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22.8.07 0655
The 7 - Hockey - I WANT TO FUCKING KILL TODD BERTUZZI
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wordlife
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#41 Posted on 11.3.04 0742.27
Reposted on: 11.3.11 0742.27
    Originally posted by Kidbrooklyn
    Wordlife, you're 25 years old (according to your profile). I HOPE that you understand the difference between wrestling and real life by now. Comparing what "Bert" did to what "AA or Tully" would do is completely ludicrous. If you think what "Bert" did was in the right please, for the love of god, come up with a stronger argument.

    And how the hell would the league use this incident as an argument for contraction? Both teams are established franchises. Your statement makes no sense.

    As far as the hit goes, Broncolance put it best when he called "Bert" a 240 pound douchefuck. There is no reason, in any situation, to hit a man when he's not looking. There is also no reason to hit a man who is smaller than you are. These are the signs of a coward. So keep worshiping your coward. After all, he's the toughest guy in the NHL. He hit a man from behind and broke that man's neck. Awesome.


Do any of you READ the posts?!!??! It seems like you are all reading the first few lines then drawing a conclusion

If you read my first post, I totally disagree with what Bert did, it was wrong and it needs to be punished (he should be suspended all through the playoffs, which I have stated 2 TIMES), I just am able to see the other side of the coin and can understand to some extent why Bert did what he did

Steve Moore is a 3rd line player at best....he is known in the league as an "instigator" and he is known to stir things up...well when you start trouble, you are gonna find trouble, its part of the world people...I know that if I go out looking for problems and start shit with people, I am gonna end up with my ass kicked at some point...I never said Moore deserved what he got, but when you do stuff like he does, it will come back to haunt you

And yes Kid, I know wrestling is fake but I was trying to draw an analogy (hopefully you know what that word means)to the fact that if your buddy gets his ass beat by a cheap shot from a notorious pot stirrer someone is gonna stop it... you should understand that Bert did not intentionally try to break his neck and that players like Moore (who play an overaggressive game) should check themselves before they wreck themselves...also why wouldn't you be pissed if Domi did it?...Furthermore Kid, I don't think Fuel was saying "Oh gee it's great to get your neck broken", he was making a point that Moore will be playing hockey next year (well, if there is any hockey)... a big college hockey prospect for BC named Patrick Eaves had the same type of injury a year or 2 ago and now he is fine, it won't be easy but if Moore approaches this challenge as he did his struggle to get to the NHL, he should make it back

And the argument about Bert being smaller than Moore is crazy b/c I have met Naslund and he is about 5'10" and weighs about 180 (he is listed on espn.com at 5'11" 195), so that kills that argument...and honestly, Bert is a lot like Thornton, I think if it was even Beukeboom Bert would have went after him...Bert is a known hothead and has no problem with going after guys his own size

After seeing that press conference, I have a lot of respect for Bert. It took balls to do what he did (get up and admit he was wrong, I certainly didn't see Samuelsson do that when he ended Neely's career more or less, and I don't remember Hunter or Johnson doing that) He showed everyone that he has a heart and really isn't a guy looking to kill someone (as I have tried to state)



Doc_whiskey
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#42 Posted on 11.3.04 0810.15
Reposted on: 11.3.11 0813.50
Bertuzzi is officially suspended for the rest of the season and the playoffs

http://sports.espn.go.com/ nhl/news/story?id=1756628

And wordlife I think the problem people are having is that you may say the actions were bad, but then you say things like he is an instigator, etc. implying that he had it coming. The problem with that is he fought someone earlier in the game, that should have been it, why should he have to keep fighting people? But to use your argument, lets say that the extra retribution was necessary to send a message to Moore that hitting the captain like that is not allowed. Then Bertuzzi should have spun him around before he hit him. If he won't fight at least he will be able to cover up, or ball up to protect himself. Instead he nearly had his career ended by a cowardly act where Bertuzzi let his emotions get the best of him, and that is inexcusable.

