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The 7 - Music - Kurt Cobain: 10 years ago? Already??
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Hogan's My Dad
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#41 Posted on 7.4.04 1638.23
Reposted on: 7.4.11 1640.27
    Originally posted by Quezzy
    Well i'm not going to be pretend to be a big grunge music expert or anything, but I was never impressed by their music. Sure they could've been a great influence but it doesn't really sadden me to hear about his anniversary. I have no sympathy for someone who took his own life. It's a cop out and pretty cowardly. He had all that money and fans who worshipped him and he just killed himself? Seems pretty pathetic to me.


    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    I guess the reason I couldnt really get into the whole Nirvana/Kurt's a genius thing is because, simply, I wasnt depressed. I have a happy life, I dont sit around and complain about simple shit, and how the world isnt exactly how I want it. But, I guess if thats the way people are, then they need something to hold on to, so be it.


It speaks to your lack of understanding about suicide, medically, that you hold these opinions. I used to feel that it's the easy way out, but the amount of emotional agony someone has to go through before s(he) decides to end his/her life is really hard to comprehend. If you're always feeling like the world is coming down on you, like nothing will ever work out, like you hate yourself, then while I'm certainly not saying go right ahead I can sort of understand it. We don't know what Kurt was going through and to say money and fans should automatically make someone happy is ignorant. Depression is depression, and it can be crippling, and having cash and admiration can't pull you out of something your body is creating through an uncontrollable imbalance. Assuming that everyone who kills themselves just "sat around complaining about simple shit" trivializes their personal struggles. You don't know that you could have handled what he endured emotionally. None of knows that for sure.

I don't like Kurt too much personally. I like Teen Spirit, Rape Me, and You Know You're Right but that's about it. Mostly their shit is too brooding and depressing and lacks melody. Yes, even screaming rock can be delivered with melody, and bottom line if the tune ain't catchy I ain't listenin'. So this isn't me rushing to defend Nirvana or some kind of legacy, I'm just saying it's best not to judge the steps other people take.


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#42 Posted on 7.4.04 1818.37
Reposted on: 7.4.11 1820.19
The Calgary Sun has had a reporter in Seattle all week filing stories regarding this "anniversary."

Spare me with the "Cobain was a spokesperson for a generation" garbage.

Thanks, but I don't need some strung out, escaped rehab heroin addict speaking on behalf of me or anyone else my age.
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#43 Posted on 7.4.04 1925.08
Reposted on: 7.4.11 1927.32
I understand suicide and depression very well, thank you very much. What I dont understand is the fascination with his life and his taking of his life as if he was some sort of martyr to depressed people for doing it. I never got into his music, because I was and still am, a happy person. Thats all I was saying about it. I cant relate to that shit.
CRZ
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#44 Posted on 7.4.04 1938.22
Reposted on: 7.4.11 1939.36
Yep, I sure miss Machines of Loving Grace. Whatever HAPPENED to them?
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#45 Posted on 7.4.04 2029.27
Reposted on: 7.4.11 2029.43
I hate the whole labeling of generations, its so false and inaccurate it isn't funny. So I must contradict myself and ask, why was it so cool to feel depressed and hopeless in the 90's? I'm not trying to sit on a pedestal here, I had the whole 'life sucks' attitude about me back then, yet I was a dumb kid. But for the first time since the 20's there was no wars or threat of nuclear disaster, no social or racial turmoil after Rodney King in 92, the economy was good, everyone had jobs, crime was down, loads of new innovations; by the way some people act the decade was full of more melancholy then the great depression. Sure the decade left some things behind which I loathe; Political Correctness, Anti-Smoking Laws, media conglomerates, reality TV, but looking back, it was a good time to 'come of age'.

For that reason and for what is left behind from the wake of music from those days, I still don't see Nirvana's relevance, well not to this grand extent. Yeah you have bands like Linkin Park who cite Nirvana as an influence, but who is Linkin Park but a bunch of rich 30 year old men who grew up in Orange County, and bitch and whine about how they couldn't get laid in highscool. Get the fuck over it. Hell, Avril Lavigne cites Nirvana as an influence, whaaa? Next they are going to tell me Ralph Nader was inspired by Mein Kumpf.

fuelinjected
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#46 Posted on 7.4.04 2049.34
Reposted on: 7.4.11 2051.22
Ya know, there was more to Nirvana then Kurt Cobain. Dave Grohl's done pretty well for himself, don't ya think?

I wasn't a depressed self-loathing drug addict but I enjoyed Nirvana's music and I still do because it sounds good, really good. I could relate to some of the things they were saying but not to the depths that Cobain was hurting.

I get to agree with Hogan's My Dad (what?) because it's way too easy to just look at it as this rich guy with all the fame and money in the world had it all and is pathetic for offing himself (if he even did - for the conspiracy peeps).

