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The 7 - Current Events & Politics - AP: Israel Kills Hamas Founder Register and log in to post!
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PalpatineW
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#1 Posted on 22.3.04 0221.47
Reposted on: 22.3.11 0224.46
http://apnews.myway.com/ article/20040322/D81F6VR00.html

And reactions from Hamas fellas:

http://www.haaretz.com/ hasen/spages/407399.html

This is, to say the least, an interesting development. The man very likely deserved death, leading, as he was, a rather vile group of terrorists. Damned if I know what will happen next, though. Can we expect Hamas to go all-out in revenge? They may be enraged, but I can't believe they'd step it up on Israel THAT much. It's definitely not in Hamas' best interests to arouse the full military might of Israel; I'd think they have their hands full with current occupational forces.

This is a tangent all its own, but what does this say about the Palestinian Authority, that they declare a period of mourning for this guy's death? You salute a man who blows up school buses by proxy? Can you negotiate with a government who salutes such men?
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Grimis
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#2 Posted on 22.3.04 0624.05
Reposted on: 22.3.11 0624.05
It sounds like this is everything short of total war. The Egyptians canceled visits to Israel, while the Palestinian Authority is calling for more suicide bombers.

Oh: they say we gave the greenlight for this, so we are not out of the woods either.
The Thrill
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#3 Posted on 22.3.04 0806.01
Reposted on: 22.3.11 0813.15
Where's the MSG crowd's "Na Na Na Na, Na Na Na Na, Hey Hey Hey, Goodbye" when you need it?

So long, asshole. Have fun rotting in hell, you terrorist son of a bitch. Here's hoping your chair down there has square wheels...and that the Mossad sends you a bunch more of your friends to keep you company.

And we've heard rhetoric like this from those dynamite-vest-wearing idiots before...they'll unfortunately step up the suicide bombing for a couple of weeks, and then it'll drop back down to its usual rate. They can't engage the Israeli military in a proper military battle, so guerilla warfare and terrorism is all they have left. Too bad...I'd love to see Israel wipe 'em all out in one fell swoop.

The only good member of Hamas is a dead member of Hamas.
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#4 Posted on 22.3.04 0825.40
Reposted on: 22.3.11 0825.47
This appears to be a hopeless situation. IMO, there is nothing Israel can do to stop this short of genocide and I doubt that would work as some othe group would step forward. I weep for the innocents on both sides and there are plenty. BTW, I am not advocating genocide, merely trying to point out how helpless it must feel to live there. The violence from both sides sems to merely create more rabid zealots on both sides and the people seeking peace are ignored.

And how can the Palestinian Authority claim legitimacy while declaring a day of mourning?
AWArulz
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#5 Posted on 22.3.04 0829.01
Reposted on: 22.3.11 0829.01
    Originally posted by The Thrill
    The only good member of Hamas is a dead member of Hamas.


Gosh, Thrill - I am as down on terrorists as the next guy, but this reminds me of some old John Ford movie - I knew as soon as some guy said that, that John Wayne was sure to plug him pretty soon.
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#6 Posted on 22.3.04 1101.26
Reposted on: 22.3.11 1104.50
Not to defend either the P.A. or Hamas, but you have to keep in mind re: the day of mourning that inside the Palestinian community Hamas is much more than simply a terror organization. They are also extremely integrated into the social fabric as a social services organization, as noted in a Time article from 2001:

"But one of the keys to Hamas's popularity is its large-scale welfare arm. Hamas provides educational, medical and other desperately needed welfare services in impoverished West Bank and Gaza towns and refugee camps, creating a marked contrast with the image of corruption and cronyism most Palestinians have of Arafat's administration. The welfare arm also cares for the families of suicide bombers and others who have died fighting the Israelis, making suicide bombing a macabre form of life insurance in impoverished Palestinian communities. The social services performed by Hamas also create a pretext for the massive funding the organization receives from Muslim charities throughout the Persian Gulf and beyond.

As an outsider I can agree that their actions are abhorrent, but inside the community I have to believe the perspective would be different. Not only has Israel killed someone who they believed was fighting for them, but attacked the leader of a group who provides life support for many Palestinians. Not hard to see in that context why the P.A. would take actions to indicate solidarity with them. Doesn't make it right from where we sit, or even objectively right if you like such terms, but I don't think it incomprehensible.
DrDirt
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#7 Posted on 22.3.04 1102.33
Reposted on: 22.3.11 1105.26
    Originally posted by AWArulz
      Originally posted by The Thrill
      The only good member of Hamas is a dead member of Hamas.