(edited by Doc_whiskey on 11.3.04 0813)
The Goon
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#43 Posted on 11.3.04 0811.31
Reposted on: 11.3.11 0815.07
Bertuzzi has been suspended for the remainder of the regular season and all of the playoffs. He is due to meet with the NHL brass before the beginning of the next season to discuss it further.

Also, there has been a $250000 fine handed out to the Vancouver Canucks organization.
JoshMann
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#44 Posted on 11.3.04 0826.47
Reposted on: 11.3.11 0829.01
    Originally posted by The Goon
    He is due to meet with the NHL brass before the beginning of the next season to discuss it further.


Or in other words, before October 2005.
TheICON
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#45 Posted on 11.3.04 0953.19
Reposted on: 11.3.11 0954.05
    Originally posted by JayJayDean
      Originally posted by fuelinjected
      I keep looking back at Matt Johnson, a repeat offender, who ended someone's career with a sucker punch to the back of the head. He got 12 games. People complain that the star players get preferential treatment from the league but if Bertuzzi gets an excessive suspension because he's a star, I doubt those same people will say a word about that double standard.


    Johnson's suspension was in 1998. McSorley's was in 2000, so I'd say McSorley's is the valid precedent here, not Johnson's.


Yes, a nearly indentical act is no longer the precedent when a totally different act happens later. A swing with a stick is more relevant to a gloved sucker punch causing serious injury than a gloved sucker punch causing injury. Gotcha.

The only thing McSorley has in common with Bertuzzi is that they claim they were trying to goad their victims into a fight. McSorley's claim is horseshit, Bertuzzi's seems reasonable. Bertuzzi grabbed his jersey, hit him with a punch, and grabbed his arm. All thatleads me to believe he wanted a fight, not to injure the man. Johnson was trying to take Beuekeboom out in retaliation for a slew foot. Johnson's punch also came during a goal celebration, which is much worse of a cheapshot than following a guy up ice during game play. The only thing worse about Bertuzzi-Moore are the fall to the ice (which looks like Bertuzzi grabbed onto him to spin him around and went down because Moore was dead weight) and the hysteria from non-hockey pundits and bleeding hearts calling for a pound of Bertuzzi's flesh.

In some ways the Johnson punch was worse (also, Beukeboom never recovered, while Moore stands an excellent chance of doing so) and in some ways the Bertuzzi punch was worse, but it is by far the most valid precedent. 12 games is fair. Anything else is getting the cross and the nails, which is what they have done.

(edited by TheICON on 11.3.04 1140)
canucklover
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#46 Posted on 11.3.04 1137.39
Reposted on: 11.3.11 1142.23
    Originally posted by Kidbrooklyn
    No, I don't think you should change the thread title. Bertuzzi still did what he did and no matter how sincere and heartfelt his press conference was, it doesn't change the fact that he almost took a man's life on the ice. Even though he was crying, I don't buy his argument that he didn't mean to hurt him. When you swing at the back of a man's head with the force that Bertuzzi did, the intention is clear: to inflict pain. The fact that he wound up to swing again does nothing to help sway my opinion on this matter. The press conference only proved that Bertuzzi is not a heartless robot. He understands what he did and he understands what could have happened to Moore in the worst case scenario. But, again, it still doesn't take back what he did.

    And Fuelinjected, last time I checked (and thankfully there's a thread devoted to it) you're not a doctor. Saying that breaking the C3 and C4 vertebrae is akin to breaking one's wrist and fingers is completely insane. I would much rather have someone smash my hand into a bloody pulp, rendering it useless for the rest of my life than to have the possibility of being completely paralyzed. Qualifying your argument by saying that the bones will heal "stronger than before" is also ignorant and irresponsible. So in essence, Bertuzzi did Moore a favor by breaking his neck? Now Moore has some sort of super-neck? Where do I sign up to get one of those?

    On a personal note, why is it that I'm upset at what Bertuzzi did? I wouldn't be nearly as irate if Domi had done it.


