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The 7 - Baseball - And the NEW Hall of Famers are...
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vsp
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#1 Posted on 6.1.04 1315.29
Reposted on: 6.1.11 1315.30
(drumroll...)

Dennis Eckersley and Paul Molitor.

Discuss.

(EDIT: VOTE TOTALS~!)

IN:
-----
Paul Molitor: 431 (85.2%)
Dennis Eckersley: 421 (83.2%)

NOT YET:
--------
Ryne Sandberg: 309 (61.1%)
Bruce Sutter: 301 (59.5%)
Jim Rice: 276 (54.5%)
Andre Dawson: 253 (50%)
"Goose" Gossage: 206 (40.7%)
Lee Smith: 185 (36.6%)
Bert Blyleven: 179 (35.4%)
Jack Morris: 133 (26.3%)
Steve Garvey: 123 (24.3%)
Tommy John: 111 (21.9%)
Alan Trammell: 70 (13.8%)
Don Mattingly: 65 (12.8%)
Dave Concepcion: 57 (11.3%)
Dave Parker: 53 (10.5%)
Dale Murphy: 43 (8.5%)

OFF THE BALLOT:
---------------
Keith Hernandez: 22 (4.3%)
Joe Carter: 19 (3.8%)
Fernando Valenzuela: 19 (3.8%)
Dennis Martinez: 16 (3.2%)
Dave Stieb: 7 (1.4%)
Jim Eisenreich: 3 (0)
Jimmy Key: 3 (0)
Doug Drabek: 2 (0)
Kevin Mitchell: 2 (0)
Juan Samuel: 2 (0)
Cecil Fielder: 1 (0)
Randy Myers: 1 (0)
Terry Pendleton: 1 (0)
Danny Darwin: 0 (0)
Bob Tewksbury: 0 (0)



(edited by vsp on 6.1.04 1123)
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pieman
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#2 Posted on 6.1.04 1319.14
Reposted on: 6.1.11 1320.30
I can't say I am surprised that this is a 2 person class this year. I am gravely disappointed that Bert Blyleven mustered only 35% of the vote. Sandberg and Sutter weren't really that close either. I think Blyleven and Gossage are really getting stiffed.
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#3 Posted on 6.1.04 1413.28
Reposted on: 6.1.11 1413.50
It is a travesty that Ryne Sandberg is not yet in the Hall.

Of course, the people who voted for Randy Myers, Juan Samuel, and Kevin Mitchell should have their ballots revoked...
vsp
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#4 Posted on 6.1.04 1448.16
Reposted on: 6.1.11 1448.44
Bah. I'm just surprised that Bob Tewksbury and Danny Darwin couldn't find one bribable writer to give them a sympathy vote.

Guru Zim
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#5 Posted on 6.1.04 1519.36
Reposted on: 6.1.11 1519.37
    Originally posted by Grimis
    It is a travesty that Ryne Sandberg is not yet in the Hall.

    Of course, the people who voted for Randy Myers, Juan Samuel, and Kevin Mitchell should have their ballots revoked...


C'mon, Kevin Mitchell and Cecil Fielder were like the fat kid in the Little League world series... you have to give them credit for that.

It was really Mitchell who raised the bar and forced steroids on the game. Without Kevin Mitchell there would be no Brady Anderson*.

Surely that's worth something.

ps> Of course, this is just speculation and opinion. I'm not saying they were on the juice - what I'm saying is that they made it obvious what the rewards could be for someone who hit a lot of home runs... and may have provided the incentive for other guys to hit the juice even if they themselves were not on it. You hit 50 today and it's on the radar, but every kid in America doesn't learn your name.

*I have no proof that Brady Anderson was on roids either. I take a cynical view of his one monster season. I'm sure there are many plausible explanations of his performance the preclude steroids and performance enhancing drugs.
Eddie Famous
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#6 Posted on 6.1.04 1816.14
Reposted on: 6.1.11 1816.17
Can anyone give me a reason why Dave Concepcion keeps getting votes?

He was a decidedly average hitter (.267 lifetime), an okay fielder with a weak arm (therefore bouncing his throws to first from the hole)....

AWArulz
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#7 Posted on 6.1.04 1835.20
Reposted on: 6.1.11 1835.25
    Originally posted by Eddie Famous
    Can anyone give me a reason why Dave Concepcion keeps getting votes?

