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The 7 - Football - Panthers and Patriots - Houston we have a ballgame
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raygun
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#21 Posted on 19.1.04 1108.58
Reposted on: 19.1.11 1110.08
I guess this year we won't have to worry about the Super Bowl being a worse game than the Conference Championships. Yesterday's games were straight defensive dominations, with little or no drama. I have to give it up to the Pats and Panthers, though . . . I don't think those wins could have been much more decisive.

Now, this is my personal opinion here, but for me, this has been one terrible year in sports. It all started with a Stanley Cup Final that featured a team I hate (Devils) against a lame expansion team (Ducks). It continued with a World Series pitting a team I hate (Yankees) against a lame expansion team (Marlins). Now, the Super Bowl will be a team I hate (Patriots) versus a lame expansion team (Panthers).

Blech.



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#22 Posted on 19.1.04 1133.46
Reposted on: 19.1.11 1133.53
I have never been rooting so hard for a team that's not the Bills as I did for Carolina last night.

Fuck McNabb and his hype.

Go Panthers!
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#23 Posted on 19.1.04 1153.49
Reposted on: 19.1.11 1154.29
    Originally posted by Grimis
      Originally posted by redsoxnation
      Hopefully, the national media will realize that while a good QB, Donovan McNabb is not a great QB.
    That's right folks, Rush was right and he is overrated? Go figure.

Indeed, months after the incident we're still left to wonder why Rush would take a valid football opinion and attach it to a vile, ignorant, race-baiting statement.

Go figure.
James F'n X
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#24 Posted on 19.1.04 1226.54
Reposted on: 19.1.11 1228.55
The Panthers were the only likeable team left in the NFC after the demise of YOUR Seattle Seahawks. Congrats to them, I just wish it had been Hasselbeck as the unknown QB to make it to the big dance and not Delhomme.

I'll take the Panthers in Houston.
dMr
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#25 Posted on 19.1.04 1352.54
Reposted on: 19.1.11 1353.16
    Originally posted by redsoxnation
    Hopefully, the national media will realize that while a good QB, Donovan McNabb is not a great QB. A great QB can have his offense score more than 13 points in 2 NFC Title games at home.


I refer you to the comments made by Jeb etc. earlier. Theres sweet FA a QB can do to generate points when not only is he banged up, but he also has receivers who only stop dropping balls on the ground to drop them into the hands of the opposition.

Maybe I missed something in the 'great quarterback' blueprint but I'm pretty sure that 'acquiring talented wideouts' was not in the job description.

And last year against the Bucs he had only played one game after being rushed back from a broken ankle. But I guess great players don't get injured at such silly times right?

Just to GET to 3 consecutive NFC championship games makes him great in my book, especially when you consider the supporting cast he's had on offense.

    Originally posted by shockdown
    What doesn't help is Andy Reid's stubborn insistence on "I need to put them in better situations" garbage. Granted, as pointed out by the announce team, the Panthers have already handled two top flight receiving groups (Dallas and St. Louis), but Thrash, Pinkston, and Chad Lewis aren't going to cut it as championship calibur No. 1 receivers. I wasn't too high on the possibility of Terrell Owens coming here, but antics and all, this team needs someone like that.


Couldnt agree more. Christ I'd even take Keyshawn the way things went last night.

Last year Reid seemed hell bent on getting an end to replace Hugh while ignoring the fact that we havent had a half way decent receiver in, oooooh, FOREVER. As a result we have to watch the Cardinals pick up Boldin while we get McDougle, who while having potential, contributed very little this year.

I'll echo your congrats to the Panthers as well. They made the big plays at the big times and played more or less mistake free football, and fully merit their place in the Superbowl.
redsoxnation
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#26 Posted on 19.1.04 1422.09
Reposted on: 19.1.11 1422.11
    Originally posted by dMr
      Originally posted by redsoxnation
      Hopefully, the national media will realize that while a good QB, Donovan McNabb is not a great QB. A great QB can have his offense score more than 13 points in 2 NFC Title games at home.


    I refer you to the comments made by Jeb etc. earlier. Theres sweet FA a QB can do to generate points when not only is he banged up, but he also has receivers who only stop dropping balls on the ground to drop them into the hands of the opposition.

    Maybe I missed something in the 'great quarterback' blueprint but I'm pretty sure that 'acquiring talented wideouts' was not in the job description.

    And last year against the Bucs he had only played one game after being rushed back from a broken ankle. But I guess great players don't get injured at such silly times right?






