered Spanish troops pulled out of Iraq as soon as possible, fulfilling a campaign pledge to a nation recovering from terrorist bombings that al-Qaida militants said were reprisal for Spain's support of the war.

Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero issued the abrupt recall just hours after his government was sworn in, saying there was no sign the United States would meet his demand for United Nations control of the postwar occupation -- his ultimatum for keeping troops there.

Zapatero's Socialist party won the March 14 general election amid allegations that outgoing Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar, by backing the war in Iraq, had provoked commuter-train terrorist bombings that killed 191 people three days before the vote.

Though Zapatero had promised to remove Spanish troops, his immediate action was a bombshell, and a setback for the United States as Spain's new foreign minister prepared to travel to Washington to discuss the dispute.

The Bush administration has been eager to maintain an international veneer on the increasingly besieged coalition force in Iraq, which is dominated by its 130,000 American troops.

In a five-minute address at the Moncloa Palace, Zapatero said he had ordered Defense Minister Jose Bono to "do what is necessary for the Spanish troops stationed in Iraq to return home in the shortest time possible."

He cited his campaign pledge to bring the 1,300 troops in Iraq home by June 30, when their mandate expires, if the United Nations failed to take political and military control.

"With the information we have, and which we have gathered over the past few weeks, it is not foreseeable that the United Nations will adopt a resolution" that satisfies Spain's terms by its deadline, Zapatero said.

The latest polls show 72 percent of Spaniards want the troops withdrawn.

The government did not say when it would start removing its forces, but officials in Cairo said Egyptian Foreign Minister Ahmed Maher was told by his Spanish counterpart, Miguel Angel Moratinos, that Spain would pull out of Iraq in 15 days. The officials spoke on condition of anonymity.

Egypt's foreign ministry later backtracked from that in a statement, however, saying the Spanish leader said "the date will be announced in Iraq and has not yet been fixed."

In Washington, U.S. officials said Zapatero's announcement was not a surprise.

"We knew from the recent Spanish election that it was the new prime minister's intention to withdraw Spanish troops from the coalition in Iraq," said a White House spokesman, Ken Lisaius. "We will work with our coalition partners in Iraq and the Spanish government and expect they will implement their decision in a coordinated, responsible and orderly manner."

Mariano Rajoy, who ran against Zapatero in the election after Aznar decided not to seek another term, said the decision made Spain "much more vulnerable and weak in the face of terrorism in the face of terrorism."

Zapatero has "thrown in the towel" rather than try to exhaust all possibilities of getting a U.N. resolution to meet his demands, Rajoy said.

But many other politicians praised Zapatero, including Jose Antonio Labordeta, a congressman from a small party based in Aragon in the northeast.

"What Zapatero did is keep his word, which is rare in this country. For the first time, we have come across a politician who keeps his word," Labordeta told the news agency Efe.

Bono, the defense secretary, is reported to have met secretly in Washington with Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld on April 5.

Moratinos, the foreign secretary, said he will travel Tuesday to Washington to discuss Spain's plans with Secretary of State Colin Powell and National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice.

Before Sunday's announcement, the newspaper El Pais said Moratinos would offer nonmilitary cooperation, such as training Iraqi police, if Zapatero made good on his vow. Now, it appears the visit was designed from the outset to announce the withdrawal decision, not to talk about how to keep Spanish troops in place.

In his announcement, Zapatero indicated that nothing argued for him to reverse the course of his campaign pledge.

"These circumstances have led me to take the decision to order the return of our troops with the maximum safety and thus in the shortest time possible," Zapatero said.

"More than anything, this decision reflects my desire to keep the promise I made to the Spanish people more than a year ago," he said.

He said Bono would give details in coming days of the process of bringing the soldiers home, and that he himself had convened an urgent meeting of Parliament to discuss his decision.

Zapatero said Spain's government would continue to support Iraq's stability, democratization, territorial integrity and reconstruction. Spain will also support any U.N. or European Union effort to help Iraqis' recover sovereignty and hold free, democratic elections, he said.

