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The 7 - Current Events & Politics - Is John Kerry going to be the next prez?
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rockdotcom_2.0
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#21 Posted on 10.3.04 2348.19
Reposted on: 10.3.11 2350.33
first let me say that John Kerry can win this election. President Bush is far from unbeatable. And he has been for awhile.


I want to touch on Kerry supposedly "betraying" his country after he returned from Vietnam. I don't understand how anyone could accuse a man who served honorably in an unpopular conflict of treason because he came home and protested his country's involvement in that war. This goes back to one of my biggest frustrations as someone who served in the military. People assume that all military people are mindless automatons who all vote republican and follow orders and march off to war without giving a second thought to why we are going and if this is the right thing to do. In the military you swear to defend the constitution. You're defending the right of free speech and to protest the actions of your government. How can one be called a "traitor" if after he wears the uniform he exercises his right to protest?



In the military they teach you that one of the most important factors in leading people is trust. Your men have to trust your leadership ability. They have to trust that you are leading them down the right path. You as a leader have to trust YOUR superiors to give you to lead you in the right way, and to give you what you need to get the job done. If you're putting the lives of your men on the line, you had better be doing something worth risking your lives for.


John Kerry served in Vietnam, he saw his friends die, he saw men under his command die. And he didn't think it was right. He didn't think his leadership had put him a position where he could succeed. And when he came home he protested. He raised his voice against his government for wasting the lives of its servicemen. TO lump him in with some of the anti war folks who spit on and abused servicemen is wrong. John Kerry did none of those things. Which is the reason that thousands of Vietnam Vets support him today. Are they all traitors to?


And to Flea I'm going to have to disagree with you pal. I live in the south and I grew up just a few miles north of where you are now. There is still quite a few southerners that would not want to see a Black person in charge of things. In your post you quoted someone you RESPECT as saying "I'd rather vote for a nigger than that son of a bitch." Is that supposed to convince me that he would vote for a black man? Thanks but no thanks.


And Most Black people in the south wouldn't vote for Kerry because he protested the war? You're reaching on that one too. I'm sure I know more black people than you do, and I don't know one who is supporting Kerry over Bush.

eviljonhunt81
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#22 Posted on 11.3.04 0041.52
Reposted on: 11.3.11 0042.42
    Originally posted by Big Bad
    If you were dating a girl. . .

That's where ya lost 'em.
Nag
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#23 Posted on 11.3.04 0130.02
Reposted on: 11.3.11 0130.21
    Originally posted by Big Bad
    In response to some of the posts on this board....doesn't it bother you Americans that the majority of the rest of the world absolutely hates your president?





      Why? Why should it bother me that a bunch of people eating Big Mac's and wearing Levi's in London don't like the president of the United States. Why should it bother me that a bunch of people in Berlin burn the man if effigy, then go home and dance the tootsie roll to Britney Spears? Why should I or any other American care about people who had, have, and will have a tainted and negative bias towards my country and the people in my country.

      How many of them realize that there is more to this country then L.A and New York, how many actually been here and shook the hands of the people, the common man who works 9-5 to put a meal on the table and roof over their kids head? The ones who don't, all, have the right to express opinions, and I have a right and will exercise the right to say, "Fuck You". And after writing this, I ask myself once again, why should I care?

      (edited by Nag on 11.3.04 0231)
The Goon
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#24 Posted on 11.3.04 0731.19
Reposted on: 11.3.11 0731.21
I'm actually on Nag's side with this one. I wouldn't want Americans (or any other country's citizens) telling me as a Canadian who I should be electing for my Prime Minister, so why should they care what we think? And, for that matter, why should we care how they govern themselves?

Grimis
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#25 Posted on 11.3.04 0755.54
Reposted on: 11.3.11 0756.23
    Originally posted by The Goon
    And, for that matter, why should we care how they govern themselves?
I can see why, though, because bad policy can affect the other side of the border. The best example of that is the pathetically week immigration laws in Canada that could make it easier for potential terrorists to be on our doorstep and sneak into the country.
JoshMann
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#26 Posted on 11.3.04 0825.25
Reposted on: 11.3.11 0826.39
    Originally posted by Grimis
      Originally posted by The Goon
      And, for that matter, why should we care how they govern themselves?
    I can see why, though, because bad policy can affect the other side of the border. The best example of that is the pathetically week immigration laws in Canada that could make it easier for potential terrorists to be on our doorstep and sneak into the country.