Cobain shouldn't be held as some sort of role model or symbol for anything, that was part of his troubles, he hated that. He was just a troubled guy who loved to make music and IMO, made some damn good music.
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#47 Posted on 7.4.04 2120.20
Reposted on: 7.4.11 2121.27
Please, lord, let me have the strength and wisdom to walk away from fame if it ever gets too much for me!

He could have died a recluse, instead of having people say his fame consumed him. He chose to stay in the spotlight, and he chose to off himself. Either way, he took the pussy way out.
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#48 Posted on 7.4.04 2134.50
Reposted on: 7.4.11 2135.09
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    Either way, he took the pussy way out.


Nah, the pussy way out would have been if he had succeeded with the mix of the bottle of pills and champagne he tried.
The Amazing Salami
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#49 Posted on 8.4.04 0836.24
Reposted on: 8.4.11 0836.36
    Originally posted by CRZ
    Yep, I sure miss Machines of Loving Grace. Whatever HAPPENED to them?


The broke up in June 2000 because Scott Benzel decided he would rather work on his remixing production work and several side projects, like Brasil 666 (which sucked, IMHO). Of course by then, Benzel was the only original member (though they did get the guy from Stabbing Westward at some point).

On a happier side note, Mike Fisher released the first Amish Rake Fight album last May (I think that date is right).
www.amishrakefight.com
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#50 Posted on 8.4.04 1313.49
Reposted on: 8.4.11 1313.52
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    Please, lord, let me have the strength and wisdom to walk away from fame if it ever gets too much for me!

    He could have died a recluse, instead of having people say his fame consumed him. He chose to stay in the spotlight, and he chose to off himself. Either way, he took the pussy way out.


Am I the only one who heard that he had this incurable stomach "thing" that left him in pretty much constant pain (and the relief from the pain was part of the reason for his heroin dependency) and he chose Suicide: The Ultimate Pain Reliever? I know he had emotional issues and all, but I swear I heard his stomach played a part in it.
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#51 Posted on 8.4.04 1341.56
Reposted on: 8.4.11 1343.36
    Originally posted by JayJayDean
    Am I the only one who heard that he had this incurable stomach "thing" that left him in pretty much constant pain (and the relief from the pain was part of the reason for his heroin dependency) and he chose Suicide: The Ultimate Pain Reliever? I know he had emotional issues and all, but I swear I heard his stomach played a part in it.


I think I heard the same thing too, probably on some VH1 special (and earlier in this thread, I think).
Roy.
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#52 Posted on 8.4.04 1422.03
Reposted on: 8.4.11 1422.29
    Originally posted by Broncolanche
      Originally posted by JayJayDean
      Am I the only one who heard that he had this incurable stomach "thing" that left him in pretty much constant pain (and the relief from the pain was part of the reason for his heroin dependency) and he chose Suicide: The Ultimate Pain Reliever? I know he had emotional issues and all, but I swear I heard his stomach played a part in it.


    I think I heard the same thing too, probably on some VH1 special (and earlier in this thread, I think).


He had some stomach ailment that he said was relieved only by taking herion. I guess methadone based drugs did the trick for him, and herion was easier. The problem I have with this is that no doctor ever gave him a diagnosis. They all just gave him drugs. So he had some incurable, undetectable, mysterious disease, or he saw some terrible doctors.

While reading about him this week, I did not realize that 68 (that's the number I read) people killed themselves in the same way that he did shortly thereafter, citing his own suicide as the reason. So not only did he kill himself, he pushed a lot of other people over the edge with him. That sucks.
JoshMann
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#53 Posted on 8.4.04 1437.31
Reposted on: 8.4.11 1439.42
    Originally posted by Roy.
      Originally posted by Broncolanche
        Originally posted by JayJayDean
        Am I the only one who heard that he had this incurable stomach "thing" that left him in pretty much constant pain (and the relief from the pain was part of the reason for his heroin dependency) and he chose Suicide: The Ultimate Pain Reliever? I know he had emotional issues and all, but I swear I heard his stomach played a part in it.


      I think I heard the same thing too, probably on some VH1 special (and earlier in this thread, I think).


    He had some stomach ailment that he said was relieved only by taking herion. I guess methadone based drugs did the trick for him, and herion was easier. The problem I have with this is that no doctor ever gave him a diagnosis. They all just gave him drugs. So he had some incurable, undetectable, mysterious disease, or he saw some terrible doctors.

    While reading about him this week, I did not realize that 68 (that's the number I read) people killed themselves in the same way that he did shortly thereafter, citing his own suicide as the reason. So not only did he kill himself, he pushed a lot of other people over the edge with him. That sucks.