Perhaps I can provide some clarification with respect to the medical issues raised by FuelInjected and commented upon by KidBrooklyn and Whitebacon. Each vertebral level in the spinal cord has nerves which run off it and control certain parts of the body by carrying electrical impulses from the brain to muscles, tendons etc. With respect to the cervical vertebra (i.e. those which are offshoot of the cervical spine and protected by the vertebrae C1-8), damage to the spinal cord thereunder often causes paralysis in the form of para-, quadri-, or tetraplegia. This is because the cervical nerves control arms, head and neck, and diaphragm. Specifically, the C4 to C8 nerves are responsible for hands and arms, the C3 for the diaphragm, and the C1-2 for head and neck.

What this means is that if Steve Moore's C3 and 4 vertebra had been fractured in such a way that the fragments were dislocated from each other and caused compression, impingement or severance of the spinal canal and cord, then he could have lost diaphragmatic control. This would likely have resulted in him becoming ventilator-dependent, in addition to quadriplegic. He would not, though, have been rendered tetraplegic as would still have control of his neck.

Of course, this assumes that the damage to the spinal cord was severe, and it should be kept in mind that there are varying degrees of injury which the human spine can sustain. The simple fact of a spinal cord injury does not necessarily mean paralysis. There is no doubt, however, that C3/4 damage is extremely serious and potentially life-threatening.
Broncolanche
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#47 Posted on 11.3.04 1225.17
Reposted on: 11.3.11 1227.39
    Originally posted by Bullitt
    Of COURSE he was heartfelt and sincere. Of COURSE he appeared to be very stressed.

    Wouldn't you if your NHL career was possibly on the line here? He wasn't going to say "Oh, yeah, I did it. So what?"


Well, yeah. But I think it's more than just about his career being on the line. He's got a history of being a hothead and having his emotions getting the best of him, thus impairing his good judgement, so I'm pretty sure his realization that he almost killed a human being is eating him up inside.
JayJayDean
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#48 Posted on 11.3.04 1305.08
Reposted on: 11.3.11 1305.46
    Originally posted by TheIcon
    Yes, a nearly indentical act is no longer the precedent when a totally different act happens later. A swing with a stick is more relevant to a gloved sucker punch causing serious injury than a gloved sucker punch causing injury. Gotcha.

    The only thing McSorley has in common with Bertuzzi is that they claim they were trying to goad their victims into a fight. McSorley's claim is horseshit, Bertuzzi's seems reasonable. Bertuzzi grabbed his jersey, hit him with a punch, and grabbed his arm. All thatleads me to believe he wanted a fight, not to injure the man. Johnson was trying to take Beuekeboom out in retaliation for a slew foot. Johnson's punch also came during a goal celebration, which is much worse of a cheapshot than following a guy up ice during game play. The only thing worse about Bertuzzi-Moore are the fall to the ice (which looks like Bertuzzi grabbed onto him to spin him around and went down because Moore was dead weight) and the hysteria from non-hockey pundits and bleeding hearts calling for a pound of Bertuzzi's flesh.

    In some ways the Johnson punch was worse (also, Beukeboom never recovered, while Moore stands an excellent chance of doing so) and in some ways the Bertuzzi punch was worse, but it is by far the most valid precedent. 12 games is fair. Anything else is getting the cross and the nails, which is what they have done.


I don't claim to know everything about the Johnson-Beukeboom incident, but it strikes me that there are SEVERAL parallels between the McSorley and Bertuzzi incidents.

1. Both McSorley and Bertuzzi were trying to goad the opposing players into a fight.

2. Both McSorley and Bertuzzi took a shot at a guy who was completely unprepared and offering no defense for the blow he received.