Have you ever actually tried to apply for a work visa in Canada? If you did, you'd realize it's too much of a beurocratic pain in the ass to be easy.
The Goon
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#27 Posted on 11.3.04 0834.35
Reposted on: 11.3.11 0834.40
Welcome to Canada...if the paperwork doesn't kill you, then the long phone waits will.

Back on topic...it's March now, and the election isn't until November. It's important for both sides not to peak too early. You have to figure that the polls will ebb and flow through the spring and summer, with each party getting a small bump in the aftermath of their respective conventions.

In late September and early October, I am guessing there will be a series of debates(I think there were 2 in 2000, plus one for the VP candidates) which will be focusing on whatever the topics of the day happen to be.

Kerry's dynamic with whoever he chooses to be his Veep candidate will help paint a brighter picture.
Grimis
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#28 Posted on 11.3.04 0844.09
Reposted on: 11.3.11 0844.09
    Originally posted by The Goon
    In late September and early October, I am guessing there will be a series of debates(I think there were 2 in 2000, plus one for the VP candidates) which will be focusing on whatever the topics of the day happen to be.
In 2004, your debates sponsored by the Commission on Presidential Debates:

First presidential debate:
University of Miami
Coral Gables, FL
Thursday, September 30

Vice presidential debate:
Case Western Reserve University
Cleveland, OH
Tuesday, October 5

Second presidential debate:
Washington University in St. Louis
St. Louis, MO
Friday, October 8

Third presidential debate:
Arizona State University
Tempe, AZ
Wednesday, October 13
DrDirt
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#29 Posted on 11.3.04 0848.03
Reposted on: 11.3.11 0848.55
    Originally posted by The Goon
    Welcome to Canada...if the paperwork doesn't kill you, then the long phone waits will.

    Back on topic...it's March now, and the election isn't until November. It's important for both sides not to peak too early. You have to figure that the polls will ebb and flow through the spring and summer, with each party getting a small bump in the aftermath of their respective conventions.

    In late September and early October, I am guessing there will be a series of debates(I think there were 2 in 2000, plus one for the VP candidates) which will be focusing on whatever the topics of the day happen to be.

    Kerry's dynamic with whoever he chooses to be his Veep candidate will help paint a brighter picture.


Series of debates is optimistic. Kerry will want lots and "W" as any smart incumbent who is not as good speaking off the cuff will not. You may see one for the Prez and one for the Veep's. Bush will of course be prepped but they delight in off the wall questions to screw people up. Plus, debates are not all that watched. What people pay attention to is the analysis. As the incumbent, why take a chance on giving the media cannon fodder. It's less harmful for them to bitch that you are a debate wuss.
The Goon
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#30 Posted on 11.3.04 0857.59
Reposted on: 11.3.11 0859.02
Hopefully this won't lead off into another tangent, but does anyone recall that weird debate moment in 2000 when Gore went and stood right by Bush while Bush was talking? Bush gave him a nod and kept on going.

That really creeped me out and I wonder what Gore's motivation was to do that.
AWArulz
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#31 Posted on 11.3.04 1257.12
Reposted on: 11.3.11 1257.37
    Originally posted by Big Bad
    In response to some of the posts on this board....doesn't it bother you Americans that the majority of the rest of the world absolutely hates your president? Sure, the USA isn't exactly the most popular country in the best of time, but Clinton was very popular in Europe (hell, he even has a statue of him in Ireland for his hand in drafting the most recent IRA peace deal). Bush Sr. was well respected for his leadership role in Desert Storm, and even Reagan held in fairly high regard. Obviously you don't want a president that bends over for every other country, but the outright hatred that others has for Bush has to be disconcerting. If you were dating a girl that all of your buddies hated, you'd take it into consideration, right?


I'm not buddies with Canadians or any other little countries, BigBad. They are soverign and as long as they follow the rules, they can stay that way. Pax Americana.

Clinton was popular because he was (and is) anti-american.

Of course, I am also a tad jingoistic.
JoshMann
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#32 Posted on 11.3.04 1309.50
Reposted on: 11.3.11 1310.43
    Originally posted by AWArulz
    I am also a tad jingoistic.



I've never associated that word with being a GOOD thing. Patriotic, yes, even though Bush and his "either you're with us or against us" mentality (and that's just HERE, mind you) has turned the word "freedom" ugly. Jingoism on the other hand, it's the patriotic equivelent of saying "God is everywhere" to explain logic gaps in the Bible.