I remember distinctly that in one of the cover stories in Rolling Stone (if my memory is 100% on the ball, it was the CORPORATE MAGAZINES STILL SUCK issue) he was asked from what part of his diaphram was under the most strain when he sang and he (according to the author) pointed to the exact same point of his stomach where he said was getting pains from.

Iago
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#54 Posted on 10.4.04 0544.55
Reposted on: 10.4.11 0546.55
    Originally posted by Roy.
      Originally posted by Broncolanche
        Originally posted by JayJayDean
        Am I the only one who heard that he had this incurable stomach "thing" that left him in pretty much constant pain (and the relief from the pain was part of the reason for his heroin dependency) and he chose Suicide: The Ultimate Pain Reliever? I know he had emotional issues and all, but I swear I heard his stomach played a part in it.


      I think I heard the same thing too, probably on some VH1 special (and earlier in this thread, I think).


    He had some stomach ailment that he said was relieved only by taking herion. I guess methadone based drugs did the trick for him, and herion was easier. The problem I have with this is that no doctor ever gave him a diagnosis. They all just gave him drugs. So he had some incurable, undetectable, mysterious disease, or he saw some terrible doctors.

    While reading about him this week, I did not realize that 68 (that's the number I read) people killed themselves in the same way that he did shortly thereafter, citing his own suicide as the reason. So not only did he kill himself, he pushed a lot of other people over the edge with him. That sucks.


Yeah... Cobain made those people shoot themselves. His ghost was there egging them on... Bullshit! He was an excuse, that's all, people who are willing to off themselves cause some rock star killed himself were probably in such a condition that if they didn't get the help they needed then they were going to kill themselves sooner or later.

But yeah... it hard to have been Cobain's fault. Just like it was his fault that I needed to get my ass on Zoloft.
Roy.
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#55 Posted on 12.4.04 1347.46
Reposted on: 12.4.11 1349.00
    Originally posted by Iago
      Originally posted by Roy.
        Originally posted by Broncolanche
          Originally posted by JayJayDean
          Am I the only one who heard that he had this incurable stomach "thing" that left him in pretty much constant pain (and the relief from the pain was part of the reason for his heroin dependency) and he chose Suicide: The Ultimate Pain Reliever? I know he had emotional issues and all, but I swear I heard his stomach played a part in it.


        I think I heard the same thing too, probably on some VH1 special (and earlier in this thread, I think).


      He had some stomach ailment that he said was relieved only by taking herion. I guess methadone based drugs did the trick for him, and herion was easier. The problem I have with this is that no doctor ever gave him a diagnosis. They all just gave him drugs. So he had some incurable, undetectable, mysterious disease, or he saw some terrible doctors.

      While reading about him this week, I did not realize that 68 (that's the number I read) people killed themselves in the same way that he did shortly thereafter, citing his own suicide as the reason. So not only did he kill himself, he pushed a lot of other people over the edge with him. That sucks.


    Yeah... Cobain made those people shoot themselves. His ghost was there egging them on... Bullshit! He was an excuse, that's all, people who are willing to off themselves cause some rock star killed himself were probably in such a condition that if they didn't get the help they needed then they were going to kill themselves sooner or later.

    But yeah... it hard to have been Cobain's fault. Just like it was his fault that I needed to get my ass on Zoloft.


I didn't say that it was his fault. I said that he pushed some people over the edge with him. His death hit people very hard (read this thread and search for his name on Google). Some people couldn't take their idol and "voice" blowing his own brains out. If he was the influence that everybody seems to be saying that he is (the "voice of a generation" and stuff), then didn't his own suicide have some part in the suicide of some of his fans? When a generation's "voice" blows his brains out because his own life is so shitty, what does that say about the generation? And, more importantly, what does it say about those fans who kill themselves in the same way that he did, even mentioning him in their suicide notes? Sure, they were troubled individuals before Cobain ever came around (probably), but what happens when a man of his influence kills himself? I still know people who mourn his death every year, and treat him like some kind of God. You can't say that his suicide existed in a bubble. Just like his music, it had a huge influence on many people.
Iago
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#56 Posted on 15.4.04 0445.33
Reposted on: 15.4.11 0447.32
    Originally posted by Roy.
      Originally posted by Iago
        Originally posted by Roy.
          Originally posted by Broncolanche
            Originally posted by JayJayDean
            Am I the only one who heard that he had this incurable stomach "thing" that left him in pretty much constant pain (and the relief from the pain was part of the reason for his heroin dependency) and he chose Suicide: The Ultimate Pain Reliever? I know he had emotional issues and all, but I swear I heard his stomach played a part in it.


          I think I heard the same thing too, probably on some VH1 special (and earlier in this thread, I think).