Spanish troops have been stationed in south-central Iraq with responsibility for Diwaniya and the flashpoint Shiite holy city of Najaf. Eleven of the Spaniards have died since August, including seven intelligence agents in a highway ambush in November.

In a videotape found the night before the election, an Arabic-speaking man claiming to speak for al-Qaida said the bombings were punishment for Aznar's support of the war. Before then, Aznar's party had been expected to easily win.

Zapatero's warning of a possible Spanish withdrawal had prompted some U.S. lawmakers to charge such a move would appear to be appeasing terrorists. Zapatero rejected this, saying his idea of removing them came long before the March 11 bombing.

Aznar, a close Bush ally who deployed the troops, said Sunday that withdrawing them would only lead to more violence and chaos in Iraq.

"That will not be good for Spain, not a good day for the coalition, and a very good day for those who don't want stability and democracy in Iraq," Aznar said on "Fox News Sunday."
Promote this thread!
oldschoolhero
Knackwurst
Level: 104

Posts: 1698/3059
EXP: 11614718
For next: 247447

Since: 2.1.02
From: nWo Country

Since last post: 2023 days
Last activity: 1957 days
#2 Posted on 19.4.04 0652.42
Reposted on: 19.4.11 0654.05
Wow, those cowards.

Sorry, just thought I'd get the totally insensitive reaction in before anybody who actually MEANS it does. How is it that the US and Britain are given a license to do what they want in the wake of national tragedy, but other countries are pilloried for choosing their own way?
Dahak
Frankfurter
Level: 57

Posts: 410/772
EXP: 1452057
For next: 33880

Since: 12.5.02
From: Junction City OR.

Since last post: 2062 days
Last activity: 1715 days
#3 Posted on 19.4.04 0752.40
Reposted on: 19.4.11 0759.06
Does anyone think that terrorists will attack Spain less now? Are Islamic extremists content with Spain pulling out of Iraq?
The answer to both is NO. OBL has said that he wants Spain back. Apparently that 500 years that they controlled half of Spain means that Islam has a claim to the whole country. Never mind that was 500 years ago. I guess that if one Moor was ever on that land it's Islamic territory forever.
Does your average Islamic terrorist really care that much about national boundries? No Spain is a Christian country. Even worse Spain is a Catholic country.
Spain has showed that it will back down if attacked so what will Spain do if pushed in the future? Send troops? That would just cause even more attacks.
If Spain had pulled out before things would be different. Or if they had never sent troops. But they backed down and everyone knows it.
vsp
Andouille
Level: 87

Posts: 1726/2042
EXP: 6333869
For next: 58930

Since: 3.1.02
From: Philly

Since last post: 3069 days
Last activity: 283 days
#4 Posted on 19.4.04 1116.01
Reposted on: 19.4.11 1138.00
    Originally posted by Grimis
    The latest polls show 72 percent of Spaniards want the troops withdrawn.


Seems like Zapatero's giving the people what they want, since a vast majority of Spain opposed the Iraq war _before_ the recent attacks and elections.

There's a difference between "appeasing terrorists" and disapproving of/not participating in the US's methods of battling terrorism. Despite Dubya's rhetoric, "with us" and "with the terrorists" are not the only two options.

devineman
Chipolata
Level: 25

Posts: 34/123
EXP: 85601
For next: 4020

Since: 16.2.04
From: UK

Since last post: 946 days
Last activity: 545 days
#5 Posted on 19.4.04 1129.41
Reposted on: 19.4.11 1141.42
So Spain pulls out troops because of the Madrid bombing and public outcry and you say they are 'doing a France'.

Ive never visited the Politics forum before (simple reason being errr.... well... ive never spotted it!) but am a regular on politics.org. I hope this isnt the usual level of intelligence and political know how here, anyway..