    Great players find ways to win big games. Before he was hurt in the second quarter, his team had ZERO points. And if anyone wants to throw race into this, my belief that the Giants should have hired Romeo to be their head coach instead of Coughlin slightly hampers that argument. Great QB's get to at least 1 Super Bowl when their team has three chances to get there. Or, is Danny White a great QB, as he had to go on the road for the 3 straight NFC Title Games he lost. Also, until he actually wins a big money game in his career great is not a word that should be applied to St. Peyton Manning either.





BOSsportsfan34
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#27 Posted on 19.1.04 1427.38
Reposted on: 19.1.11 1429.02
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
      Originally posted by BOSsportsfan34
        Originally posted by StaggerLee
          The same place St. Louis was last year and the same place the Jets and Giants are this year.




        Well, I was just pointing out how insane it is to talk about how great a QB is, and how he wins EVERY GAME THAT THE PATS "MUST" WIN, when they didnt go to the playoffs last season. As a Giants fan, I realise we suck this season. But, next season if they do great, I wont be on here talking shit about Kerry Collins being the greatest QB when the past season he was unable to make the post season.



      If you're going to use that argument, then do you diminish the accomplishments of Favre? Elway? Marino? Those guys didn't take their teams to the playoffs every year either.

      Considering Brady is going to the Super Bowl for the 2nd time in his 3 years as a starting QB, that's still pretty good.
dMr
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#28 Posted on 19.1.04 1444.13
Reposted on: 19.1.11 1444.31
    Originally posted by redsoxnation
    Great QB's get to at least 1 Super Bowl when their team has three chances to get there. Or, is Danny White a great QB, as he had to go on the road for the 3 straight NFC Title Games he lost. Also, until he actually wins a big money game in his career great is not a word that should be applied to St. Peyton Manning either.








What absolute piffle.

The notion that 'great QB's win superbowls' is one of the greatest falsehoods in modern sport. Seriously. Go through the records and look at the names that have appeared in and/or won superbowls. There's some great names there sure, but for every Montana theres a Rypien.

No one individual player can win a game never mind get you to a Superbowl be he a QB a halfback or a lineman. It therefor is 100% logical that an individuals ability should be determined by the performance and results of a team.

I suppose Barry Sanders shouldnt be considered a 'great' running back either?

Results in the modern era have increasingly shown that the QB is far from being the pivotal member of a team, with defences increasingly pulling out wins in big games.

Its absolutely hilarious to hear people slagging Peyton Manning once again. They go absolutely silent for 2 weeks when he plays like a freaking god against 2 of the hottest teams in football (both incidentally in big time must win games) and then as soon as his team loses, people are straight back on him.

Bottom line. Individuals NEVER win games. Period.
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#29 Posted on 19.1.04 1450.46
Reposted on: 19.1.11 1453.28
    Originally posted by redsoxnation
    Great players find ways to win big games. Before he was hurt in the second quarter, his team had ZERO points.


I don't know if McNabb should be called *great* or not, but when he got injured his opposition was at most ahead by a touchdown (I don't remember if the injury occured before or after Carolina's touchdown), so its not like Delhomme and the Panthers had done all that much either. Great players find ways to win when they get the opportunity and the time to play. You're denying him two and half quarters to do something. Judge McNabb and Farve by their performances in the first 25 minutes or so of the game last week, and you get a different picture than how the game turned out.

Regarding the Eagles offense, Brian Westbrook seems to do a good job. (when he's not injured and all...)
BOSsportsfan34
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#30 Posted on 19.1.04 1451.46
Reposted on: 19.1.11 1453.31
    Originally posted by dMr
      Originally posted by redsoxnation
      Great QB's get to at least 1 Super Bowl when their team has three chances to get there. Or, is Danny White a great QB, as he had to go on the road for the 3 straight NFC Title Games he lost. Also, until he actually wins a big money game in his career great is not a word that should be applied to St. Peyton Manning either.








    What absolute piffle.

    The notion that 'great QB's win superbowls' is one of the greatest falsehoods in modern sport. Seriously. Go through the records and look at the names that have appeared in and/or won superbowls. There's some great names there sure, but for every Montana theres a Rypien.

    No one individual player can win a game never mind get you to a Superbowl be he a QB a halfback or a lineman. It therefor is 100% logical that an individuals ability should be determined by the performance and results of a team.

    I suppose Barry Sanders shouldnt be considered a 'great' running back either?

    Results in the modern era have increasingly shown that the QB is far from being the pivotal member of a team, with defences increasingly pulling out wins in big games.

    Its absolutely hilarious to hear people slagging Peyton Manning once again. They go absolutely silent for 2 weeks when he plays like a freaking god against 2 of the hottest teams in football (both incidentally in big time must win games) and then as soon as his team loses, people are straight back on him.

    Bottom line. Individuals NEVER win games. Period.