    He was a decidedly average hitter (.267 lifetime), an okay fielder with a weak arm (therefore bouncing his throws to first from the hole)....




4 world series as a starter. 5 LCS, 19 in the bigs, a seemingly good guy. 9 all star appearances, 5 gold gloves, Similar numbers to Pee Wee Reese and Luis Aparicio, PLayed with the same team his whole career.

(edited by AWArulz on 6.1.04 1935)
StaggerLee
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#8 Posted on 6.1.04 1841.12
Reposted on: 6.1.11 1841.25
I cant see how nobody has pointed out that the winningest pitcher of the 80s, and a World Series MVP and winner of World Series' with three different teams isnt in the hall.

Injustice of the year, Jack Morris.
vsp
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#9 Posted on 6.1.04 1906.51
Reposted on: 6.1.11 1907.27
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    I cant see how nobody has pointed out that the winningest pitcher of the 80s, and a World Series MVP and winner of World Series' with three different teams isnt in the hall.

    Injustice of the year, Jack Morris.


High ERA. Playing for good teams helped his win totals.

Morris is sort of the additive inverse of Bert Blyleven, who struggled with somewhat crappy supporting casts through much of his career and is also waiting patiently for Hall admission.

As for Concepcion, writers tend to overvalue role players on championship teams (COUGH COUGH RIZZUTO COUGH) and postseason appearances in general. If Andre Dawson or Ryne Sandberg had been on playoff teams more often, they'd be in the Hall today.


(edited by vsp on 6.1.04 1709)
Eddie Famous
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#10 Posted on 6.1.04 2046.05
Reposted on: 6.1.11 2046.20
numbers: G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI TB BB SO SB CS OBP SLG AVG

Reese: 2166 8058 1338 2170 330 80 126 885 3038 1210 890 232 --- .361 .377 .269

Aparicio: 2599 10230 1335 2677 394 92 83 791 3504 736 742 506 136 .311 .343 .262

Contraption:2488 8723 993 2326 389 48 101 950 3114 736 1186 321 109 .322 .357 .267

Fielding: G GS INN TC PO A E DP PB SB CS RF FPCT

Re: 2129 --- --- 10662 4124 6131 407 1255 --- --- --- --- .962

Ap:2581 --- --- 12930 4548 8016 366 1553 --- --- --- --- .972

Co:2499 --- --- 11595 4245 7024 326 1390 --- --- --- --- .972

Notes to compare: Fielding, about 100 games of Reese's state were for 3b, a couple hundred for Concepcion were at various positions, all of Aparicios were at SS.

I think this shows that Reese and Aparicio had better ranges than Concepcion (comparing total chances per game).

Reese was the more productive player, taking into account OBP, runs scored and rbi per game played. Aparicio was always overvalued as an offensive player, but the HoF gave him extra props for base stealing when it wasn't cool. Concepcion was only marginally better than Aparicio.








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#11 Posted on 6.1.04 2137.41
Reposted on: 6.1.11 2138.10
No-one is going to call me on my fat kid in the little league world series comparison?

Sheesh, I'm beginning to wonder how many of you have me on ignore
TheCow
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#12 Posted on 6.1.04 2202.37
Reposted on: 6.1.11 2204.07
I don't watch 12-year olds (or 14 year-olds, but I'm not going there) play games on national TV.

Honestly, I was surprised Sandberg didn't make it. I mean, I figure it's only a matter of time for him, but it does need to happen, and preferably sooner.

I'm somewhat surprised Eck got in before Gossage; does anyone think this means the HoF is finally getting over its avoidance of closers, or does the fact that Eck started for part of his career carry him in?

Molitor, of course, deserves it.
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#13 Posted on 6.1.04 2202.51
Reposted on: 6.1.11 2204.26
I'd like to see Hawk get into the Hall....yeah, he's a former Marlin, that's pretty much why.

I'm actually surprised Trammell got as much support as he did.

Big Bad
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#14 Posted on 6.1.04 2248.24
Reposted on: 6.1.11 2248.51
I didn't figure Joe Carter was Hall-bound, but off the ballot after his first try? That's cold.

Molitor is a great player and a great man....good on him.
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#15 Posted on 6.1.04 2309.32
Reposted on: 6.1.11 2310.12
    Originally posted by geemoney
    I'd like to see Hawk get into the Hall....yeah, he's a former Marlin, that's pretty much why.