Spain should now really be left alone for a while as far as terrorist attacks go (non-ETA), simple reason being they have just being hit and they never seem to hit the same place twice in a row. To be honest i disagree with Spain pulling out in theory because it creates an attitude of submitting to the terrorists but it never works like that in reality unfortunatley. I can understand there reasons and have no bad feelings or disrespect towards them.
Grimis
Scrapple
Level: 124

Posts: 3035/4700
EXP: 21669552
For next: 167110

Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1305 days
Last activity: 1102 days
#6 Posted on 19.4.04 1253.13
Reposted on: 19.4.11 1255.42
    Originally posted by devineman
    So Spain pulls out troops because of the Madrid bombing and public outcry and you say they are 'doing a France'.
Appeasement is the terrain of the French, yes.

    Originally posted by devineman
    I hope this isnt the usual level of intelligence and political know how here, anyway..
Hint: You're not off to a good start.

    Originally posted by devineman
    Spain should now really be left alone for a while as far as terrorist attacks go (non-ETA), simple reason being they have just being hit and they never seem to hit the same place twice in a row.
Which would be a reason to hit them twice in a row. Besides, I'm not worried about another terrorist attack on Spanish soil. I'm worried for Poland, Germany, France, England, Italy, etc. because now that the terrorists have gotten Spain to roll over and play dead they may expect other nations to do so.

    Originally posted by devineman
    I can understand there reasons and have no bad feelings or disrespect towards them.
Thier reasons are that they are a Socialist government and that, yes, the people want it. But the only reason that Zapatero got elected was because the Spanish people dropped the ball and elected them when Anzar and the Popular Party was up going into the bombing.
spf
Scrapple
Level: 133

Posts: 2696/5404
EXP: 27270207
For next: 582533

Since: 2.1.02
From: The Las Vegas of Canada

Since last post: 25 days
Last activity: 1 day
AIM:  
#7 Posted on 19.4.04 1303.35
Reposted on: 19.4.11 1305.04
    Originally posted by Grimis
    But the only reason that Zapatero got elected was because the Spanish people dropped the ball and elected them when Anzar and the Popular Party was up going into the bombing.

I can only imagine what your reaction would be to anyone from another country who said the U.S. dropped the ball by voting in Bush Jr or says that if we reelect him. And I love the notion that by leaving Iraq, a place that likely has less Al Qaeda members actively working in it than any country in the Middle East and possibly the entire first world (something about 150,000 or so U.S. troops wandering around the country is something I have to think is a likely problem for logistics) is somehow "rolling over and playing dead" to terrorism. Maybe someone figured that money and lives could be better spent shoring up internal security and not being involved in a war that seems at this point to have no purpose but to continually piss off an entire region full of people and cause too many people to come home in body bags.
oldschoolhero
Knackwurst
Level: 104

Posts: 1700/3059
EXP: 11614718
For next: 247447

Since: 2.1.02
From: nWo Country

Since last post: 2023 days
Last activity: 1957 days
#8 Posted on 19.4.04 1304.51
Reposted on: 19.4.11 1306.57
Ya know, when an ENTIRE WESTERN NATION disagrees with you, especially one that used to be a staunch ally, it gets harder and harder for you to play the Wounded Indignance Card without coming off like a total jackass.

Here's a li'l theory for ya, slick: Maybe, just maybe, the Spanish people have come to the realisation that, despite all of Bush's BS rhetoric, the war on Iraq, the one that they've withdrawn from doncha know, has done NOTHING to stop atrocities like the Madrid bombings from happening. What is one of the first major international miliatry operations following an assault by a non-nation-specific force? Why, launching a war on one small nation, of course! The Spanish people were happy to stand by, and dedicate their troops' lives to the cause of the Iraq war under the belief that it was going to help prevent tragedies like the one that befell them from happening. And hey, newsflash: It DIDN'T. So why don't you back the fuck up from lambasting a grieving country for withdrawing their resources from a war that did nothing to stop two hundred of their citizens being slaughtered in their own captital.

But hey, this is is just another rancid, bullheaded example of "the US way or the highway", which seems de rigeur for the die-hard Bush supporters recently.
fuelinjected
Banger
Level: 97

Posts: 2107/2679
EXP: 9229292
For next: 88066

Since: 12.10.02
From: Canada

Since last post: 3298 days
Last activity: 3298 days
#9 Posted on 19.4.04 1309.25
Reposted on: 19.4.11 1314.42
How can you say the Spanish people dropped the ball?

