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The 7 - Current Events & Politics - France doing it's part to preserve the world for Democracy
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Grimis
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#1 Posted on 16.3.04 0719.12
Reposted on: 16.3.11 0719.30
It's really getting to the point where I have to question if France is an ally or not. Of course, they can't really build a carrier so perhaps I shouldn't worry......

* * * * *

China, France Hold Naval Drill Before Taiwan Vote
Mon Mar 15, 2004 02:13 AM ET
By Benjamin Kang Lim

BEIJING (Reuters) - China and France will hold rare joint naval exercises off the mainland's eastern coast on Tuesday, just four days before Beijing's rival, Taiwan, holds presidential elections.

China's official Xinhua news agency made no link between the exercises off Qingdao -- about 780 miles from Taiwan's northernmost point -- and the election.

But the show of military strength and solidarity signaled China's desire to isolate the self-governing island before the vote and its first-ever referendum, which Beijing views as a provocative step toward independence.

"It's the biggest in scale and the most substantial in content of an exercise between the Chinese navy and a foreign navy," Xinhua said on Monday, quoting Ju Xinchun, the captain of the destroyer "Harbin."

"Through this joint exercise, we hope to learn the French navy's combat training experience and combat thought," Ju was quoted as saying.

The drills would be China's first to be conducted on the high seas with a major Western power, Xinhua said. China held its first-ever joint naval exercises with Pakistan last October.

French President Jacques Chirac, keen to strengthen ties with China and win French business a firm footing in the rapidly growing market, sided with China in January in opposing Taiwan President Chen Shui-bian's plan to hold a referendum on missile defense alongside presidential elections on March 20.

Taiwan responded by suspending high-level government exchanges with France.

China, which considers Taiwan a wayward province that must be returned to the fold, has derided the referendum as a splittist plot and some officials have warned of war.

China, whose 2.5 million-strong military represent the world's largest standing armed forces, menaced Taiwan with missile tests and war games in the run-up to the island's first direct presidential elections in 1996 to try to dissuade voters from re-electing President Lee Teng-hui.

The move backfired and Lee won by a landslide.

Chinese officials have adopted a more subtle approach ahead of Saturday's elections and have held their tongue to avoid driving Taiwan voters into the camp of the pro-independence Chen.

Beijing and Taipei have been rivals since their split at the end of the Chinese civil war in 1949.

In Tuesday's exercises, a French anti-submarine destroyer and a corvette class warship would take part beside a Chinese destroyer, a supply vessel and a ship with a helicopter landing pad, Xinhua said.

The French Embassy in Beijing could not immediately be reached for comment.


(edited by Grimis on 16.3.04 0821)
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The Thrill
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#2 Posted on 16.3.04 0756.35
Reposted on: 16.3.11 0757.13
Dammit...just when I was starting to like the French again after their general came out and said Osama bin Laden had escaped their grasp at least once, but they wouldn't give up until they captured the bastard.

Now this...and La Resistance's ranks swelling to 4 w/ the addition of Matilda v2.0...time to start throwing crap at Paris again.
oldschoolhero
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#3 Posted on 16.3.04 0846.31
Reposted on: 16.3.11 0850.05
Knock Knock.

Who's There?

America Pouring Millions Of Dollars' Worth Of Weaponry Into Iraq's Dictatorship In The 80s.

Fair point? I think so.
wmatistic
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#4 Posted on 16.3.04 0857.05
Reposted on: 16.3.11 0858.02
"Through this joint exercise, we hope to learn the French navy's combat training experience and combat thought," Ju was quoted as saying."

heh, yeah that's gonna be real helpful I bet.
Nate The Snake
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#5 Posted on 16.3.04 0917.34
Reposted on: 16.3.11 0919.23
    Originally posted by wmatistic
    "Through this joint exercise, we hope to learn the French navy's combat training experience and combat thought," Ju was quoted as saying."

    heh, yeah that's gonna be real helpful I bet.


