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The 7 - Current Events & Politics - Slave decendant to Sue Llyod's
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DrOp
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#1 Posted on 1.4.04 0814.39
Reposted on: 1.4.11 0815.59
http://news.bbc.co.uk/ 2/hi/uk_news/3578863.stm


    Descendants of black American slaves are to sue Lloyd's of London for insuring ships used in the trade.
    High-profile US lawyer Edward Fagan, who secured settlements from Swiss companies in the Nazi gold case, is taking the action for 10 plaintiffs.

    He says by underwriting slave ships in the 1700-1800s the UK's oldest insurance firm played a key role.

    The action, which claims defendants still suffer, was lodged on Monday according to Associated Press.

    The American plaintiffs have produced DNA evidence they say links them with ancestors on recorded slave ships which sailed between Africa and the United States.

    One says he has the insurance documents from when Lloyd's of London underwrote the ship his ancestors were on.


    Lloyd's knew what they were doing led to the destruction of indigenous populations
    Edward Fagan
    US lawyer
    Mr Fagan is heading the action against several parties including Lloyd's.
    He forced Swiss companies into a 1.25bn settlement on behalf of Nazi victims and is also leading a claim against companies for their role in South Africa under apartheid.

    He told the BBC: "Lloyd's was one of the spokes in a hub-and-spoke conspiracy.

    'Ongoing injuries'

    "Lloyd's knew what they were doing led to the destruction of indigenous populations.

    "They took people, put them on board ships and wiped out their identities."

    He denied events were too far in the past.

    "There's ongoing injuries that these people suffer from.

    "Why is it too far fetched to say blacks should be entitled to compensation for damages and genocide committed against them, when every other group in the world that has been victimised in this way has been?"

    'Educational issue'

    But Kofi Klu, a campaigner on slavery and reparations to the descendants of slaves, told the BBC he believed the legal action could be counter-productive.

    "We have to make sure that the focus does not shift from the broad, deeper understanding of reparations to just one of financial compensation," he said.

    "We see action for reparations more as an educational issue of bringing masses of people into the fight against racism - and racism is the direct product of historical and contemporary enslavement."

    Lloyd's was founded in 17th Century London dockside coffee houses by Edward Lloyd.


    I suffer from the injury of not knowing who I am, having no nationality or ethnic group
    Deadria Farmer-Paellman
    Slave descendant
    It provided cover for merchants taking slaves and goods between Africa, the Americas and the Caribbean at a time when many vessels sank or fell victim to pirates.

    Britain abolished slavery in the 1830s and the US followed 30 years later.

    During the trade more than 10 million people are estimated to have been traded at West African ports and herded on to slave ships.

    One plaintiff, Deadria Farmer-Paellman said the slave trade denied her identity.

    "Today I suffer from the injury of not knowing who I am, having no nationality or ethnic group as a result of acts committed by these parties," she said.

    'Glossed over'

    Lawyers in the UK have welcomed the case.

    Barrister Lincoln Crawford OBE chairs the Home Office working party on slavery and is a member of the Race Equality Advisory Panel.

    He said it highlighted an important event that "cannot be glossed over".

    "There is no doubt that slavery was a crime against humanity and for a lot of black people the consequences of slavery still exist today."


    It's a bit like saying the manufacturer of guns facilitated the killing
    Fraser Whitehead
    Lawyer
    He said it was hard to see how they would win but added, "I would like them to".

    Lawyer Fraser Whitehead, the Law Society's former head of civil litigation, said the case was not about "compensation culture".

    It would be hard to prove that by insuring the merchants, Lloyd's supported the trade, he said.

    "It's a bit like saying the manufacturer of guns facilitated the killing."

    A Lloyds spokeswoman said: "We haven't seen this claim, so we are not in a position to comment.

    "Previous claims regarding slavery involving Lloyd's have been dismissed without prejudice."



Reparations are bullshit. Plain and simple. Cash alone is NOT the answer.

Its not as if African Americans are the only folk to suffer (currently) from Racism.

It's frustrating in that it seems as if there is this huge inferiority complex because the Slave Trade has not garnered the world wide sympathy of the Holocaust.

At this point, the slave trade is holding no one down.

What IS holding Af-AMs down is:

1. Materialism (bling bling and cars over houses and land)--but we still want 40 acres and a mule, right? Property is the way to material excess (if that's what you're into). Once you have a house, you can buy ANYTHING.

2. A trans-generational lack of understanding that there is life beyond the urban scene and you need to find a way to be a part of that.

3. The incredulous notion that being a nerd and getting good grades is somehow WRONG

and

4. The idea that speaking Standard American English, reading books for novelty's sake, and succeeding is somehow akin with "acting white." Can I speak African American Dialect? You bet. Can I speak Standard Ameican English? Yup. Do I know when to do each? No doubt.
It's the difference between being only able to communicate in the barber shop and being able to communicate in both the barber shop AND the board room.


Try it. You might like it. Hey Mikey!!

DrOp--IMOHO, of course.