They followed Anzar and got bombed so they decided to go a different direction. That's the beauty of free elections, isn't it? They made the choice to go with a new government, who seems to be actually acting on behalf of the people instead of some (often warped) vision of what's best for those people.

If Spain gets bombed again by Al-Qaeda, then yes, they have themselves to blame and you can say they dropped the ball. Until then, you can't.
vsp
Andouille
Level: 87

Posts: 1727/2042
EXP: 6333869
For next: 58930

Since: 3.1.02
From: Philly

Since last post: 3069 days
Last activity: 283 days
#10 Posted on 19.4.04 1529.41
Reposted on: 19.4.11 1529.46
    Originally posted by fuelinjected
    How can you say the Spanish people dropped the ball?

    They followed Anzar and got bombed so they decided to go a different direction.


Or to be even more precise, they said "do X," Anzar did Y, they got bombed, and they said "You know what? The other guy's more likely to do X than Anzar is" and tossed Anzar.
Nag
Landjager
Level: 61

Posts: 619/904
EXP: 1790571
For next: 86036

Since: 10.1.03
From: Enter your city here

Since last post: 2213 days
Last activity: 268 days
Y!:
#11 Posted on 19.4.04 1631.30
Reposted on: 19.4.11 1632.57
"They made the choice to go with a new government, who seems to be actually acting on behalf of the people instead of some (often warped) vision of what's best for those people."

Wasn't the last Red Flag government in place in Spain voted out due to corruption? Or, were all those bribes placed in the dole?

Hey, if they want to pull 1,500 troops out of the farce known as Iraq 2, let them. They don't support the war, I can understand.

I find it interesting for other reasons. Someone breaks into my house in the night, I can do one of two things; first kill the bastard, or, bitch and moan because I left my window open. Well I'm a dinosaur, in siding with the school of defending yourself and your home at all costs. So, I find it puzzling, yet not surprising, that a country loses 200 of its own people in a bombing, and decides to elect a bunch pacifists, whose first line of defense is, "Lets all sit around a campfire, sing Bob Marley, and get to know these troubled Islamic fundamentalists with the blood of our country-people on our hands a little better." So, what is happening is this; not only are they are leaving the window, doors, and garage open, but leaving the bean pie in the oven and tablecloth on the coat rack.
Gavintzu
Summer sausage
Level: 45

Posts: 414/443
EXP: 640084
For next: 20085

Since: 2.1.02
From: Calgary ... Alberta Canada

Since last post: 2902 days
Last activity: 2902 days
#12 Posted on 19.4.04 1831.53
Reposted on: 19.4.11 1834.32
Maybe the people of Spain supported a war on al-Qeida rather than an imperialist attack on and occupation of Iraq. Maybe they thought the West should have finished the job in Afghanistan and rooted out the terrorist cells throughout the world before invading some oil-rich third-world nation with no ties to 9/11. Maybe.


TheBucsFan
TheChiefsFan
Level: 109

Posts: 1521/3428
EXP: 13778432
For next: 181258

Since: 2.1.02

Since last post: 108 days
Last activity: 108 days
#13 Posted on 19.4.04 2051.02
Reposted on: 19.4.11 2052.01
    Originally posted by Nag
    "They made the choice to go with a new government, who seems to be actually acting on behalf of the people instead of some (often warped) vision of what's best for those people."

    Wasn't the last Red Flag government in place in Spain voted out due to corruption? Or, were all those bribes placed in the dole?

    Hey, if they want to pull 1,500 troops out of the farce known as Iraq 2, let them. They don't support the war, I can understand.