Maybe the Chinese were reading history books instead of current intelligence reports when they decided this would be educational. I'm not one for France-bashing but I don't really recall them being high on the list of naval powers in the last couple of hundred years.
ges7184
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#6 Posted on 16.3.04 1004.40
Reposted on: 16.3.11 1004.50
    Originally posted by oldschoolhero
    Knock Knock.

    Who's There?

    America Pouring Millions Of Dollars' Worth Of Weaponry Into Iraq's Dictatorship In The 80s.

    Fair point? I think so.


Forget Iraq, what about our own policies with China themselves as far as free trade goes. I think we have enhanced China's military capabilities more than this naval exercise with France ever would.
Von Maestro
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#7 Posted on 16.3.04 1126.54
Reposted on: 16.3.11 1128.35
    Originally posted by oldschoolhero
    Knock Knock.

    Who's There?

    America Pouring Millions Of Dollars' Worth Of Weaponry Into Iraq's Dictatorship In The 80s.

    Fair point? I think so.


If you see Iraq as a country on par with one that makes up most of the world's population, then yes, it's a fair point...
CRZ
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#8 Posted on 16.3.04 1147.18
Reposted on: 16.3.11 1147.52
    Originally posted by oldschoolhero
    Knock Knock.

    Who's There?

    America Pouring Millions Of Dollars' Worth Of Weaponry Into Iraq's Dictatorship In The 80s.

    Fair point? I think so.
What exactly does this have to do with China, Taiwan and France? Or did you actually read the story?
    Originally posted by ges7184
    Forget Iraq, what about our own policies with China themselves as far as free trade goes. I think we have enhanced China's military capabilities more than this naval exercise with France ever would.
Yet we're still friendly toward's Taiwan and would probably help them if they declared independence....or perhaps it's more accurate to say that at the current time, the USA would like to have it both ways and hopes neither side takes such a drastic step that we'd have to support one at the expense of the other. There is also the matter that the story is more about the provocative action taken by China and France so close to an election in Taiwan, and I'm not sure there's a correlating American action you could point to - if indeed you're looking for a reason to make the USA look "just as bad|guilty|culpable|pick your own pejorative."
oldschoolhero
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#9 Posted on 16.3.04 1219.03
Reposted on: 16.3.11 1219.35
"What exactly does this have to do with China, Taiwan and France? Or did you actually read the story?"

France are being lambasted here for having military ties to an unstable international force for, one would assume, their own gain. Hell yeah it's wrong, but the short-sightedness of proclaiming that they're not even allies any more when both my country and yours has engaged in similar nefarious schemes over the past coupla decades is kinda hypocritical. It's them doing it today, it's us doing it in another five or ten years.
The Amazing Salami
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#10 Posted on 16.3.04 1219.29
Reposted on: 16.3.11 1220.26
(deleted by CRZ on 16.3.04 1034)
DrDirt
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#11 Posted on 16.3.04 1333.51
Reposted on: 16.3.11 1334.26
Zed, we will defend Taiwan if it is attacked but we are pushing for them not to seek independence.
redsoxnation
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#12 Posted on 16.3.04 1650.21
Reposted on: 16.3.11 1651.41
I thought that China was more of an ally to us over the past few decades than the French to begin with, so really I'm disapointed with them for slumming with the French Navy. What do they hope to learn from them militarily, the proper method to carry and wave a white flag?
rockdotcom_2.0
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#13 Posted on 16.3.04 2235.43
Reposted on: 16.3.11 2237.45
OK people, China is not our enemy. We are not engaged in any military action against the Chinese. We have full diplomatic relations with China, our corporations do business with and in China. They are not an enemy. They have problems with Taiwan whom we support, but like Z said we really don't want to be pushed to choose one over the other.


France is our NATO ally, but they are not the 51st US state. They are a free nation that can work with whoever they want. They have their own policies that we may not agree with. That doesn't make them an enemy either. Thats makes them a free independent nation. Them sending their navy to work with the Chinese Navy is not an act of aggression or an act to undermine democracy.