Promote this thread!
Grimis
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#2 Posted on 1.4.04 0816.48
Reposted on: 1.4.11 0816.51
APPLAUSE!!!
spf
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#3 Posted on 1.4.04 1404.54
Reposted on: 1.4.11 1405.06
Wow. That might have been the single most incredibly ignorant stereotyping, lump everyone into one category post I've ever seen, and that's saying something considering I read this forum a lot.

But since that sort of response alone would be called a flame (even though it's accurate), let's look a bit at these points:

1. Yes, property is useful. However the utterly ludicrous notion that even a sizable subset of African-Americans are somehow blowing all their cash on getting cool spinny diamond necklaces is just pure fallacy. Much more problematic is the fact that even in this enlightened day and age the arrival of a minority family on a suburban block will still cause "for sale" signs to sprout up more readily than any other purchaser would.

2. Going back to number 1 for one thing. Also the fact that again, many African-Americans live in non-urban environments. Also your depiction of an "urban scene" is a wonderful bit of spin. I suppose the black guy who lives 2 floors down from me is part of the "urban scene" since we live in an apt. building in Chicago. Or are you only referring to the image that the media loves to spin of cracked-out ghettos with buildings pocked with bullet holes and furtive drug deals? The places where no one ever chooses to live, but sometimes get stuck at because there are no better options?

3. Yeah, heaven knows that in mostly white schools the smart kids are beloved and every one says great things about them. Must have been nice in your school where no one ever screwed with the "brains". Again just total stereotyping based on a very small subset that is blown out of proportion due to being latched onto by mostly white suburban kids trying to seem dangerous.

4. I should show your post to the editor in the office across the hall from me. I'm sure her black ass would be able to pick out all sorts of grammar flaws in your speech. But then I'm sure you know when to use msg board grammar and when to speak the King's English.

Your entire post seems to indicate that your whole perception of an ethnic group of some 25-30 million people comes from a couple of movies and an hour spent watching MTV. Or a couple of bad rides on a city bus where some kids were yelling too loud for your taste.
Von Maestro
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#4 Posted on 1.4.04 1432.28
Reposted on: 1.4.11 1433.08
    Originally posted by spf2119
    Wow. That might have been the single most incredibly ignorant stereotyping, lump everyone into one category post I've ever seen ...... Much more problematic is the fact that even in this enlightened day and age the arrival of a minority family on a suburban block will still cause "for sale" signs to sprout up more readily than any other purchaser would.


I find your accusations of Drop's "incredibly ignorant stereotyping" kind of hypocritical when put next to this "enlightened fact" you've presented us with...
Leroy
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#5 Posted on 1.4.04 1437.49
Reposted on: 1.4.11 1438.14
    Originally posted by spf2119
    Your entire post seems to indicate that your whole perception of an ethnic group of some 25-30 million people comes from a couple of movies and an hour spent watching MTV. Or a couple of bad rides on a city bus where some kids were yelling too loud for your taste.


Spf - I think you did a pretty decent job of responding... not sure I could have been quite so polite. And having gone down this road once before... Incidentally, if you are really interested, you might want to check out some of Randall Robinson's work.

The fact that most arguments against reparations tend to have these sorts of racists undertones just show, despite making great progress in the last 30-40 years, that we have a long way to go. And, in my view, tends to lend even MORE credibility to the reparations movement.


CarlCX
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#6 Posted on 1.4.04 1644.01
Reposted on: 1.4.11 1644.34
Does no one else see the irony in attempting to disprove one set of generalized statements by making more?

You can no sooner create some kind of legal or social precedent that will make the negative members of the African-American race change their ways than you can stop racists from being prejudiced or the diehardedly religious from hating homosexuals or any other racial, social or ethical group from changing ANY potentially dangerous or destructive opinion or action, for one simple reason:

They're not a bloody group, they're a collection of individuals. The advancement and evolution of ANY social group relies solely on the efforts of its individuals. That's why general criteria and general answers do no good whatsoever: the problem lays not in the general mentality, but in how it is applied. The only solutions are the continued activities of the positive individuals in the community or the rise of a Martin Luther King Jr./Gandhi-esque spiritual figure with a true sense of good in mind, which we are currently sorely lacking.

There's no easy answer for either side: reparations won't solve the problem, and nor will general reasonings like ours. The only real answer, as with almost all positive movements in history, involves a long, grueling and ultimately rewarding evolutionary process, and whether or not that takes place, let alone WORKS, will lay in the actions of individuals within the group.
Eddie Famous
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#7 Posted on 1.4.04 1722.13
Reposted on: 1.4.11 1724.39
My Cherokee ancestors would like all of you to go away. Thank you.

PS Leave all the buildings and stuff. Reparations, you know.
PalpatineW
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#8 Posted on 1.4.04 1834.35
Reposted on: 1.4.11 1836.28
    Originally posted by spf2119
    Your entire post seems to indicate that your whole perception of an ethnic group of some 25-30 million people comes from a couple of movies and an hour spent watching MTV. Or a couple of bad rides on a city bus where some kids were yelling too loud for your taste.