This is why I think all Americans at one point in their lives should live somewhere else if just to see that this country is not the be all end all of the world.

eviljonhunt81
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#33 Posted on 11.3.04 1422.16
Reposted on: 11.3.11 1422.20
    Originally posted by AWArulz
      Originally posted by Big Bad
      In response to some of the posts on this board....doesn't it bother you Americans that the majority of the rest of the world absolutely hates your president? Sure, the USA isn't exactly the most popular country in the best of time, but Clinton was very popular in Europe (hell, he even has a statue of him in Ireland for his hand in drafting the most recent IRA peace deal). Bush Sr. was well respected for his leadership role in Desert Storm, and even Reagan held in fairly high regard. Obviously you don't want a president that bends over for every other country, but the outright hatred that others has for Bush has to be disconcerting. If you were dating a girl that all of your buddies hated, you'd take it into consideration, right?


    I'm not buddies with Canadians or any other little countries, BigBad. They are soverign and as long as they follow the rules, they can stay that way. Pax Americana.

    Clinton was popular because he was (and is) anti-american.

    Of course, I am also a tad jingoistic.




Calling an ex-president "anti-american" is patriotic now?

Hell, calling a majority of the voters "anti-american" is patriotic?

    Hopefully this won't lead off into another tangent, but does anyone recall that weird debate moment in 2000 when Gore went and stood right by Bush while Bush was talking? Bush gave him a nod and kept on going.

    That really creeped me out and I wonder what Gore's motivation was to do that.


The media had painted Gore as "weak," so Gore thought this was a way of fighting that image. Nobody told him that ugly suits and being weird doesn't equal strong, though.
CRZ
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#34 Posted on 11.3.04 1510.11
Reposted on: 11.3.11 1510.29
    Originally posted by Blanket Jackson
    This is why I think all Americans at one point in their lives should live somewhere else if just to see that this country is not the be all end all of the world.


When're you leaving?
JoshMann
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#35 Posted on 11.3.04 1512.58
Reposted on: 11.3.11 1513.35
    Originally posted by CRZ
      Originally posted by Blanket Jackson
      This is why I think all Americans at one point in their lives should live somewhere else if just to see that this country is not the be all end all of the world.


    When're you leaving?


Already did it.
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#36 Posted on 11.3.04 1514.16
Reposted on: 11.3.11 1514.30
    Originally posted by Blanket Jackson
      Originally posted by CRZ
        Originally posted by Blanket Jackson
        This is why I think all Americans at one point in their lives should live somewhere else if just to see that this country is not the be all end all of the world.


      When're you leaving?


    Already did it.
So I can probably infer from the fact that you came back... ;-)
RYDER FAKIN
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#37 Posted on 11.3.04 1526.55
Reposted on: 11.3.11 1527.05
rockdotcom_2.0:

John Kerry served in Vietnam, he saw his friends die, he saw men under his command die. And he didn't think it was right. He didn't think his leadership had put him a position where he could succeed. And when he came home he protested. He raised his voice against his government for wasting the lives of its servicemen. TO lump him in with some of the anti war folks who spit on and abused servicemen is wrong. John Kerry did none of those things. Which is the reason that thousands of Vietnam Vets support him today. Are they all traitors to?

Everyone who was there had their lives changed in one way or another. Lumping him in with the anti-war crowd is appropriate, because that is the side he chose. Granted, he had a little more validity being there, but that doesnt change that he did what he did and for everyone who supports what he did, there are 10 vets that think he is the most useless excuse for a human being and a disgrace to the oath as a service man and his country. Although, I hope this doesnt turn into a debate issue, because, as I mentioned, most people involved would preferably forget what happened. Besides, Kerry is the one that played his Vietnam Card and if his actions after his service come back to haunt him, so be it.

And to Flea I'm going to have to disagree with you pal. I live in the south and I grew up just a few miles north of where you are now. There is still quite a few southerners that would not want to see a Black person in charge of things. In your post you quoted someone you RESPECT as saying "I'd rather vote for a nigger than that son of a bitch." Is that supposed to convince me that he would vote for a black man? Thanks but no thanks.

Well, its definitely true that a certain portion of society stills lives with blinders, but on the whole, even the most ignorant realize it aint the 50s anymore. Also, and to clarify, ignorant bias is not confined to Southerners. Also (2), the two people that told me the above are black, are veterans and most likely saw just as many (if not more) violence and hardship during and after Vietnam that someone like Kerry could imagine. And they dont talk about it which I think is their main issue with someone like Kerry someone who may not have literally spit on the Vets, but throwing the his medals in disgust when he now claims the same medals as his most prized possession is not something that is very well respected, with the exception of a very vocal minority.

And Most Black people in the south wouldn't vote for Kerry because he protested the war? You're reaching on that one too. I'm sure I know more black people than you do, and I don't know one who is supporting Kerry over Bush.