I agree with you on almost everything you said except one thing. I would not have called either Denver or KC "hot" teams. Denver basically gave up after the first quarter and KC has one of the worst defenses I can ever remember an NFL playoff team having.
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#31 Posted on 19.1.04 1500.26
Reposted on: 19.1.11 1500.27
    Originally posted by dMr
      Originally posted by redsoxnation
      Great QB's get to at least 1 Super Bowl when their team has three chances to get there. Or, is Danny White a great QB, as he had to go on the road for the 3 straight NFC Title Games he lost. Also, until he actually wins a big money game in his career great is not a word that should be applied to St. Peyton Manning either.








    What absolute piffle.

    The notion that 'great QB's win superbowls' is one of the greatest falsehoods in modern sport. Seriously. Go through the records and look at the names that have appeared in and/or won superbowls. There's some great names there sure, but for every Montana theres a Rypien.

    No one individual player can win a game never mind get you to a Superbowl be he a QB a halfback or a lineman. It therefor is 100% logical that an individuals ability should be determined by the performance and results of a team.

    I suppose Barry Sanders shouldnt be considered a 'great' running back either?

    Results in the modern era have increasingly shown that the QB is far from being the pivotal member of a team, with defences increasingly pulling out wins in big games.

    Its absolutely hilarious to hear people slagging Peyton Manning once again. They go absolutely silent for 2 weeks when he plays like a freaking god against 2 of the hottest teams in football (both incidentally in big time must win games) and then as soon as his team loses, people are straight back on him.

    Bottom line. Individuals NEVER win games. Period.





Here is the rule I've always used to judge QB's much as Centers are judged in the NBA: Getting to a Super Bowl doesn't make someone a great QB, but not getting to a Super Bowl can keep someone from being a great QB. For historical examples:
Dan Fouts put up huge numbers, got to 2 AFC title games, no Super Bowls. He's always considered very good, not great.
Bernie Kosar went to 3 AFC Title games with the Browns. A good QB, but not considered much more as he never got over the hump.
Marino was considered better than Elway for most of their careers. Elway picks up 2 Super Bowl Titles, and he nudges past Marino and his 1 Super Bowl appearance.

McNabb is a good QB. But a great QB finds ways to win these games. He had a bad leg last year that hampered him? Then why did he play? They seemed to be rolling along well without him the last 6 weeks of the season. If he puts himself on the field, he either thinks he's healthy enough to help the team win, or he is to arrogant to sit and is hurting his team.
As for Barry Sanders, remember, Walter Payton always had a blot on his career until '85. Historically, it will hurt Sanders legacy that he never won a ring or got to a Super Bowl.
dMr
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#32 Posted on 19.1.04 1518.11
Reposted on: 19.1.11 1518.18
    Originally posted by BOSsportsfan34
    I agree with you on almost everything you said except one thing. I would not have called either Denver or KC "hot" teams. Denver basically gave up after the first quarter and KC has one of the worst defenses I can ever remember an NFL playoff team having.


Well Denver pretty much had no choice but to give up after the first quarter, and KC had a whole lot of people think 16-0 for a fair time this season. But 'hot' I'll grant you was probably the wrong word given the Chiefs finish to the season.

Redsox, I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree. The way I see it is if you take away the receivers (Rice et al) that Montana worked with and replaced them with me and a few of my mates, then I absolutely guarantee Montana never makes a Superbowl. He's still just as great though.

Equally if you gave Sanders the Ravens Superbowl winning D to play with along with any half decent QB and he would have more than likely picked up a ring. Again though, his ability remains unchanged.

But if its any consolation I sincerely hope McNabb falls under your definition of great soon ;)
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#33 Posted on 19.1.04 1526.38
Reposted on: 19.1.11 1528.03
    Originally posted by dMr
    Well Denver pretty much had no choice but to give up after the first quarter, and KC had a whole lot of people think 16-0 for a fair time this season. But 'hot' I'll grant you was probably the wrong word given the Chiefs finish to the season.




Denver was still in the game until Denver's defensive backs just stood around pointing at each other and letting Harrison get up and run-in for the TD.
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#34 Posted on 19.1.04 1546.24
Reposted on: 19.1.11 1550.29
    Originally posted by Downtown Bookie
    Indeed, months after the incident we're still left to wonder why Rush would take a valid football opinion and attach it to a vile, ignorant, race-baiting statement.
Because it wasn't race baiting....besides, McNabb is listed as a "great quarterback" by the media.

What exactly does Tom Brady have to do to get that label as he starts his 2nd Super Bowl in two weeks?
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#35 Posted on 19.1.04 1642.31
Reposted on: 19.1.11 1644.11
    Originally posted by Grimis
    What exactly does Tom Brady have to do to get that label as he starts his 2nd Super Bowl in two weeks?