    Gosh, Thrill - I am as down on terrorists as the next guy, but this reminds me of some old John Ford movie - I knew as soon as some guy said that, that John Wayne was sure to plug him pretty soon.



You know the psa's where they say no one says they want to be a drug addict when they grow up. No one is born a terrorist. I understand the sentiment but the visceral kneejerk hatred has to stop. It reinforces how much courage it took for the Camp David Accord to be reached. It cost Sadat his life because this hatred is so ingrained.

Will there ever come a day when leaders on both sides are willing to risk all and say it stops now?
Von Maestro
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#8 Posted on 22.3.04 1141.34
Reposted on: 22.3.11 1145.28
    Originally posted by DrDirt
    Will there ever come a day when leaders on both sides are willing to risk all and say it stops now?


Doc-
I don't think it has anything to do with "leaders on both sides" saying it needs to stop. Something someone said to me a few years back is as true now as it was then:
"If the Arabs would lay down their arms, there would be peace. If Israel would lay down their arms, there would be no Israel."

It just takes one side to stop the attacks & there would be peace in the region...
DrDirt
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#9 Posted on 22.3.04 1151.17
Reposted on: 22.3.11 1152.11
    Originally posted by Von Maestro
      Originally posted by DrDirt
      Will there ever come a day when leaders on both sides are willing to risk all and say it stops now?


    Doc-
    I don't think it has anything to do with "leaders on both sides" saying it needs to stop. Something someone said to me a few years back is as true now as it was then:
    "If the Arabs would lay down their arms, there would be peace. If Israel would lay down their arms, there would be no Israel."

    It just takes one side to stop the attacks & there would be peace in the region...


This has gone on for so long that I don't know if anything can work. This, like other emotional issues, defies rational discourse. I defend Israels absolute right to exist in peace but I also think the Palestinians have legitimate greviences. Not only with Israel but with their Arab bretheren. That last sentence, although stated dispassionately is cerain to inflame Zionists and Arabs.
Grimis
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#10 Posted on 22.3.04 1542.52
Reposted on: 22.3.11 1544.37
    Originally posted by DrDirt
    This has gone on for so long that I don't know if anything can work.
Especically when they are egged on by western nuts that James Lileks dissects here.

Check out the picture and be proud of your fellow Americans....

EDIT: And then there is this blog entry from a counterprotest against the front lines of the ANSWER protests:

Well, it was a tough day of counter protesting but we made it through with hardly a scratch! Some of the peace marchers tended toward violence and they did not like it one little bit that we crashed their whacked out party. Unfortunately, some in our group were attacked, actually a couple of times. I didn't know that peace marchers would think to "put a bullet in your head", but I guess that's how uninformed I am about peace. If I didn't think I might get stomped to death I would have suggested that the peace marcher join the Army! They need guys that want to put bullets in people's heads.

At one point things got really pretty dicey as one of my fellow protest warriors was being choked right there in the middle of the street and the NYPD came in and rescued us! They corralled us into a bull pen sort of place and protected us from the peace marchers... Then, they assigned a scooter brigade to guard us while we expressed our right of free speech. My poor sainted husband, who I talked into coming with me was being shoved and screamed at by the ANSWER security squad (brown shirts) and he remarked that we have free speech in the U.S. to which the goon screamed in return "there is no fuckin free speech". I think this would come as a surprise to the thousands of police officers that were assigned to this march in order for people to exercise their right to assembly and free speech. But then, maybe we are just confused.

While in the police bullpen one of the big wig officers came up to me and said under his breath "I can't say this in public but we love you guys, we wish you would turn out more often". I told him the problem was that we have jobs and therefore our time is somewhat limited.


(edited by Grimis on 22.3.04 1645)
PalpatineW
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#11 Posted on 22.3.04 1546.56
Reposted on: 22.3.11 1547.00
The thing that honestly scares me about all this is the way some in the West are just rolling over. Reportedly, an al-Qaeda connected group is calling for revenge on the United States because of this killing. (Link: http://news.myway.com/ top/article/id/392768|top|03- 22-2004::15:11|reuters.html)

And yet the UK condems the killing of Yassin, the US is "troubled," and the EU invokes that tired specter "international law." If the terrorists are annoyed that Yassin is dead, why aren't we pleased? Why does the West shed tears for terrorists and terrorist sympathizers? Do people think that screaming and carrying placards will keep them safe from some jackass blowing up the rail system in their country?