I guess both statements are a matter of debate...Black or White, I think the focal point is going to be the time honored question of character. And Im not really counting anyone who is giving lip service for whom they would vote. Its going to be the actual vote that counts. And for whatever reason in this country, people like to talk about voting but never can seem to find the time to do it...

How Canada got involved with this also appears to be a matter of debate

FLEA
JoshMann
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#38 Posted on 11.3.04 1537.38
Reposted on: 11.3.11 1538.22
    Originally posted by CRZ
      Originally posted by Blanket Jackson
        Originally posted by CRZ
          Originally posted by Blanket Jackson
          This is why I think all Americans at one point in their lives should live somewhere else if just to see that this country is not the be all end all of the world.


        When're you leaving?


      Already did it.
    So I can probably infer from the fact that you came back... ;-)


    Originally posted by my location
    From: Tallahassee, FL


Damn, no fooling you, is there? :-)

But seriously, even if it was Canada and not somewhere more, well, foreign...my perspective on a lot of things American did change. It's not like the Timbits have magic brainwash mix in them or anything and the reason I went there in the first place didn't end well (Just a little, but I kinda envy the fact that your LDR thing ended better than mine did), but on a lot of levels it certainly affected my thinking about certain things. Even if one of them is "Dammit, I miss Maple-Flavored Shreddies"
Big Bad
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#39 Posted on 11.3.04 2230.48
Reposted on: 11.3.11 2230.53
Ah, maple-flavoured Shreddies. Nothing like a big bowl of those in the morning while watching CBC Newsworld, reading the Toronto Star and having the Hip on the radio in the background.

My point with my "doesn't it bother you that the world hates Bush" comment is not to suggest that other countries should play a role in the agenda of another democratic nation. But the fact that it's so blatantly, one-sidedly anti-Bush is kind of a bad sign. How is America supposed to be the leader of democracy in the world that Bush claims it is when nobody respects him?

America right now has a major image problem, and that image is almost solely related to the George W. Bush presidency. The fact that things have gotten so bad after 9/11 (when there was an unprecedented show of support for America) shows just how poorly Bush has managed this whole thing.

Just for the record, I don't really have a strict political affiliation. My views lean left, but I also support some conservative issues (i.e. the death penalty). I usually base my vote on elections on which candidate is the lesser idiot. For example, if Stephen Harper of the Canadian Conservative Party can prove to me in the next few months that he's not as wishy-washy as I think he is, he's got my vote in the next federal election since I'm not impressed with Paul Martin so far.

I'm not entirely impressed with Kerry, either, but at this point I wouldn't trust Dubya Bush to run a lemonade stand, let alone a country. A guy who'd be the first person voted out of The Apprentice shouldn't be running America.
Jakegnosis
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#40 Posted on 12.3.04 0008.47
Reposted on: 12.3.11 0009.14
    Originally posted by RYDER FAKIN
    Also (2), the two people that told me the above are black, are veterans and most likely saw just as many (if not more) violence and hardship during and after Vietnam that someone like Kerry could imagine. And they dont talk about it which I think is their main issue with someone like Kerry someone who may not have literally spit on the Vets, but throwing the his medals in disgust when he now claims the same medals as his most prized possession is not something that is very well respected, with the exception of a very vocal minority.


First of all, Flea, he didn't throw his medals. Medals are awards you recieve for specific acts of valor and bravery. He tossed his combat ribbons, which are what you receive just for showing up and participating like everyone else.

And I suggest you reread the Serviceman's Oath. I took it, and there's no goddamn thing in there that says I can't come back home, put away my uniform and speak out against senseless violence. That's insane. I have to agree with everything Bush does because I used to be 3rd Ranger battalion? I enjoy your writing and fondness for booze, Flea, but you're a political whackjob. There's something called freedom of speech that I believe Bush is claiming to be giving to Iraqis. Don't I have it, too? AWARulz, who I believe is also a Ranger (am I remembering wrong, AWA? We chatted in a thread a long time ago In This Very Folder) has political views that are the polar opposite of mine. he thinks Clinton was anti-American, I think Bush is anti-American. If we, a year from now, have a radically left-wing administration, does that mean he has to shut his mouth and agree with the government because he used to wear a Ranger tab on his shoulder? Fuck no.

That's the beauty of American freedom. I say what the fuck I like, he says what the fuck he likes, and I'd bet we could sit down, drink some beers and watch a baseball game without being all pissed at each other, because this is America, and that's the entire point.
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