It is inevitable that China will become a major world player, possibly even a superpower on par with the US. There's nothing wrong with France wanting to get the same foothold in the Chinese market that we already enjoy.


So France didn't support us in Iraq, so what? They support the Global War on Terror, but didn't believe that going in Iraq supported that cause, and they may end up being right so give the french bashing a rest.


The Thrill
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#14 Posted on 17.3.04 0820.16
Reposted on: 17.3.11 0820.30
    Originally posted by rockdotcom_2.0
    OK people, China is not our enemy. We are not engaged in any military action against the Chinese. We have full diplomatic relations with China, our corporations do business with and in China. They are not an enemy. They have problems with Taiwan whom we support, but like Z said we really don't want to be pushed to choose one over the other.


And those full diplomatic relations have caused a lot of controversy. Many people said back in the 1990s that perhaps we shouldn't be granting Most Favored Nation trading status to a country that killed its own people in the capital city demonstrating peacefully for increased individual rights...a concept we hold dear here in the USA. Tianamen Square...I'm still pissed off over it, and that was 1989.

Let's not forget, folks...they're a COMMUNIST nation. That makes them the bad guys. They want the economic benefits of capitalism without relinquishing any of the political controls used to stifle the Chinese popularion for over 50 years.

Not to mention that they, along with the old Soviet Union, threw their troops into the fray in Korea, knowing full well we couldn't strike back in their territory without starting World War III...so they teed off on our troops. How many of us have uncles or brothers that never came back from the Korean Peninsula thanks to Chinese bullets?

Yeah, we need some kind of economic relationship with China. But not a bunch of shameless boot-licking that requires us to nearly turn our backs on the closest thing they have to democracy...their "renegade province" of Taiwan.

Put me down on the side of an independent Taiwan, and SCREW Beijing. Bunch of repressive, murdering bastards.
PalpatineW
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#15 Posted on 17.3.04 1500.20
Reposted on: 17.3.11 1500.25
    Originally posted by ges7184
      Originally posted by oldschoolhero
      Knock Knock.

      Who's There?

      America Pouring Millions Of Dollars' Worth Of Weaponry Into Iraq's Dictatorship In The 80s.

      Fair point? I think so.


    Forget Iraq, what about our own policies with China themselves as far as free trade goes. I think we have enhanced China's military capabilities more than this naval exercise with France ever would.


One doesn't have to look much farther than President Clinton to explain much of their nuclear capability. And one likely doesn't have to look much farther than China for an explanation of any North Korean military might, nuclear and otherwise.

[Reference: http://www.washingtonpost.com/ wp-srv/politics/special/ missile/keystories.htm]

This business with the French is still ridiculous. There's a difference between having a cordial economic relationship with China and actively helping them intimidate the people o f Taiwan.

    Originally posted by oldschoolhero
    Knock Knock.

    Who's There?

    America Pouring Millions Of Dollars' Worth Of Weaponry Into Iraq's Dictatorship In The 80s.

    Fair point? I think so.


No, not at all. We did some regrettable things to prevent the occurrance of even more regrettable things. The Soviets were a legitimately evil, expansionistic power. Either we controlled the globe or they did, more or less; this played out in Asia, Africa, the Middle East... it's not really up for discussion. I don't see any comparable excuse for France to help bully the Taiwanese, who are pretty much minding their own damn business. Again, trade is one thing, but actrively aiding the military of a communist power whose goal in this matter is to repress the freedoms of the Taiwanese is ridiculous, your myopic hatred of the U.S. aside.
DrDirt
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#16 Posted on 17.3.04 1544.56
Reposted on: 17.3.11 1545.12
I believe that under Clintons watch we gave them guidance system stuff which helped with accurate delivery, not nuclear capabilities but the ability to deliver them.
spf
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#17 Posted on 17.3.04 1550.19
Reposted on: 17.3.11 1552.17
Of course, I wonder with actions like this how much longer we can continue to stick the nasty COMMUNIST *shock* *gasp* label on them.