        He had some stomach ailment that he said was relieved only by taking herion. I guess methadone based drugs did the trick for him, and herion was easier. The problem I have with this is that no doctor ever gave him a diagnosis. They all just gave him drugs. So he had some incurable, undetectable, mysterious disease, or he saw some terrible doctors.

        While reading about him this week, I did not realize that 68 (that's the number I read) people killed themselves in the same way that he did shortly thereafter, citing his own suicide as the reason. So not only did he kill himself, he pushed a lot of other people over the edge with him. That sucks.


      Yeah... Cobain made those people shoot themselves. His ghost was there egging them on... Bullshit! He was an excuse, that's all, people who are willing to off themselves cause some rock star killed himself were probably in such a condition that if they didn't get the help they needed then they were going to kill themselves sooner or later.

      But yeah... it hard to have been Cobain's fault. Just like it was his fault that I needed to get my ass on Zoloft.


    I didn't say that it was his fault. I said that he pushed some people over the edge with him. His death hit people very hard (read this thread and search for his name on Google). Some people couldn't take their idol and "voice" blowing his own brains out. If he was the influence that everybody seems to be saying that he is (the "voice of a generation" and stuff), then didn't his own suicide have some part in the suicide of some of his fans? When a generation's "voice" blows his brains out because his own life is so shitty, what does that say about the generation? And, more importantly, what does it say about those fans who kill themselves in the same way that he did, even mentioning him in their suicide notes? Sure, they were troubled individuals before Cobain ever came around (probably), but what happens when a man of his influence kills himself? I still know people who mourn his death every year, and treat him like some kind of God. You can't say that his suicide existed in a bubble. Just like his music, it had a huge influence on many people.


Maybe it's me, I dunno, but he didn't kill all those people. It was suicide they commited. They commited it, not him. He didn't do it. They chose to off themselves. I try to dredge up a bit of sympathy for them, but I find it hard when they offed themselves cause some guy they didn't know, yet identified with, or considered a genius blew his brains out.

It's an excuse to say it any other way.

The death of someone you don't know, and don't hold a close personal relationship is an adequate excuse to kill yourself. Fuck, to be honest there is no excuse for offing yourself really.

Maybe it's my perception, but one of the images that Cobain accidentally pushed forward towards the people listening to his music, and then noticing his subsequent death was that: Things don't get better, it will always be this bad. For that I kinda resent him. I bought into it for awhile, a lot of teenagers do. And I have no idea why. I just hope that isn't his strongest legacy.

Whatever influence he may have had, they made the choice to end their lives. No he didn't exist in a bubble, but his influence wasn't holding the gun, or needle, or knife, or whatever.

It was a stupid waste. The ultimate expression of selfishness and escapism, but again that's the option they took. So it was their responsibility, and whatever reprocussions happens is the consequence of their actions.
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#57 Posted on 19.4.04 2210.28
Reposted on: 19.4.11 2211.01
everybody has their own opinions, and everybody has a right to have them, but allow me to ask a couple of questions...

so let's say that you had a band, and you never figured that you would ever be huge, because you never saw bands who play music like you do become huge. so all you really want is to make music, and make enough money to not have to have a second job. so you have a small following, and you get on an indie label. but, indie labels aren't the most reliable types (remember; sub pop did go bankrupt) so you sign to a major, because you know that this major label would give you some exposure, but you still never would think that you would be THE GUY leading THE BAND that would be huge.

and, you suffer from depression, and serious drug issues that stem from that depression, and you have had a messed up childhood.

so you make your album on your major label, and you do have a wave of popularity going, but you still don't think that you will create a huge shift in cultural tastes. mind you, you still suffer from that crippling depression/psychosomatic feelings.

so your album comes out, you start your club tour to promote the album. but, the album BLOWS UP AND BECOMES HUGE. all of a sudden, the songs you wrote is all of a sudden becoming a voicebox for a generation. and you're the new young popular kid, and everybody wants a piece of you...... your club dates are packed in full, and the video that you made is playing non stop on MTV, and everybody wants to go inside your "heart and mind" (as rolling stone said back in the day).

so, everybody is looking at you, thinking that you are the answer, and is picking at you, an you suffer from depression, and have a tendency to go towards drugs as an escape.

my main point here is is that no other band besides the Beatles had to go through the intense media and pop culture pressure that Kurt and Nirvana had to go through. this band was so out of nowhere and so least likely to become this important that when it did happen, everybody gang-piled on them, and if you were in an already fragile state of mind, it would seriously effect you. so you have this, on top of the fact that you did speak of trying to use your influence to change what is pop culture, only to have your efforts go unoticed. you can say that the ulcers contributed, and a lot of factors, but if you were a fragile person mentally who had a penchant for excaping through drugs, a situation like what they went through would be very unexpected and difficult.

that seems to me like a very real reason to understand why he did what he did.
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