3. Neither McSorley nor Bertuzzi had intent to injure the opposing player to the extent that actually occurred.

4. Both McSorley and Bertuzzi's actions have been decried as going beyond "hockey justice" and into "criminal conduct".

I see no reason that Bertuzzi shouldn't receive the same 80-game ban that McSorley received. I also believe that if Matt Johnson were to end Jeff Beukeboom's career today HE would receive a similar suspension as opposed to the 12-game suspension he received in 1998, before the McSorley incident occurred.

If you are driving a car and someone cuts you off and you decide to tap their bumper in retaliation, you wouldn't receive the same punishment if the other driver simply pulled over harmlessly to assess the damage, as opposed to, say, if the driver lost control and hit a tree. If Steve Moore had the ability to turn around and fight Bertuzzi and got his ass kicked no one would be calling for the harsh punishments suggested for Bertuzzi. However, that doesn't change the facts of what ACTUALLY HAPPENED in this case, so I disagree with any logic that says because Bertuzzi didn't MEAN to seriously injure Steve Moore indicates he should receive less of a punishment.

(edited by JayJayDean on 11.3.04 1106)
StaggerLee
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#49 Posted on 11.3.04 1322.05
Reposted on: 11.3.11 1322.28
    Originally posted by Corajudo
    That said, I have a question about fighting etiquette. My impression was that if a player wants to fight, then skates up to the other player and, face-to-face tells him 'let's go' (or some equivalent). Is this right? In sum, is there some sort of honor code for hockey fighting? Because, if there is, it seems that, even before he cold cocked Moore, Bertuzzi violated it in a big way.


That is pretty much the way MOST hockey fights start. After a big hit, or an elbow here or there, there is usually talking involved, and then either they drop gloves right then and there, or they wait for a stoppage in play, so that any scoring chance may be allowed to occur.

Most guys who are at an NHL level who are responsible for "protection" services, are aware of who the others are, and they are generally the ones that will fight each other. That is why you never saw Gretzky dropping gloves or Mario. It wasnt thier place or role on the team.
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#50 Posted on 11.3.04 1433.43
Reposted on: 11.3.11 1433.47
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    That is why you never saw Gretzky dropping gloves or Mario.


Didn't Mario drop the gloves against a Panther some time last season?
canucklover
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#51 Posted on 11.3.04 1557.29
Reposted on: 11.3.11 1557.30
    Originally posted by Broncolanche
      Originally posted by StaggerLee
      That is why you never saw Gretzky dropping gloves or Mario.


    Didn't Mario drop the gloves against a Panther some time last season?


Lemieux fought with Brad Ferrence of the Panthers last year. To be fair, it wasn't much of a fight, as Ferrence never dropped his gloves and did not receive a fighting major. The fight was broken up almost immediately as players from both teams jumped in.

Gretzky had three fights in his career. Everyone knows about his scrap with Neal Broten, but he also went with Bob Murray and Doug Lecuyer.
Big G
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#52 Posted on 11.3.04 1706.57
Reposted on: 11.3.11 1706.57
*Points to flag

This even made the mainstream news here. When it was accompanied by the disclaimer "We warn you that some scenes in this story may offend or upset some viewers" I knew I haad to watch it.

Gee, and the PTC hates wrestling.
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#53 Posted on 11.3.04 1753.00
Reposted on: 11.3.11 1754.46
    Originally posted by Broncolanche
      Originally posted by StaggerLee
      That is why you never saw Gretzky dropping gloves or Mario.


    Didn't Mario drop the gloves against a Panther some time last season?


Actually, I have seen him drop them twice, and had his ass handed to him both times. Mostly during a situation where more than one scuffle was going on at the time.
Big Bad
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#54 Posted on 11.3.04 2208.30
Reposted on: 11.3.11 2210.22
Y'see, I have no problem with fighting. Fighting is a way to pump up your team and (frankly) most hockey fights are just done to blow off steam. Back in the old days, they used to fight all the the time and that was that. Fighting in hockey is like charging the mound in baseball; it has to be done sometimes as a necessary reaction and there usually isn't a lot of damage done.