People may not think that Iraq was a vital part of the war on terror, and they may, eventually, be found correct. Maybe it was a lesser link in the war on terror. But the connection between all of these things, between Iraq, al-Qaeda, the Madrid bombings, must be apparent. We in the U.S. don't have any current hostilities with Hamas, but we must take common cause with those who do. All of these people are on the same team; there is a great solidarity among the Islamist murdereres, but seemingly very little among Western-style democracies. Spain wishes to appease. The citizens of Europe seem to think we can ignore terrorism and it will go away. Even the United States condemns Israel for killing Yassin, when Yassin is more or less their Osama; the founder, leader and figurehead of a terrorist organization that has killed thousands of innocent Israelis. To paraphrase Churchill, feeding the alligator only ensures that you will be the last thing to wind up in its stomach.
spf
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#12 Posted on 22.3.04 1556.26
Reposted on: 22.3.11 1556.51
    Originally posted by PalpatineW
    We in the U.S. don't have any current hostilities with Hamas, but we must take common cause with those who do.


Why?

I mean seriously, when you remove all the moral and ethical concerns aside, why the hell should we arouse enemies who until now have basically made their policy not to fight us? Perhaps it's our common cause that creates so many problems for us. I find myself having to question exactly what it is that keeps us from saying "we no longer care who kills who in the Middle East, we're getting the hell out of here." I really cannot see the reasons for staying any longer in that region. Maybe I'm becoming jaded, but I'm starting to feel like I don't care what happens to anyone else, as long as we're not involved.
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#13 Posted on 22.3.04 1623.43
Reposted on: 22.3.11 1624.03
    Originally posted by spf2119
      Originally posted by PalpatineW
      We in the U.S. don't have any current hostilities with Hamas, but we must take common cause with those who do.


    Why?

    I mean seriously, when you remove all the moral and ethical concerns aside, why the hell should we arouse enemies who until now have basically made their policy not to fight us? Perhaps it's our common cause that creates so many problems for us. I find myself having to question exactly what it is that keeps us from saying "we no longer care who kills who in the Middle East, we're getting the hell out of here." I really cannot see the reasons for staying any longer in that region. Maybe I'm becoming jaded, but I'm starting to feel like I don't care what happens to anyone else, as long as we're not involved.


Looks like we have common cause now. Hamas has now said it will attack the U.S. I am glad we are safer now then a year ago or I would be worried.
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#14 Posted on 22.3.04 1631.45
Reposted on: 22.3.11 1632.01
    Originally posted by DrDirt
      Originally posted by spf2119
        Originally posted by PalpatineW
        We in the U.S. don't have any current hostilities with Hamas, but we must take common cause with those who do.


      Why?

      I mean seriously, when you remove all the moral and ethical concerns aside, why the hell should we arouse enemies who until now have basically made their policy not to fight us? Perhaps it's our common cause that creates so many problems for us. I find myself having to question exactly what it is that keeps us from saying "we no longer care who kills who in the Middle East, we're getting the hell out of here." I really cannot see the reasons for staying any longer in that region. Maybe I'm becoming jaded, but I'm starting to feel like I don't care what happens to anyone else, as long as we're not involved.


    Looks like we have common cause now. Hamas has now said it will attack the U.S. I am glad we are safer now then a year ago or I would be worried.







Iran used to declare war on the U.S. every other day before Khomeni took the dirt nap, so Hamas' declaration isn't a huge shock. Hell, at this point, the Iranians might be the sanest group in that region, which actually scares the hell out of me now that I think about it. If only the will of those Florida voters had been followed and Pat Buchanan elected President, none of this would be occurring today.
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#15 Posted on 22.3.04 1733.53
Reposted on: 22.3.11 1735.05
These people are like kids fighting at the playground. The United States is Israels big brother and all of Islam is Palestine's friends. The big brother is there making sure that his kid brother doesn't get to hurt, he just wants his bro to see another day. Islam on many different levels is cheering on the Palestinians, also making sure their friend sees another day. Meanwhile there is not an adult to be seen to break up this playground fight.

NATO and the allies made this country Israel and they are the parents of at least one of the kids in this fight. When they made that country they also made the area around it and therefore are the only parents or adults to stop these kids from fighting.

If they can't go in there and say stop, this is the boarder right here. No more settlements, get the hell out of Palestine and don't start anything. You stay over here and they will stay over there. Widen the the area between these kids and patrol it.

Replace the occupation forces of Israel and bring in real aid and unbiased attention to both sides. A no fly zone for Israel and a hard target search for Palestine, shoulder to shoulder, border to boarder. to disarm these kids.

Just fucking do it be and be a fucking adult.
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#16 Posted on 22.3.04 1803.28
Reposted on: 22.3.11 1806.15
    Originally posted by spf2119
      Originally posted by PalpatineW
      We in the U.S. don't have any current hostilities with Hamas, but we must take common cause with those who do.


