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Grimis
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#1 Posted on 31.3.04 1126.10
Reposted on: 31.3.11 1129.04
You'd hope the courts would've done enough damage to this draft already....

Appeals Court to hear Clarett Case before draft

NEW YORK -- A federal appeals court will hear the dispute over whether Maurice Clarett can enter the NFL draft less than a week before the draft takes place.

The NFL on Tuesday tried to convince a three-judge panel of the 2nd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals that it should block Clarett's entry by staying the effect of a lower court judge's ruling that he be allowed in the April 24-25 draft even though the former Ohio State running back is only two years out of high school.

The appeals panel instead agreed to set oral arguments for April 19 and suggested it might immediately rule whether Clarett can enter the draft, with a written ruling to follow explaining its reasoning.

NFL lawyer Gregg Levy told the appeals court he was satisfied with the plan.

"We want a decision before the draft. That's what's important to us," he said.

Added NFL chief counsel Jeff Pash, speaking at the NFL meetings in Palm Beach, Fla., "We are very optimistic. We think it is a positive indicator of the seriousness with which the court of appeals is taking the argument."

Pash said if the court rules in the NFL's favor before the draft, Clarett, Southern California sophomore Mike Williams and seven others would not be included.

Clarett's lawyer, Alan Milstein, convinced the appeals court not to stay the effect of the lower court ruling Tuesday, saying such a ruling would cause NFL teams not to take his client as seriously before the draft.

"They did not issue a stay," Milstein told The Associated Press. "They set forth an expedited briefing schedule. Nothing happened today that was unexpected. The court is just doing what it needs to do to work hard and get Maurice in the draft -- and with plenty of time to do it."

Milstein also rejected the NFL's suggestion that Clarett would be unharmed if he was kept out of the draft by a stay, then permitted to enter a supplemental draft if the appeals court eventually rules in Clarett's favor. Milstein said Clarett would lose leverage to negotiate a contract, as well as practice time and time to learn his new team's playbook, if he were not drafted in April.

Clarett announced his intention to enter the draft after U.S. District Judge Shira Scheindlin in February tossed out a league rule that a player must be out of high school three years for draft eligibility. She said the rule violated antitrust law.

The NFL's argument is the league and the NFLPA collectively bargained the three-year requirement for draft eligibility. Clarett's attorney contends that high school and college players are not part of the collective agreement until they sign a contract and thus have no voice in those rules.

Normally, it takes the Appeals Court nine to 12 months to hear a case, but ESPN.com's John Clayton says Tuesday's ruling shows an urgency about hearing the merits of the case.

After Scheindlin's ruling, the NFL extended the deadline for underclassmen to declare for the draft to March 1.

Pash said Tuesday that if the league gets a stay, then loses the appeal, it would hold a supplemental draft for Clarett and the others within 10 days of that decision. Those players already have forfeited their college eligibility.

Pash is optimistic.

"I think there is a substantial chance he [Clarett] will not be in the draft," he said. "There have been four or five cases like this over the last 15 years, and the court has always ruled in favor of the sports league."

Pash cited an NBA case in which Leon Wood was ruled ineligible.

Ohio State suspended Clarett before last season for accepting money from a family friend and for lying about it to NCAA and university investigators.

In 2003, he rushed for 1,237 yards and led the Buckeyes to a national championship as a freshman.
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The Amazing Salami
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#2 Posted on 31.3.04 1146.51
Reposted on: 31.3.11 1147.51
So if they turn around and rule they ineligible for the draft, what does that do to guys like Mike Williams (USC). Is he still ineligible to play college since he declared for a draft he cannot participate in?
evilwaldo
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#3 Posted on 31.3.04 1157.58
Reposted on: 31.3.11 1158.29
    Originally posted by The Amazing Salami
    So if they turn around and rule they ineligible for the draft, what does that do to guys like Mike Williams (USC). Is he still ineligible to play college since he declared for a draft he cannot participate in?


Williams would be included in the Supplemental Draft as well.