    I find it interesting for other reasons. Someone breaks into my house in the night, I can do one of two things; first kill the bastard, or, bitch and moan because I left my window open. Well I'm a dinosaur, in siding with the school of defending yourself and your home at all costs. So, I find it puzzling, yet not surprising, that a country loses 200 of its own people in a bombing, and decides to elect a bunch pacifists, whose first line of defense is, "Lets all sit around a campfire, sing Bob Marley, and get to know these troubled Islamic fundamentalists with the blood of our country-people on our hands a little better." So, what is happening is this; not only are they are leaving the window, doors, and garage open, but leaving the bean pie in the oven and tablecloth on the coat rack.


Yes, clearly because they pulled troops out of Iraq they are OPENING THE DOORS TO THEIR OWN COUNTRY TO TERRORISM. Has it occured to ANYONE that maybe they want to defend their own country rather than control another?!? You left an option off up there: you can "kill the bastard, or, bitch and moan because I left my window open" or you can MAKE YOUR OWN HOME MORE SECURE. Instead of killing "the bastard", you can put up an alarm system, lock your doors and windows, etc. Or is that considered "bitching and moaning"?

Do people READ THESE THINGS before saying them? Idiots.
Nag
Landjager
Level: 61

Posts: 620/904
EXP: 1790571
For next: 86036

Since: 10.1.03
From: Enter your city here

Since last post: 2213 days
Last activity: 268 days
Y!:
#14 Posted on 19.4.04 2243.17
Reposted on: 19.4.11 2245.20
"Do people READ THESE THINGS before saying them? Idiots."

Yeah, you know, I'm sure most people on this board read there posts pretty well, I cant think of many instances where they haven't. My biggest concern is people reading OTHER peoples posts before replying. Especially those who are not ADMIN or have some type of net fame, no, we should just blindly disrespect these worthless peons with insults and general lack of comprehension while responding to their posts. Its not just this, or me, but in general.

Now if it isn't too time consuming go back, reread the part about Spanish involvement in Iraq. My gripe or puzzlement was with the peoples reactions to the bombing, NOT the unpopularity of the whopping 1,300 troops deployed in Iraq, in effect a full year prior to the elections. (And before I get flamed for that statement, I am not criticizing, yet it's hardly some national mobilization effort as some make it out to be.)

And yes, alarm system, the best offense is indeed a good defense, well as 9-11, The Oklahoma City Bombing or the Madrid bombings show, its quite possible to slip through the cracks. In which case you fight back, or bitch and moan, sorry if I offend you by preferring the former.
spf
Scrapple
Level: 133

Posts: 2697/5404
EXP: 27270207
For next: 582533

Since: 2.1.02
From: The Las Vegas of Canada

Since last post: 25 days
Last activity: 1 day
AIM:  
#15 Posted on 19.4.04 2311.32
Reposted on: 19.4.11 2312.48
    Originally posted by Nag
    >And yes, alarm system, the best offense is indeed a good defense, well as 9-11, The Oklahoma City Bombing or the Madrid bombings show, its quite possible to slip through the cracks. In which case you fight back, or bitch and moan, sorry if I offend you by preferring the former.

Fighting back isn't the question here. But if someone mugs you while you're walking along, does that mean you have to shoot the next person you see just to make sure that everyone knows you're not going to stand for that sort of thing? Or do you put your energies into dealing with the person who is trying to harm you? Iraq was a shitty place with a shitty leader, but on the list of current threats to world peace, they weren't ranking at the top of the list of anyone who didn't have a prior grudge against them. If you want to take every US troop out of Iraq and put them in the border region between Afghanistan and Pakistan to hunt down any remaining Al-Qaeda, I'll endorse that in a heartbeat. But this is not about defending ourselves or protecting ourselves. We are not safer today than we were a year ago. And neither is the rest of the world, as Madrid so starkly reminded us.
MoeGates
Andouille
Level: 88

Posts: 1626/2109
EXP: 6645791
For next: 4899

Since: 6.1.02
From: Brooklyn, NY

Since last post: 9 hours
Last activity: 56 min.
#16 Posted on 20.4.04 0114.27
Reposted on: 20.4.11 0117.39
All of you need to read the actual Spanish Press and not whatever the hell you're reading now. www.elpais.es Sorry, don't know an English version, but at least read the Brit papers or something.

