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The 7 - Football - Ex-Notre Dame player: "We need the black athlete"
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Alessandro
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#1 Posted on 31.3.04 0724.34
Reposted on: 31.3.11 0725.27
http://sports.espn.go.com/ ncf/news/story?id=1772368

Tuesday, March 30, 2004
Ex-Irish great says school can't compete
ESPN.com news services

Former Notre Dame great Paul Hornung may have landed in some hot water when discussing how the Irish can improve their football fortunes.

Hornung told Detroit's AM-1270 The Sports Station (an ESPN radio affiliate) on Tuesday that Notre Dame must ease up on its academic restrictions because "We gotta get the black athlete," he said. "We must get the black athlete if we're going to compete."

Hornung said that Notre Dame's schedule factors into his opinion.

"You can't play that type of schedule," Hornung said. "We're playing eight bowl teams next year ... and it's always year in and year out ... one of the toughest schedules.

"You can't play a schedule like that unless you have the black athlete today. You just can't do it, and it's very, very tough, still, to get into Notre Dame. They just don't understand it, yet they want to win."

Hornung also added that Notre Dame, which in January signed a new five-year agreement with NBC to televise its home football games, probably will lose the contract -- worth about $9 million annually -- if the school doesn't start winning more games.

Last season, Notre Dame finished at 5-7, the third losing season in five years -- something that had never happened in the storied history of the program.

The losing season contributed to low ratings on NBC -- just a 2.4 rating per game, tied with 2001 for the lowest in the school's 13 years on the network.

Hornung is the only Heisman Trophy winner to play for a losing team: His 1956 Notre Dame team went 2-8.


So basically, this guy is saying that black students are too "stupid" to get into Notre Dame, so the college has to make things easier for them in order to win football games rather than, oh I don't know, EDUCATE ITS STUDENTS AND MAKE THEM PRODUCTIVE MEMBERS OF SOCIETY (since we all know that college is all about playing sports, that's the only important thing going on at college campuses these days) ... Is that the gist of what's being said here?

Hmm, I wonder how Tyrone Willingham feels about that statement ...

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The Thrill
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#2 Posted on 31.3.04 0753.59
Reposted on: 31.3.11 0754.21
That's just...wow.

I've interviewed Paul before, and I've never gotten that kind of vibe from him. I hope he didn't mean it the way it came across...yikes.

Naturally, this comes as I was trying to buy a Hornung jersey on Ebay...oops, got outbid huge. Damn.

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CRZ
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#3 Posted on 31.3.04 1947.49
Reposted on: 31.3.11 1949.48
Hornung was booked on the Tony Bruno show this morning and essentially repeated himself. Tony's site seems to be down (probably due to a DIFFERENT controversy - Tony frankly discussing his contract situations (Google cache at www.tonybrunoshow.com&hl=en&ie=UTF-8" TARGET="_blank">http://www.google.com/ search?q=cache:RvjTkq2AR4EJ :www.tonybrunoshow.com& hl=en& ie=UTF-8) but maybe if it comes back up tonight or tomorrow there'll be mention made there. Google News doesn't mention this morning's addition in any online newspaper story, but that might ALSO be waiting for tomorrow's editions. Or maybe I'm the only guy listening to Tony Bruno in the morning. ;-)

(edited by CRZ on 31.3.04 1751)
redsoxnation
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#4 Posted on 31.3.04 2118.58
Reposted on: 31.3.11 2120.03
Hornung's mistake was interjecting race: Notre Dame just needs athletes, and if they are going to keep high standards, they aren't going to get the stud offensive linemen, the killer middle linebacker, or the game-breaking receiver, whether they be white, black or purple. For proof of the lack of these and other talented players, watch the Michigan, Florida State and Southern Cal games from this past season. They were disgraceful, close to the point of the Miami fiasco in '85 that finally rid us of Faust, brought in Holtz, and caused the administration to bend the standards slightly. Funny how Notre Dame won 1 National Title and finshed #2 (although I still dispute '93, as Florida State had an ineligible player, thus should have been stripped of the National Title. Plus, it was a phantom block in the back call on the kick-off return after Notre Dame came from 3 touchdowns down against Boston College.) two other times during this time period after the years of wandering through the abyss with Gerry 'Throw the Bomb' Faust. Hornung is from the historical Notre Dame tradition, where 8-4 is a disgraceful season, let alone 5-7 and a pair of shutout losses. And, as someone who still takes pride in being rejected by Notre Dame's doctoral program, I agree with Hornung in this belief.

(edited by redsoxnation on 31.3.04 2220)
ges7184
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#5 Posted on 31.3.04 2318.28
Reposted on: 31.3.11 2319.22
But didn't Notre Dame win that National Title under the same academic standards that they have in place now?
StaggerLee
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#6 Posted on 1.4.04 0208.34
Reposted on: 1.4.11 0209.41
Paul said they need "THE black athlete". Which one is THE one?
Alessandro
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#7 Posted on 1.4.04 0655.35
Reposted on: 1.4.11 0657.21
But why should Notre Dame be forced to drop their academic standards for ANY athlete (regardless of race)? It is a college, after all, NOT a minor league sports franchise ...