What I find interesting is that the arguement that Clarett's lawyer is using would invalidate every union contract in America. If you want to enter a union job you have to follow the rules that allow you to enter that job and join the union.
The Amazing Salami
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#4 Posted on 31.3.04 1208.50
Reposted on: 31.3.11 1209.06
    Originally posted by evilwaldo
      Originally posted by The Amazing Salami
      So if they turn around and rule they ineligible for the draft, what does that do to guys like Mike Williams (USC). Is he still ineligible to play college since he declared for a draft he cannot participate in?


    Williams would be included in the Supplemental Draft as well.



But that's only if the current ruling is upheld AFTER the real draft, if I understand it correctly. If the ruling is actually overturned, then what....that was my question.

(edited by The Amazing Salami on 31.3.04 1009)
wmatistic
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#5 Posted on 31.3.04 1220.47
Reposted on: 31.3.11 1221.14
Then if he (Williams, cause really I don't give a damn what happens to Clarett) hired an agent he's pretty much screwed. If not, he can go back and play for USC.
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#6 Posted on 31.3.04 1231.12
Reposted on: 31.3.11 1231.36
How do you deny the man (men) the right to make a living at their chosen profession? I am not in favor of early entry but I don't think it should be illegal.
JayJayDean
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#7 Posted on 31.3.04 1236.33
Reposted on: 31.3.11 1236.39
    Originally posted by The Amazing Salami
    But that's only if the current ruling is upheld AFTER the real draft, if I understand it correctly. If the ruling is actually overturned, then what....that was my question.


The NFL has said that once Williams and Clarett are drafted they are property of the team that drafts them and they will be treated like any other drafted player, meaning they won't be forced to go back to college. The NFL will try to get the law reversed and make future drafts they way they want, with no freshman or sophomores.
wmatistic
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#8 Posted on 31.3.04 1237.42
Reposted on: 31.3.11 1241.34
    Originally posted by DrDirt
    How do you deny the man (men) the right to make a living at their chosen profession? I am not in favor of early entry but I don't think it should be illegal.


I don't see it as denying them just cause. This is the same as if you wanted any other type of job. They require you have certain things like a college degree, or so many years of work experience or whatever they think is needed to be successful at that level. Granted some people can succeed without those credentials, but that doesn't mean they HAVE to be given a chance.

It's called proving yourself and every employer wants it.
Zeruel
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#9 Posted on 31.3.04 1316.04
Reposted on: 31.3.11 1320.16
Also, the NFL isn't the only football league in the country, nor North America for that matter. There are plenty of other leagues he could try out for.
DrDirt
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#10 Posted on 31.3.04 1430.16
Reposted on: 31.3.11 1432.37
    Originally posted by wmatistic
      Originally posted by DrDirt
      How do you deny the man (men) the right to make a living at their chosen profession? I am not in favor of early entry but I don't think it should be illegal.


    I don't see it as denying them just cause. This is the same as if you wanted any other type of job. They require you have certain things like a college degree, or so many years of work experience or whatever they think is needed to be successful at that level. Granted some people can succeed without those credentials, but that doesn't mean they HAVE to be given a chance.

    It's called proving yourself and every employer wants it.


All you need is the ability to play pro ball.

Also rikidozan. You can't compare your ability to earn a salary in the NFL to the AFL or Canada.
wmatistic
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#11 Posted on 31.3.04 1445.01
Reposted on: 31.3.11 1445.25
    Originally posted by DrDirt
    All you need is the ability to play pro ball.




I know some guys right out of high school that are pretty impressive computer programmers, but most big companies won't hire them because they don't have a degree. In other words, they know you can do it but they want you to go prove your work ethic, desire and ability by getting a degree before they'll hire you.

It's the exact same thing. I don't have a right to force a company to hire me if I don't meet their requirments, so why should Clarett?
JayJayDean
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#12 Posted on 31.3.04 1513.13
Reposted on: 31.3.11 1514.14
    Originally posted by DrDirt
    Also rikidozan. You can't compare your ability to earn a salary in the NFL to the AFL or Canada.