What I don't like is how the NHL markets fighting. MLB doesn't go around marketing basebrawls, for example, and yet every hockey highlight reel has two guys duking it out or you have Don Cherry selling his Rock 'Em Sock 'Em tapes. Fighting is perhaps a "smart penalty" (like tripping a guy who's about to score) in some cases, but it's still a penalty-worthy offense.

Bertuzzi, however, decided to be a fucking asshole and try to be a big man after Moore had had his fight earlier in the game. Let's not forget that the score was also 9-2 Colorado, so "Bert" was not just being cheap, he was also a sore loser.

I would've suspended him for a full year, just like McSorley.
Reverend J Shaft
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#55 Posted on 12.3.04 0821.36
Reposted on: 12.3.11 0822.12
    Originally posted by Big Bad
    Y'see, I have no problem with fighting. Fighting is a way to pump up your team and (frankly) most hockey fights are just done to blow off steam. Back in the old days, they used to fight all the the time and that was that. Fighting in hockey is like charging the mound in baseball; it has to be done sometimes as a necessary reaction and there usually isn't a lot of damage done.

    What I don't like is how the NHL markets fighting. MLB doesn't go around marketing basebrawls, for example, and yet every hockey highlight reel has two guys duking it out or you have Don Cherry selling his Rock 'Em Sock 'Em tapes. Fighting is perhaps a "smart penalty" (like tripping a guy who's about to score) in some cases, but it's still a penalty-worthy offense.

    Bertuzzi, however, decided to be a fucking asshole and try to be a big man after Moore had had his fight earlier in the game. Let's not forget that the score was also 9-2 Colorado, so "Bert" was not just being cheap, he was also a sore loser.

    I would've suspended him for a full year, just like McSorley.


I completely agree with you in that I have no problem with fighting in hockey and that Bertuzzi was being cheap - especially since Moore had already fought. However, I wouldn't say that Bertuzzi was being a sore loser. In fact, I think he was happy (OK, maybe not happy) they were losing so bad so he could have a reason to go after Moore. In a close game, he would be worried about an instigator penalty, but by being down 9-2, he was free to conduct his "revenge" for the Naslund hit (which I agree seemed legal).

I'm just playing devil's advocate here, but what would everyone have thought if Moore had turned around and dropped the gloves and then had his vertebra broken by a Bertuzzi punch? I'm a little hypocritical in that I love watching the hockey fights but I think that the NHL can expect to see more of this cheap crap as long as the penalty for fighting is only 5 minutes in the box. I think it's difficult to tell players "OK, you can pound on each other as long as each of you is looking at the other, but NO sucker punches." A player who is pissed off at another player probably isn't TOO concerned with whether the player is looking or not, especially if the other player refuses to turn around and drop the gloves.

That said, I used to have a couple of the Don Cherry tapes, but I don't remember fighting in it. Doesn't the NHL forbid fighting in any commercial tape that uses its footage? I could be incorrect, but I swear my brother had to buy his fight tapes illegally.

(edited by Reverend J Shaft on 12.3.04 0922)
StaggerLee
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#56 Posted on 12.3.04 0844.10
Reposted on: 12.3.11 0845.25
Well, FIGHTING may get you "only" a five minute penalty, but Bertuzzi got a match penalty, and was GONE for the rest of the game. Either way, hockey fights that are consentual in nature are a simple part of the game, a neccesary evil.
Reverend J Shaft
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#57 Posted on 12.3.04 0902.59
Reposted on: 12.3.11 0903.39
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    Well, FIGHTING may get you "only" a five minute penalty, but Bertuzzi got a match penalty, and was GONE for the rest of the game.


That's why I said what I said. Bertuzzi knew the penalty for fighting wasn't a match penalty, but when Moore wouldn't fight, he probably thought "Screw it. I'm going after him anyways." And you saw the result. I think if you allow fighting to be "a part of the game" you open it up to crap like this. Not making a moral judgment (I like fights), just an observation.
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