(edited by Alessandro on 1.4.04 0756)
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#8 Posted on 1.4.04 1544.24
Reposted on: 1.4.11 1545.32
Hornung also added that Notre Dame, which in January signed a new five-year agreement with NBC to televise its home football games, probably will lose the contract -- worth about $9 million annually -- if the school doesn't start winning more games.

Ding ding ding! We have a winner!

-Jag
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#9 Posted on 1.4.04 1553.08
Reposted on: 1.4.11 1555.36
I agree with Hornung in principle.

What the heck would lowering the admittance standards hurt?

Seems like to me you would have to be pretty smart to FINISH the Notre Dame program, regardless of how astute you were when you STARTED the program.

In short, the admittance standards can be lowered as long as the exit standards are not, and to me, that would leave the value of a Notre Dame education in the exact same place it is today.

If anything, it would RAISE the value. If your faculty could take a guy who didn't achieve a whole lot academically and turn him into someone intelligent enough to graduate from Notre Dame, well, that's saying something.

All that being said, the racial issue has nothing to do with any of this and has no place in the argument.
Dutchie
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#10 Posted on 1.4.04 1700.17
Reposted on: 1.4.11 1701.37
In short, the admittance standards can be lowered as long as the exit standards are not, and to me, that would leave the value of a Notre Dame education in the exact same place it is today.

How do you apply exit standards to someone who turns pro after his junior year? The value of a Notre Dame education, in this instance, would be that Notre Dame was a great vehicle for this athlete to kill three years (or less, apparently) until he could turn pro.

There's nothing that says the killer MLB can't also be a pretty decent kinesiology major, or that the stud O-lineman can't get his Bachelor's in secondary education. Take a look at the NCAA's admission standards for student athletes here, and the Notre Dame Student Athlete Academic requirements here. It's not like they're saying a student athlete must be valedictorian of his/her class, or keep up a 3.9 GPA at all times. They are attainable stats, possibly with some effort. That's a given for any college student, athlete or not.

That said, isn't there already some caveat to admission standards for athletes, Proposition something or other, where an athlete who doesn't meet admission requirements is admitted, provided they maintain a higher GPA and graduate within a certain number of semesters in order to keep their scholarship and athletic eligibility?
JayJayDean
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#11 Posted on 1.4.04 1709.23
Reposted on: 1.4.11 1710.32
    Originally posted by StegDutchie
    That said, isn't there already some caveat to admission standards for athletes, Proposition something or other, where an athlete who doesn't meet admission requirements is admitted, provided they maintain a higher GPA and graduate within a certain number of semesters in order to keep their scholarship and athletic eligibility?


Proposition 48 is for partial qualifiers, who either reach the GPA standard OR the required standardized test score, but not both. It requires the athlete in question to forfeit his first year of eligibility, with the condition that if he/she graduates in four years they will get that year back as a fifth-year senior. Not every school allows partial qualifiers.
bash91
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#12 Posted on 1.4.04 1912.28
Reposted on: 1.4.11 1912.30
Flipping back to Hornung for a moment, tonight's Sportscenter made it pretty clear that this isn't the first time that Hornung has come out and made these kinds of racist statements, it's merely the first time he's made national news for his particular brand of racist idiocy. Of course, he's a Notre Dame graduate so I shouldn't be surprised.

    Originally posted by The Amazing Salami
    Seems like to me you would have to be pretty smart to FINISH the Notre Dame program, regardless of how astute you were when you STARTED the program.


Not really. Most of us who aren't Catholic and lived in Indiana would rate Notre Dame as no better than second or third among the Division One schools in the state and no better than fifth or sixth among all schools in the state. JMODO

Tim


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#13 Posted on 1.4.04 2103.53
Reposted on: 1.4.11 2104.08
Notre Dame coach Tyrone Willingham dismissed comments by former Heisman Trophy winner Paul Hornung that the school needs to lower its academic standards to admit more black athletes.



"I believe the things that were said really have no merit, so therefore they deserve no real comment from me," Willingham said after spring practice Thursday. "Let's move forward."



In a radio interview Tuesday, Hornung said that Notre Dame needs to lower its academic standards to "get the black athlete." The next day, Hornung said he was wrong and should have said the university needs to lower its standards to get better athletes in general.



Notre Dame spokesman Matthew Storin said in a statement Wednesday that the 1956 Heisman winner was an illustrious alumnus, but that his comments were "generally insensitive and specifically insulting to our past and current African-American student-athletes."



Willingham, Notre Dame's first black head coach in any sport, on Thursday declined to answer further questions about Hornung or whether Notre Dame needs to change its academic standards. In the past he has said there is no need for the school to change its academic standards.