    Why?

    I mean seriously, when you remove all the moral and ethical concerns aside, why the hell should we arouse enemies who until now have basically made their policy not to fight us? Perhaps it's our common cause that creates so many problems for us. I find myself having to question exactly what it is that keeps us from saying "we no longer care who kills who in the Middle East, we're getting the hell out of here." I really cannot see the reasons for staying any longer in that region. Maybe I'm becoming jaded, but I'm starting to feel like I don't care what happens to anyone else, as long as we're not involved.


Because our enemies are one and the same; the people that murder Jews and the people that murder Americans are simply, in their eyes, fighting different fronts of the same war. We won't defeat them unless we adopt the same mentality.
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#17 Posted on 23.3.04 0749.31
Reposted on: 23.3.11 0753.29
    Originally posted by Maniac
    NATO and the allies made this country Israel and they are the parents of at least one of the kids in this fight. When they made that country they also made the area around it and therefore are the only parents or adults to stop these kids from fighting.


Uh, no.

Israel existed as its own nation (or perhaps more accurately, a loose confederation) in biblical times, first really setting up shop between 1800 and 1500 B.C. The Arabs didn't get to Israel until they invaded sometime after 600 A.D.

So the original fault with "this fight" lies with the Arabs who tried to muscle in 1400 years ago, and whose descendants are ticked off that the original landowners don't wanna go anywhere, and don't practice Islam. So naturally, they wanna wipe 'em out. Nice.

Considering they're surrounded by hostile neighbors everywhere except the sea, who've sworn to drive the Israeli nation out of existence, I don't blame Tel Aviv one bit for keeping a strong military presence, and having the courage to KILL TERRORISTS. And if Hamas is pissed at that, that makes them the BAD GUYS. Humanitarian aid notwithstanding...shoring up infrastructure doesn't exactly excuse you from repeated murders.

Wanna know more? Click here! (Mideast Web)


    Originally posted by DrDirt
    You know the psa's where they say no one says they want to be a drug addict when they grow up. No one is born a terrorist.


Really? The Palestinians sure train 'em young. (Betar-Tagar UK) Hell, they even run schools for it. (BBC News) And now even Muslim kids in the UK can get into the act! (The Sun) Even as young as 11 years old. (Guardian Unlimited)

If the Palestinians want peace and a piece of Israel (again, that they really have no right to) for a homeland, they have got to stop with the terrorist attacks. It ain't gonna drive Israel to submit to their terms, it's just gonna harden their resolve. Otherwise, feel free to have your sorry selves continue to get blasted away by helicopters with pretty blue 6-pointed stars on the sides.

(EDIT: Good for them...Israel says they ain't done yet! (Associated Press/Yahoo! News))

Arab terrorists piss me off...in case you couldn't tell.

(edited by The Thrill on 23.3.04 0905)
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#18 Posted on 23.3.04 0843.05
Reposted on: 23.3.11 0843.06
Maniac, overall the Arab community is using the Palestinians. Before this became a cause celeb within the Arab world, the Palestinians were the bastard step-children of that region. They were passed around and even thrown out of Jordan. The Palestinians are simply a pawn in the larger context of the struggle against Israel.
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#19 Posted on 23.3.04 0914.52
Reposted on: 23.3.11 0916.06
    Originally posted by DrDirt
    Maniac, overall the Arab community is using the Palestinians. Before this became a cause celeb within the Arab world, the Palestinians were the bastard step-children of that region. They were passed around and even thrown out of Jordan. The Palestinians are simply a pawn in the larger context of the struggle against Israel.


But Doc, that doesn't mitigate their guilt in this - they could back down and give in and live and let live. For better or worse, that's what happens when a stronger power exists.

Thrill mentioned earlier that an only good member of Hamas was a dead member of Hamas. I think it's an apt analogy. From about 1820 until 1900, we had our own issues with a local minority that resented us moving into what they consiered "their" lands. And we fought, back and forth, for 80 years (and more - it just was only hard fighting for about 30 years).

The difference: they (and to a lesser extent, we) fought fair. We fought each other's armies, for the most part. Sure, both sides attacked villages from time to time, but most of the fighting was between organized military groups - armies on the side of the USA and mostly smaller organized groups on the side of the Indians.

and now? I can't think about it, I am due at the Casino...

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#20 Posted on 23.3.04 1126.36
Reposted on: 23.3.11 1129.01
AWA, they have guilt in this, alot. My point was that in reality most of the ARab community in the area could care less about the plight of the Palestinians.

Unfortunately today, this is fighting fair to much of the world.
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