Why not? Can you not earn a decent living in the CFL? It may not be the big NFL salary, but if you're good enough in the CFL for a couple of years to warrant a big rookie contract and a bidding war for your services, why wouldn't you go there instead of college?
evilwaldo
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#13 Posted on 31.3.04 1631.03
Reposted on: 31.3.11 1631.09
A great example is an airline pilot. Suppose you want to be an airline pilot. There are specific requirements that airlines want to see before they will even interview you. You can have great skills (great eye-hand coordination, knowledge of the controls, etc.) but if you do not meet the requirements of the airline union and airlines they won't look at you. If there are requirements for the job you have to follow those requirements. You may be a great small plane pilot but if the airlines don't believe you would make a good airline pilot then they won't give you the opportunity.

If Clarett does not meet the requirements then the NFL should not be forced to include him. He can play in the AFL or Canada.
DrDirt
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#14 Posted on 31.3.04 1631.11
Reposted on: 31.3.11 1631.12
    Originally posted by wmatistic
      Originally posted by DrDirt
      All you need is the ability to play pro ball.




    I know some guys right out of high school that are pretty impressive computer programmers, but most big companies won't hire them because they don't have a degree. In other words, they know you can do it but they want you to go prove your work ethic, desire and ability by getting a degree before they'll hire you.

    It's the exact same thing. I don't have a right to force a company to hire me if I don't meet their requirments, so why should Clarett?


Apples and oranges. Plus no one HAS to draft him or anyone else they don't want to. You evaluate the guy, you think he is worth drafting or not and then proceed. I don't like it but it shouldn't be prevented.
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#15 Posted on 1.4.04 0538.38
Reposted on: 1.4.11 0539.40
    Originally posted by wmatistic
    They [employers] require you have certain things like a college degree, or so many years of work experience or whatever they think is needed to be successful at that level.

    Originally posted by evilwaldo
    If there are requirements for the job you have to follow those requirements. You may be a great small plane pilot but if the airlines don't believe you would make a good airline pilot then they won't give you the opportunity.


I agree with the sentiments expressed above and also by others that employers have a right to set legitimate requirements for individuals to meet prior to being hired. If the employer's intent is to insure that they are hiring only those who will best perform for the company, then they have every right to set standards that will maximize the probability that they are hiring the best candidates for the available jobs.

However, a company does not have the right to set job requirements that aren't relevant to the job itself. For example, airlines can't refuse to hire pilots with red hair. You can't deny applicants for a position in computer programming the job because their favorite color is mauve. Likewise, the NFL should not be allowed to deny players the right to enter the draft simply because of their age. As has already been pointed out:

    Originally posted by DrDirt
    All you need is the ability to play pro ball.

Age is irrelevant, at either end of the spectrum. The NFL would be just as wrong if it were to try to implement a rule that all players must retire once they reach the age of thirty.
Even more to the point, let's not lose sight of what this is really all about. The NFL's intent here isn't to keep out people who don't have the ability to play in their league. Rather, the NFL is doing everything it can to preserve their free minor league player development system (i.e., NCAA Football). So let's not kid ourselves over what the NFL's real motivation is in continuing to persue this matter in the courts.
Grimis
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#16 Posted on 1.4.04 0856.51
Reposted on: 1.4.11 0858.10
    Originally posted by Downtown Bookie
    However, a company does not have the right to set job requirements that aren't relevant to the job itself. For example, airlines can't refuse to hire pilots with red hair. You can't deny applicants for a position in computer programming the job because their favorite color is mauve. Likewise, the NFL should not be allowed to deny players the right to enter the draft simply because of their age.
But who says it is not relevant to the job? Who makes that determination? Are 18-year old football player physically or emotionally mature enough to play at this level?

Just saying.
The Amazing Salami
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#17 Posted on 1.4.04 0902.29
Reposted on: 1.4.11 0903.06
    Originally posted by Grimis
      Originally posted by Downtown Bookie
      However, a company does not have the right to set job requirements that aren't relevant to the job itself. For example, airlines can't refuse to hire pilots with red hair. You can't deny applicants for a position in computer programming the job because their favorite color is mauve. Likewise, the NFL should not be allowed to deny players the right to enter the draft simply because of their age.
    But who says it is not relevant to the job? Who makes that determination? Are 18-year old football player physically or emotionally mature enough to play at this level?