Linebacker Brandon Hoyte, who is black, said he was surprised by Hornung's comments.



"I think regardless of who says it, whenever you hear a comment like that you're always overtaken and you're always shocked," he said.




The Thrill
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#14 Posted on 2.4.04 0812.13
Reposted on: 2.4.11 0814.14
Paul has apologized (AP) for his comments, saying he didn't mean just one racial category of talented athletes who can't currently clear the bar at Notre Dame.

Speaking at an awards dinner in De Pere (WBAY-TV...my employer) (suburb of Titletown, USA) last night, Hornung's teammate during the Lombardi years, guard Jerry Kramer (who should be in the Pro Football Hall of Fame, dammit!), said he's never seen a racist side to Paul.

To see/hear his comments, go to the front page of WBAY.com, and click on the right-hand sidebar link that says: (image removed) Lee Remmel Sports Award Banquet: LIVE on Action 2 News at Six. That should trigger our website's video player.

Sorry I can't link to it directly; it's a Javascript thing and won't open right. At least not for me...but I dunno a damn thing about Javascript. Fancy-schmancy Internet contraptions...
ges7184
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#15 Posted on 2.4.04 1916.32
Reposted on: 2.4.11 1919.48
    Originally posted by The Amazing Salami
    I agree with Hornung in principle.

    What the heck would lowering the admittance standards hurt?

    Seems like to me you would have to be pretty smart to FINISH the Notre Dame program, regardless of how astute you were when you STARTED the program.

    In short, the admittance standards can be lowered as long as the exit standards are not, and to me, that would leave the value of a Notre Dame education in the exact same place it is today.

    If anything, it would RAISE the value. If your faculty could take a guy who didn't achieve a whole lot academically and turn him into someone intelligent enough to graduate from Notre Dame, well, that's saying something.

    All that being said, the racial issue has nothing to do with any of this and has no place in the argument.


With that logic, why have admittance standards at all?

And why set up people to fail? Why pretend that somebody has the aptitude to graduate from Notre Dame when they simply don't? And why should the institution waste resources on that person? You know, you can still get a great education from other institutions that are less demanding. And considering that is all the payment the player is going to receive for playing, it would make more sense to give that player an opportunity that they actually can have a chance to take advantage of.

If you lower the entrance standard without lowering the exit standards, you are pretty much knowingly just using these guys to advance your own agenda, not doing the players any favors.
JLids12
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#16 Posted on 3.4.04 1050.00
Reposted on: 3.4.11 1050.18
    Originally posted by Alessandro
    But why should Notre Dame be forced to drop their academic standards for ANY athlete (regardless of race)? It is a college, after all, NOT a minor league sports franchise ...





    (edited by Alessandro on 1.4.04 0756)


It may not be a minor league sports franchise, (though they draw a ton more money) but 99 percent of the athletes aren't on scholoarship for their grades; they're on scholarship so they can play sports, and if they happen to get an education? Well, more power to them.
The Amazing Salami
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#17 Posted on 5.4.04 0839.02
Reposted on: 5.4.11 0839.49
    Originally posted by ges7184
      Originally posted by The Amazing Salami
      I agree with Hornung in principle.

      What the heck would lowering the admittance standards hurt?

      Seems like to me you would have to be pretty smart to FINISH the Notre Dame program, regardless of how astute you were when you STARTED the program.

      In short, the admittance standards can be lowered as long as the exit standards are not, and to me, that would leave the value of a Notre Dame education in the exact same place it is today.

      If anything, it would RAISE the value. If your faculty could take a guy who didn't achieve a whole lot academically and turn him into someone intelligent enough to graduate from Notre Dame, well, that's saying something.

      All that being said, the racial issue has nothing to do with any of this and has no place in the argument.


    With that logic, why have admittance standards at all?

    And why set up people to fail? Why pretend that somebody has the aptitude to graduate from Notre Dame when they simply don't? And why should the institution waste resources on that person? You know, you can still get a great education from other institutions that are less demanding. And considering that is all the payment the player is going to receive for playing, it would make more sense to give that player an opportunity that they actually can have a chance to take advantage of.

    If you lower the entrance standard without lowering the exit standards, you are pretty much knowingly just using these guys to advance your own agenda, not doing the players any favors.



I should have further qualified my statements by saying IF the university actually DOES want to pick up a few athletes that otherwise would have been unable to attend, I don't see where it would devalue the NOTRE DAME EDUCATION (tm) all that much.

So yeah, using these players to further your own agenda is pretty much what I'm talking about. Is there really any other way to view big time college football? Realistically?
Lexus
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#18 Posted on 10.4.04 0030.14
Reposted on: 10.4.11 0032.04
Wow, another person who was an inspiration on the playing feild reveals themselves and people get confused and frightened.

This guy has been lacing up since prior to the Civil Rights Movement, and probably played on few teams in which there was a single player that was not white. Perhaps for Hornung, these statements are actually progressive. I doubt highly he understands he's being insensitive.
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