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The 7 - Pro Wrestling - Rules and Referees Register and log in to post!
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BigDaddyLoco
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#1 Posted on 28.12.03 1725.24
Reposted on: 28.12.10 1725.29
One of the things I've noticed when watching these Ric Flair DVD's is that there is a standard in all the early matches that is now lost today. The 'Attitude Era' and ECW really changed the way the game is played, and we've really lost something because of it.

Sure the referees were still *blind*, but they didn't miss EVERYTHING. They demanded clean breaks when the tie-up went into the ropes. They checked to see if the shoulders were flush on the mat. They warned about the closed fists and the hair pulls. They checked your knee pads for Foriegn Objects. All of this was consistent across the board and really added heat to a heel when he'd give you the cheap shot in the ropes or held the tights.

I know we will never go back to the glory days seen on the Flair DVD, but it would be nice if they brought in an 'oldschool' type of referee, who wasn't a Superman and could still be duped, who was known as a bit of a hard ass. A Mills Lane type of ref, if you will. I think it would really add a dimision to the matches he oversaw that is missing a lot these days.
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AWArulz
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#2 Posted on 28.12.03 1907.37
Reposted on: 28.12.10 1907.37
    Originally posted by BigDaddyLoco
    I know we will never go back to the glory days seen on the Flair DVD, but it would be nice if they brought in an 'oldschool' type of referee, who wasn't a Superman and could still be duped, who was known as a bit of a hard ass. A Mills Lane type of ref, if you will. I think it would really add a dimision to the matches he oversaw that is missing a lot these days.


And I think that's part of the Vibe they want you to think about when they add a "special guest ref" (SCSA or HBK or whoever). You aren't supposed to think about them getting involved, but being strong enough to enforce your wished for a fair, clean match. Is there a wrestler out there who can't move or bump too well who wants to stay in the action? Here's your role. Gotta have good knees tho - so Hogan, Nash, you're out.

Don't we have a Wiener who is going to Ref school here in the near future?

Swordsman Yen
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#3 Posted on 28.12.03 1928.06
Reposted on: 28.12.10 1929.01
Three words: Rugged Ronnie Garvin.
JST
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#4 Posted on 29.12.03 0024.52
Reposted on: 29.12.10 0025.13
I be a referee. While I'm nowhere near Mills Lane, I do try and pattern my style on Earl Hebner and Mike Chioda.

(edited by Tod deKindes on 29.12.03 0125)
Tribal Prophet
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#5 Posted on 29.12.03 0047.35
Reposted on: 29.12.10 0048.06
    Originally posted by Tod deKindes
    I do try and pattern my style on Earl Hebner


So you also ruin the last 5 seconds of every important match by taking forever. For. Each. Pin. Count?

Forget Triple H, the WWE's REAL worst heat stealer is Hebner.


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JST
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#6 Posted on 29.12.03 0050.43
Reposted on: 29.12.10 0050.45
Naw, that would be the Chioda part.

When I say Hebner, I tend to get into shoving matches with the wrestlers.
Mild Mannered Madman
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#7 Posted on 29.12.03 0306.09
Reposted on: 29.12.10 0306.58
    Originally posted by Tribal Prophet
      Originally posted by Tod deKindes
      I do try and pattern my style on Earl Hebner


    So you also ruin the last 5 seconds of every important match by taking forever. For. Each. Pin. Count?

    Forget Triple H, the WWE's REAL worst heat stealer is Hebner.


    Tribal Prophet


A ref that worked for one of the promotions I used to work for actually got yelled at for "Hebnerizing" a count. =)
Hogan's My Dad
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#8 Posted on 29.12.03 0359.15
Reposted on: 29.12.10 0359.20
My brother and I did some reffing at indies so small I don't recall the names of anyone who performed or what the event was called. We played well into ref stereotypes. He was "Five Chance McGraw" who let each opponent break the rules blatantly five times before DQing. I was more straitlaced, and kicked it old school like you said. Doesn't help when the talent just jumps off things and can't sell. I was knee-deep in suck that afternoon, lemme tell ya.
JoshMann
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#9 Posted on 29.12.03 0759.33
Reposted on: 29.12.10 0800.30
    Originally posted by Tod deKindes
    Naw, that would be the Chioda part.

    When I say Hebner, I tend to get into shoving matches with the wrestlers.


Which he stole from Tommy Young [from the NWA in the mid/late 80s] in the first place. :)
Matt Tracker
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#10 Posted on 29.12.03 0911.01
Reposted on: 29.12.10 0912.25
    Originally posted by Blanket Jackson
    Which he stole from Tommy Young [from the NWA in the mid/late 80s] in the first place. :)


Tommy had this great bit to end matches. When the faces finally rebounded from the heel cheating, they'd hit the finisher from nowhere and grab a pin. Tommy would SOAR in from the other side of the ring for the pin, slam the three counts and then launch his arm forward to point to the winner. It all added a punch of energy to the finish.

(typo)

(edited by Matt Tracker on 29.12.03 0814)
JoshMann
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#11 Posted on 29.12.03 0922.40
Reposted on: 29.12.10 0923.14
Ah yes, the "let me come running in from 20 feet away going around a corner like I'm a cat in the living room that has an appointment in the next room" cover spot.

That and his facial expressions anytime Flair ever chopped the living shit out of someone are priceless.

(edited by Blanket Jackson on 29.12.03 1022)
BigVitoMark
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#12 Posted on 29.12.03 1133.34
Reposted on: 29.12.10 1134.58
I think the role of the ref changed when the presentation of the product changed. Back in the day when the business was still protected and they tried to pass it off as legitimate competition between the wrestlers the referees had to adhere strictly to the rules (holding the tag rope, five count in the ropes, etc) in order to preserve that perception that what was happening was an actual athletic contest.