The short version is that Aznar's reaction to the bombing was what got him booted - mostly trying to immediately pin it on ETA figuring that was what would benefit him more politically in the upcoming elections. The other guy had said all along he'd pull troops from Iraq, and not keeping a campaign promise 72% of the Nation supports isn't a great recipe for political success in any country.

Seeing other countries' internal politics solely through the lens of America's issues is just ignorant.
rockdotcom_2.0
Frankfurter
Level: 57

Posts: 524/763
EXP: 1445794
For next: 40143

Since: 9.1.02
From: Virginia Beach Va

Since last post: 617 days
Last activity: 232 days
AIM:  
#17 Posted on 20.4.04 0451.53
Reposted on: 20.4.11 0458.04
Spain isnt appeasing anybody. Sounds like to me somebody over there has got his head in the right place.

Spain to double number of troops in Aghanistan (cnn.com)

Imagine that. They actually want to increase the number of forces chasing Al-Queada!
DrDirt
Banger
Level: 96

Posts: 657/2706
EXP: 8978882
For next: 9937

Since: 8.10.03
From: flyover country

Since last post: 1 day
Last activity: 17 hours
#18 Posted on 20.4.04 0833.40
Reposted on: 20.4.11 0835.05
I have avoided this thread but, Oh Well. Is it a smart move? Who really knows. Terrorists are not "normal" people. The governemnt was elected on a pledge to remove the troops. And they did. Don't we cry foul when a pol doesn't do what they promised? Spain has always marched to it's own drum. When Franco was in power, he didn't do what fellow fascist Hitler wanted, even after Germany's support in the civil war.

The main item is that we must stop the knee-jerk hatred towards countries who don't follow our lead like mind-numbed robots. As of now, the Bush Administration seems to be realizing this and the fact that we can't alienate the entire world.
Grimis
Scrapple
Level: 124

Posts: 3039/4700
EXP: 21669552
For next: 167110

Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1305 days
Last activity: 1102 days
#19 Posted on 20.4.04 0842.34
Reposted on: 20.4.11 0846.00
    Originally posted by DrDirt
    The main item is that we must stop the knee-jerk hatred towards countries who don't follow our lead like mind-numbed robots.
This isn't knee-jerk hatred towards anybody. Spain is an ally and a member of NATO. But the Spanish government had the choice between standing up to terrorism or waving the white flag. And the Zapatero government waved the white flag and gave them a free pass.

The terrorists wanted a change in goverment and to get Spain out of Iraq. The terrorists won.
The Amazing Salami
Sujuk
Level: 64

Posts: 846/1000
EXP: 2138111
For next: 75998

Since: 23.5.02
From: Oklahoma

Since last post: 3823 days
Last activity: 3822 days
#20 Posted on 20.4.04 0848.21
Reposted on: 20.4.11 0855.55
    Originally posted by Grimis
      Originally posted by DrDirt
      The main item is that we must stop the knee-jerk hatred towards countries who don't follow our lead like mind-numbed robots.
    This isn't knee-jerk hatred towards anybody. Spain is an ally and a member of NATO. But the Spanish government had the choice between standing up to terrorism or waving the white flag. And the Zapatero government waved the white flag and gave them a free pass.

    The terrorists wanted a change in goverment and to get Spain out of Iraq. The terrorists won.


That's a really simple and shallow way to look at all this. I'm afraid there are a few more factors in play.....(gasp) maybe even some you aren't aware of.
Pages: 1 2 NextThread ahead: SCOTUS Likely to Let Mexican Trucks In
Next thread: Federal Panel Says Oceans in "Deep Trouble"
Previous thread: Daschle convinces Giago to Leave Race
(1001 newer) Next thread | Previous thread
The 7 - Current Events & Politics - Spain officially goes France on usRegister and log in to post!

The W™ message board - 7 year recycle

ZimBoard
©2001-2014 Brothers Zim
This old hunk of junk rendered your page in 0.195 seconds.