    I'm actually surprised Trammell got as much support as he did.




Trammel was probably THE most consistant SS not named Ripken in the 80s, played all his seasons with one team, was part of the longest serving SS/2B combination in history, and was an all star several times.

And, unlike what somebody said earlier, the Tigers were NOT a powerhouse team in the 80s.
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#16 Posted on 6.1.04 2315.19
Reposted on: 6.1.11 2316.02
    Originally posted by Guru Zim
    No-one is going to call me on my fat kid in the little league world series comparison?

    Sheesh, I'm beginning to wonder how many of you have me on ignore


Lloyd McClendon?
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#17 Posted on 7.1.04 0154.51
Reposted on: 7.1.11 0154.55
No love for Keith Hernandez, either. He was my favorite player growing up...
Downtown Bookie
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#18 Posted on 7.1.04 0255.55
Reposted on: 7.1.11 0256.21
    Originally posted by Eddie Famous
    Reese was the more productive player, taking into account OBP, runs scored and rbi per game played.


Reese also played in an era when overall offensive production was higher, and played the majority of his games in Ebbets Field, a much more favorable hitters park than Riverfront Stadium. Adjust for era and ballpark effects and the difference in offense between Reese and Concepcion isn't that substantial.

    Originally posted by Eddie Famous
    He was a decidedly average hitter (.267 lifetime), an okay fielder with a weak arm (therefore bouncing his throws to first from the hole).


    Originally posted by The Sporting News, April 26, 1975
    It was Concepcion's fluid motion in the field, his range and his strong throwing arm that first attracted [Sparky] Anderson's attention...Not many shortstops in the major leagues have a throwing arm as strong as that of Concepcion, claims Anderson. And none has a stronger arm.


    Originally posted by The Cow
    I'm somewhat surprised Eck got in before Gossage; does anyone think this means the HoF is finally getting over its avoidance of closers, or does the fact that Eck started for part of his career carry him in?



It would be nice to see Bruce Sutter, Gossage, and even Lee Smith get more support from the Hall of Fame voters, especially when you consider that the voters who show so little love for relief pitchers are the same people who spend the rest of the year writing articles about how teams can't win without a strong bullpen.
Eddie Famous
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#19 Posted on 7.1.04 0430.56
Reposted on: 7.1.11 0431.47
    Originally posted by Downtown Bookie
      Originally posted by Eddie Famous
      Reese was the more productive player, taking into account OBP, runs scored and rbi per game played.


    Reese also played in an era when overall offensive production was higher, and played the majority of his games in Ebbets Field, a much more favorable hitters park than Riverfront Stadium. Adjust for era and ballpark effects and the difference in offense between Reese and Concepcion isn't that substantial.

      Originally posted by Eddie Famous
      He was a decidedly average hitter (.267 lifetime), an okay fielder with a weak arm (therefore bouncing his throws to first from the hole).


      Originally posted by The Sporting News, April 26, 1975
      It was Concepcion's fluid motion in the field, his range and his strong throwing arm that first attracted [Sparky] Anderson's attention...Not many shortstops in the major leagues have a throwing arm as strong as that of Concepcion, claims Anderson. And none has a stronger arm.





    Reese's walk total was substantially higher...Concepcion's K total substantially higher...there is really no comparison there. Reese was a much better offensive player.

    As far as Anderson goes...Torey Lovullo.

    If Concepcion was all that to him, why was he platooned with Woody Woodward and Darrel Chaney for his first three-four years?
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#20 Posted on 7.1.04 0448.27
Reposted on: 7.1.11 0448.40
BIG UPS to Molly for getting what he deserved on the first ballot...swept right in.

It broke my heart when he went to Toronto, right after a hot '92 AL East race between the Brew Crew and Blue Jays...only to win the World Series and MVP honors. Shows you what kind of player he was.

Finally, he and Robin Yount are on the same team again. Bring on Jim Gantner! :-)

I believe Paul has said he's going in as a Brewer...man, I sure hope so. After all, he won Series MVP with Toronto, and finished with his hometown Twinkies...c'mon, old-school Brewers cap!

Props to Eck as well...the definition of "big-game closer." Even if Milwaukee owned the A's in the aforementioned '92. :-)
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