    Just saying.


Some are and some aren't. Just like some red heads would make good pilots and some wouldn't. The point is, the decision should be made on an case-by-case basis, not because of a generalizing rule. And the determination is made by the team investing in the player.
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#18 Posted on 1.4.04 1203.49
Reposted on: 1.4.11 1203.52
    Originally posted by Grimis
      Originally posted by Downtown Bookie
      However, a company does not have the right to set job requirements that aren't relevant to the job itself. For example, airlines can't refuse to hire pilots with red hair. You can't deny applicants for a position in computer programming the job because their favorite color is mauve. Likewise, the NFL should not be allowed to deny players the right to enter the draft simply because of their age.
    But who says it is not relevant to the job? Who makes that determination? Are 18-year old football player physically or emotionally mature enough to play at this level?

    Just saying.

Possibly emotionally, but highly doubtful physically. A player coming out of high school directly to the NFL would get *killed*. He'd have to ride the pine for a minimum of 1 - 2 years before he'd be anywhere near ready to compete for a job. Would a team be willing to tie up a roster spot for that long in a guy who may not even be able to make it in the league?
dMr
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#19 Posted on 2.4.04 1115.02
Reposted on: 2.4.11 1115.33
    Originally posted by Downtown Bookie
    Age is irrelevant, at either end of the spectrum. The NFL would be just as wrong if it were to try to implement a rule that all players must retire once they reach the age of thirty.


But as far as I understand, the ruling makes no mention of age, but of years at college. The fact that a certain age is implied by having been to college for a certain time is irrelevant.

When a company says it'll only take on university graduates, that may exclude the overwhelming majority of people under, say 20, but their age is not the primary reason for their exclusion. Their experience is.

I can see the case for why the NFL has to play 'Big Brother'in this instance. In my opinion the vast majority of 18/19 year olds would get torn apart when they got to the NFL. Heck most guys struggle in their first season as it is but at least they're a bit more emotionally equipped to deal with the flak that comes their way when things go wrong.

I'm sure some would be able to cope all right, and equally some pilots would be just dandy in control of a plane before they had completed all of the relevant training. But I don't think many people would be too chuffed if an airline was able to 'take a chance' on a guy who was officially unqualified because they still felt he was good enough.

You can see examples of it in soccer right now. Michael Owen (Liverpool/England) was playing top flight football by the time he was 17 and was asked to play a ridiculous number of games under enormous pressure. Now he's struggling with persistent hamstring/groin injuries, and when he does play he's not nearly effective as he was 4 years ago.

Ronaldo was also thrust into the limelight at an early age culminating in him having a fit prior to the final on France '98 (a game he was still made to play in). While his careers back on track now he had to fight injuries for a good 2/3 years to get there.

Sometimes players need to be protected from themselves, and from teams hoping to get short term benefit from them without thought for long term consequences.
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#20 Posted on 2.4.04 1153.02
Reposted on: 2.4.11 1159.01
Emotionally and mentally an 18 or 19 year old is not ready for the NFL. Chances are that person was coddled through high school and playing against competition where he was the fasted or biggest player on the field. When they come up to the college level everyone is bigger and faster than the people they played with in high school. In addition, they probably don't get to go home to mom and dad when there is a problem or they had a rough day. Talking on the phone and seeing the people in person are two different things. They have a guaranteed scholarship so there is a safety net there. In high school, if they played a skill position, the playbook was built around them. Go to college and they don't have that luxury.

Now try to make the jump to the professional level. No guaranteed contracts or safety net, nobody coddling them, friends wanting to hang out but the coaching staff pushing them to hit the weightroom, everyone is clearly bigger and faster than they are, and all of a sudden they need to learn to watch film 3 or 4 hours a day. Add to that a coach who is getting paid a couple of million dollars a year to win and is going to push that kid achieve now because his job is on the line.

Kids out of high school are not ready for that. The problem is that they see the fat contracts other sports stars get and figure that they want a piece of the pie.
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