You guys are great. You do realize that, being himself African-American, DrOp probably speaks from a far more informed viewpoint than a few hand-wringing lefties looking for any reason to get on the soapbox? What does your sense of that ethnic group come from, your seemingly entrenched belief that black people need you to champion them, o virtuous liberal?

(edited by PalpatineW on 1.4.04 1934)
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#9 Posted on 1.4.04 1943.58
Reposted on: 1.4.11 1945.09
I think this is a very complicated issue. There's a lot more everyone of every kind of background could do to help both themselves and society as a whole. I generally try to follow the rule of "first, look in the mirror and change what you can. Then ask other people to do the same" philosophy, which is why I tend to stay away from the discussions of what other people of other backgrounds can do better to solve a collective problem.

Stanley Crouch, an opinion columnist for the NY Daily News, usually has a good, balanced take on the issue. Read some of his columns.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/col/scrouch/
StaggerLee
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#10 Posted on 1.4.04 2101.38
Reposted on: 1.4.11 2102.38
I have never met a somebody who was a slave. I have however, cared for several people in my job, who still have these tattoos on their arms.

That's the difference between the slave issue and the Holocaust.
DrOp
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#11 Posted on 2.4.04 0504.47
Reposted on: 2.4.11 0505.13
PalpatimeW said:

    You guys are great. You do realize that, being himself African-American, DrOp probably speaks from a far more informed viewpoint than a few hand-wringing lefties looking for any reason to get on the soapbox? What does your sense of that ethnic group come from, your seemingly entrenched belief that black people need you to champion them, o virtuous liberal?



Thanks for paying attention over the years, dude!

I don't think I've ever been called racist before, but I guess there's a first time for everything? My comments are made from my experiences growing up and working in and around Baltimore. No more, no less. The things I speak of, I see first hand, everyday (and not from a distance).

At any event--The only type of "reparations" I could even consider in good conscience would be those that beefed up educational opportunities moreso than now (beginning with the decrepid urban school scene), and only then becuase it was once illegal to educate slaves and those types of scars linger on in some places.

My apologies for believing that education can be an equalizer.

You can not simply take disenfranchised people out the ghetto. You must first take the "ghetto" out of the people, who will then take themselves out of the ghetto. (I forget whose quote I just paraphrased).
spf
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#12 Posted on 2.4.04 1045.40
Reposted on: 2.4.11 1046.20
I was and am fully aware that Drop is African-American. That does not however mean that his statements are any less incorrect in my opinion in that he is still lumping everyone into one small set of stereotypes. In fact the last post just hit it again, when referring to "taking the ghetto" out of people. The statement as a statement is still inaccurate, simply because the statement referred to the entire African-American group. I would probably not even have responded had it been qualified in some way or another, but the complaints about excess materialism and urban mindset and improper grammar were put on the entire group.

And as for Palp's statement, mine comes from the same place anyone's impressions should come from, the combination of study and experience. I personally know too many people who don't fit into the box into which that post painted an entire group without qualification, and I have read and studied too much that is in opposition to that statement. So I disagreed with it. Or would you like to set the precedent that if you're not part of a group you can't have an opinion on it, even if that position is in opposition to a member of that group?

Is education a great equalizer? It can be. If I lived somewhere that had equal education opportunity in disinfranchised neighborhoods I would be even more enamored with that statement. Whether it's as "reparations" or simply because it is hideous to see generations of kids start with such a handicap I would like to see improvements in urban schools, where children of all races are going. That would be the most forward looking act that we could do.



DrOp
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#13 Posted on 2.4.04 1058.15
Reposted on: 2.4.11 1058.54
I never intended to refer to the entire African American group. That was your interpretation. I mean, I *guess* I could have said *some* but isn't that understood (maybe not). And my last statement was a quote. Did you miss that?

And how exactly can I qualify materialism for you? I told you my observations over 31 years, living, breathing, cavorting with and talking to people. I assume that isn't enough?

It's like when guys said "No Scrubs" was a diss of all males. No, it was a diss of scrubs.
oldschoolhero
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#14 Posted on 2.4.04 1205.25
Reposted on: 2.4.11 1205.32
Hey, I'M a handwringing leftie, and I think this lawsuit is a big ol' helping o' bullshit. And I am kinda feeling Drop's point, too. But there is waaay too much generalisation going on on both sides. It's a problem that can't be broken down this simply, and that's BEFORE you bring Eddie's equally valid-and funny-retort into the equation.
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#15 Posted on 2.4.04 1456.11
Reposted on: 2.4.11 1459.10
    Originally posted by oldschoolhero
    Hey, I'M a handwringing leftie, and I think this lawsuit is a big ol' helping o' bullshit. And I am kinda feeling Drop's point, too. But there is waaay too much generalisation going on on both sides. It's a problem that can't be broken down this simply, and that's BEFORE you bring Eddie's equally valid-and funny-retort into the equation.


That's the way it is becoming here in the USA. Simple answers for complex problems.
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