Post huge numbers while doing it?

I have no doubt that McNabb is a good QB, but it's the fact that he's been built up as the sole reason why they are any good that bugs the shit out of me. For all of the hype and all of the credit he's gotten, you would think that he posted Manning-like (the first 2 playoff games) numbers all season.
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#36 Posted on 19.1.04 1705.19
Reposted on: 19.1.11 1706.37
Here's my two things about McNabb:

1) He Did Not Lose This Game. It's as simple as that. His recievers dropped at least EIGHT~! passes for first down. No matter what Andy Reid says, several of them were consistently not on the same page as McNabb and ran different/wrong routes. McNabb continued to put the ball in his recievers hands, and they didn't make the plays. The only other way McNabb could have carried his team was by running for those first downs, and after the injury that clearly was not possible.

2) On Donovan McNabb as a 'Great' Quarterback: Both sides are wrong on this one. His detractors don't give him enough credit, but he also hasn't managed to get to the next level. McNabb is a very good quarterback, and he has the potential to be one of the very greatest quarterbacks, but he's not there yet. Case in point: John Elway. As a long suffering fan of the Denver Donkeys, I know all about 'great' quarterbacks. It took Elway over a decade before he finally stopped getting blown out in the playoffs. And while everyone knew he was a very good quarterback, you couldn't really call him great after the beatings he took in three Superbowls and numerous playoff games.

I don't think it'll take a decade for McNabb and the Eagles to finally put it together. But until he does, McNabb has to settle for being one of the best on the field. But not one of the greatest to play the game.

-Jag
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#37 Posted on 19.1.04 1801.20
Reposted on: 19.1.11 1801.50
    Originally posted by King Of Crap
      Originally posted by Grimis
      What exactly does Tom Brady have to do to get that label as he starts his 2nd Super Bowl in two weeks?


    Post huge numbers while doing it?

    I have no doubt that McNabb is a good QB, but it's the fact that he's been built up as the sole reason why they are any good that bugs the shit out of me. For all of the hype and all of the credit he's gotten, you would think that he posted Manning-like (the first 2 playoff games) numbers all season.


Sorry, but we must be watching different teams. I can name quite a few games -- including the Green Bay game last week -- where he is the sole reason that the Eagles are competitive at all. Hell, pretty much this whole season, because of the injuries on defense, is a statement to that. (You can bring up the winning streak from last year all you want, but AJ Feeley had help from a complete, healthy defense that could actually stop teams; see last year's game at the Vet vs St. Louis for an example). Until and unless he gets more help on offense, that team is dependent on McNabb; if he doesn't play well, or has no options (through injury or incompetant offensive teammates), they will not win many games, at all.
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#38 Posted on 19.1.04 1930.44
Reposted on: 19.1.11 1932.22
    Originally posted by King Of Crap
      Originally posted by Grimis
      What exactly does Tom Brady have to do to get that label as he starts his 2nd Super Bowl in two weeks?


    Post huge numbers while doing it?




He might not have the "huge" numbers like a McNair or Manning, but if the Pats win the Super Bowl, you cannot lump Brady in with "One Hit Wonder" Super Bowl QB's like Mark Rypien, Trent Dilfer, or Jeff Hostedler anymore.

He will join this list of QB's who started for at least 2 Super Bowl winning teams:

Bart Starr
Bob Griese
Terry Bradshaw
Roger Staubach
Jim Plunkett
Joe Montanna
Troy Aikman
John Elway
drjayphd
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#39 Posted on 19.1.04 1936.22
Reposted on: 19.1.11 1938.10
    Originally posted by dMr
    Maybe I missed something in the 'great quarterback' blueprint but I'm pretty sure that 'acquiring talented wideouts' was not in the job description.


Hey, Manning's already doing the job of his offensive coordinator... why not have McNabb as player/GM?

Either way, as a suffering Giants fan, it felt great to see the Iggles do the jay-oh-bee. Only question is, does it still count if you pick the right loser? (I had Titans beating the Panthers in the Super Bowl... as of about halfway through the season.)
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#40 Posted on 19.1.04 2055.42
Reposted on: 19.1.11 2057.48
    Originally posted by dMr
    The way I see it is if you take away the receivers (Rice et al) that Montana worked with and replaced them with me and a few of my mates, then I absolutely guarantee Montana never makes a Superbowl.


This happened, it's called his tenure with the Kansas City Chiefs. I want to say his receivers were J.J Birden, Willie Davis (Willie Green?) and his tight end was Tony Simien(?). He got the Chiefs close a couple of times, but they couldn't win it all.
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