China to Protect Private Property (news.bbc.co.uk)

China to protect private property
By Francis Markus
BBC, Shanghai

Members of China's National People's Congress have introduced a proposed amendment to the constitution, which will legally protect private property rights for the first time since 1949.
The official Xinhua news agency said lawmakers also proposed an amendment to enshrine in the constitution the theories of Jiang Zemin, the former president who invited capitalists to join the Communist Party.


China's parliament has begun discussing the amendments, which go right to the heart of the sweeping economic reforms of recent years.
Perhaps the most significant change is an amendment guaranteeing private property rights.

A Communist Party plenum in October decided to proceed with that decision and China's compliant legislature cannot do much to thwart it. Yet there has been heated debate about the move, which marks a dramatic step for a country still trying to reconcile free market economics with an authoritarian Maoist/Leninist heritage.

Another contentious part of this ideological juggling game now being discussed is how to enshrine in the constitution former President Jiang Zemin's awkwardly-named doctrine called the "Three Represents".

This is an attempt to broaden the party's support base to include not just the working class but the newly emerging entrepreneurial elite.

The constitutional amendment process will take several months before the changes are presented to the full NPC session in March, and there are still likely to be voices urging caution as China's grapples with an ever-broadening wealth gap.







(edited by spf2119 on 17.3.04 1550)
PalpatineW
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#18 Posted on 17.3.04 1606.36
Reposted on: 17.3.11 1610.22
    Originally posted by spf2119
    Of course, I wonder with actions like this how much longer we can continue to stick the nasty COMMUNIST *shock* *gasp* label on them.


Perhaps from the comfort of your home you can treat communism like a joke, but try making that joke to any of those dead or imprisoned as a result of China's totalitarian government. Here are a few links for you.

http://www.hrw.org/ english/docs/2004/01/ 29/china7123.htm

http://www.tibet.com/ Humanrights/torture/torture.html

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/ business/165061_chinalabor17.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/ worldlatest/story/0,1280,- 3853959,00.html

Short version, in case you don't want to click: We have torture in Tibet. People getting arrested for advocating democracy. Various workers' rights violations. Lord knows what else, as I only devoted 10 minutes to my research, here. But you're still spouting off like an angst-ridden 16 year old and making a joke out of "COMMUNIST[s], *shock* *gasp*." Again, I think that the dead and imprisoned Chinese would have other things to say on the topic.
Leroy
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#19 Posted on 17.3.04 1619.32
Reposted on: 17.3.11 1622.22
    Originally posted by PalpatineW
    People getting arrested for advocating democracy.


Funny, but I didn't think you were all that big of a fan of Democracy.

http://wienerboard.com/ thread.php/id=18128&page=1

And I quote:

    Originally posted by PalpatineW

    Democracy is little more than "I can take yours if I get enough votes."


Maybe all China is trying to protect is the "undeserving folks" from getting enough votes...

PalpatineW
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#20 Posted on 17.3.04 1634.01
Reposted on: 17.3.11 1634.25
    Originally posted by Leroy
      Originally posted by PalpatineW
      People getting arrested for advocating democracy.


    Funny, but I didn't think you were all that big of a fan of Democracy.

    http://wienerboard.com/ thread.php/id=18128&page=1

    And I quote:

      Originally posted by PalpatineW

      Democracy is little more than "I can take yours if I get enough votes."


    Maybe all China is trying to protect is the "undeserving folks" from getting enough votes...




In the context I made that statement, I stand by it. You and I both know that "democracy" is a buzz word, capable of meaning many things. Neither you nor I would advocate a "democracy" in which the rights of, say, ethnic or religious minorities could be voted away. Thus, your quoting my previous statement here is nothing more than a straw man.

Furthermore, my opinion of Democracy is completely irrelevant to my opinion on one's right to advocate it. I repeat: straw man.

I have no interest in trading personal barbs with you on this forum, and I don't think anyone else has an interest in reading them, so let's stick to the topic at hand.
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