It's kinda like how whenever the illegal man in a tag match would come in to break up the pin it would have to be a decided break-up, with enough force to knock the guy off the cover or at least allow the man being pinned to get his shoulder up. Now any kind of tap from someone not involved in the fall stops the count and it looks kinda stupid.

Now that it's openly just a show, I guess they feel the details aren't as important as they used to be - no facade to keep up anymore.
BigDaddyLoco
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#13 Posted on 29.12.03 1550.26
Reposted on: 29.12.10 1551.19
    Originally posted by BigVitoMark
    I think the role of the ref changed when the presentation of the product changed. Back in the day when the business was still protected and they tried to pass it off as legitimate competition between the wrestlers the referees had to adhere strictly to the rules (holding the tag rope, five count in the ropes, etc) in order to preserve that perception that what was happening was an actual athletic contest.

    It's kinda like how whenever the illegal man in a tag match would come in to break up the pin it would have to be a decided break-up, with enough force to knock the guy off the cover or at least allow the man being pinned to get his shoulder up. Now any kind of tap from someone not involved in the fall stops the count and it looks kinda stupid.

    Now that it's openly just a show, I guess they feel the details aren't as important as they used to be - no facade to keep up anymore.


If that's true then could the Bill Alphonso 'call it down the middle' gimmick work in today's WWE?

I think it could be beautiful if it wasn't hotshotted for some lowly PPV and ended with the referee wrestling a match.
MonteCarl
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#14 Posted on 29.12.03 1647.20
Reposted on: 29.12.10 1647.57
I, too, noticed this while watching Tommy Young on the Ric Flair DVD. Tommy was always one of my favorie refs back in the day, and I didn't even realize it until watching this DVD again. Like a lot of other kids, me and my brothers used to make wrestling tapes in our basement. Whenever I was the ref, I always did the "slide the hand under the shoulders between the counts to make sure the shoulder is still down" move. There was even a match where there was a pinfall towards the turnbuckle post where (I think it was) Steamboat's head was facing the post with Flair on top of him. Nowhere for Tommy to go to make the count and get a good look at the shoulders. So he jumped outside the ring and made the count from the floor around the turnbuckle post. That was good. Now that I'm planning on training to be a wrestling ref, I think I'm gonna watch that DVD even more to steal a few of Tommy's moves. The flying around the ring, the strict adherence to the rules, the 3-count technique....he was a great ref.

--Monte N
JoshMann
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#15 Posted on 29.12.03 1757.50
Reposted on: 29.12.10 1759.01
    Originally posted by BigDaddyLoco

    I think it could be beautiful if it wasn't hotshotted for some lowly PPV and ended with the referee wrestling a match.


Well, the thing is that in 1995, the atmosphere for matches in ECW was a bit more (for lack of a better word) anarcharic than, say the WWE of 2003. And it's been said before but it was the sheer genius of the angle of bringing in a referree that actually ENFORCED THE RULES in this pit of chaos that was the ECW Arena.

If they were ever going to cop that angle in the WWF/E, the best time would have been in 1998 when they had Austin as the top guy and at the time when the WWF was at its most ECW-like.

Today considering how much things have tamed down from 5 years ago, I think the ship on that angle has sailed.
JST
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#16 Posted on 29.12.03 1801.35
Reposted on: 29.12.10 1802.02
You don't need a huge 3-month training to become a referee. When I started out, all I did was basically imitate what I saw on TV. Sure, you need to learn good timing, speed, staying out of the way, etc; but you pick that up over time. If there's any training required, it's possibly to take bumps and such, but your standard ref bump will be nothing more than the usual missed charge in the corner or the stray boot of a guy hitting you in the head from a bodyslam.
BigVitoMark
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#17 Posted on 30.12.03 1058.14
Reposted on: 30.12.10 1058.32
I don't know about the rest of you, but I've been waiting for years for someone to use the guest referee/bogus finish like Flair did last night. When he DQ'd the Dudleyz for using a closed fist I nearly fell out of my seat laughing. Now I'm just waiting for the day that a guest referee rules a submission on an elementary hold like a reverse chinlock.
Swordsman Yen
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#18 Posted on 30.12.03 1316.14
Reposted on: 30.12.10 1317.30
    Originally posted by BigVitoMark
    I don't know about the rest of you, but I've been waiting for years for someone to use the guest referee/bogus finish like Flair did last night. When he DQ'd the Dudleyz for using a closed fist I nearly fell out of my seat laughing. Now I'm just waiting for the day that a guest referee rules a submission on an elementary hold like a reverse chinlock.


Personally, I'd like to see somebody score a pinfall win off the test of strength.
Taff
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#19 Posted on 4.1.04 1429.00
Reposted on: 4.1.11 1429.01
if ure looking for rules and ref bumps there is a moment when there is one referee knocked out in the Austin vs Hall match of Wrestlemania 18 when another referee comes skidding into the ring and he flies nearly out the other end.
It's brilliant then he gets elbowed by Kevin Nash therefore taking his ref bump and stopping the count.
I think it was kid hebner
Zeruel
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#20 Posted on 4.1.04 1607.48
Reposted on: 4.1.11 1609.56
    Originally posted by Tod deKindes
    I do try and pattern my style on Earl Hebner


Do you to the "Violent leg whip" when you know you have to do a 2.99999 count?


Because of Earl, I'd neveer watch his hand, the wrestlers or anything else than Earls legs for that leg whip during the 3 count.


(edited by rikidozan on 4.1.04 1708)
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