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The 7 - Site Bashing - Time for more Keith Bashing.
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Merc
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#21 Posted on 22.12.03 0443.48
Reposted on: 22.12.10 0444.24
    Originally posted by PoorlyToldJoke
    As far as being a pompous ass.. I am disagreeing. Strongly and vocally, at things that I have seen that he has done.

Pompous: Characterized by excessive self-esteem or exaggerated dignity; pretentious (From dictionary.com)
That seems pretty accurate to me.
As far as anything else goes, I could care less about the music, who likes who, who sells the most seats. Fuck, the Guy who won Australian Idol went MegaMultiPlatinum in the first week and his songs are just crap. Pearl Jam were good, still can be at times. Def Leppard had 1 HUGE album that I hated at the time, but like more now. Gunners were my favourite band. Nirvana were/are overrated. Oasis probably went multi platinum here. I owned Dr Feelgood until it warped in the car a few summers ago.
All in all it's not worth shit to anyone else, but hopefully when Scott writes some people who read it find it entertaining/interesting. Hell, some of the stuff you've written in this thread has entertained me. Thanks.
SC
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#22 Posted on 22.12.03 0628.15
Reposted on: 22.12.10 0628.18
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    Oasis went triple platinum? In what country? Not the USA.


I think the point is that Oasis is still selling records and making a lot of money, even if it isn't here. We aren't the only country in the world where you can buy albums.

    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    MIGHTY JANES ADDICTION cant even sell enough tickets with Marilyn Manson to support a tour.


I don't like Jane's Addiction, like, at all, but one very valid problem here may be that you're sticking three bands with very little in common on one (assumedly) expensive bill, and there's certainly no guarantee that anyone who likes Jane's will like Manson, or anyone who likes the Used will like either of them, etc. Also Marilyn Manson is no commercial force anymore either.
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#23 Posted on 22.12.03 0949.51
Reposted on: 22.12.10 0949.53
    Originally posted by ScottieKStones
      Originally posted by StaggerLee
      Oasis went triple platinum? In what country? Not the USA.


    I think the point is that Oasis is still selling records and making a lot of money, even if it isn't here. We aren't the only country in the world where you can buy albums.

      Originally posted by StaggerLee
      MIGHTY JANES ADDICTION cant even sell enough tickets with Marilyn Manson to support a tour.


    I don't like Jane's Addiction, like, at all, but one very valid problem here may be that you're sticking three bands with very little in common on one (assumedly) expensive bill, and there's certainly no guarantee that anyone who likes Jane's will like Manson, or anyone who likes the Used will like either of them, etc. Also Marilyn Manson is no commercial force anymore either.




The oasis comment, you are right, but their last album had a big single on it called "Stop crying your heart out".. It sold records. I think people are missing my point. My point was how quickly butt rock dropped off of the face of the earth. Generally, with every trend, the inspired bands will still manage to sell records, and have hits, and it tends to leave the rest behind. Dr Dre sold records long after west coast gangsta rap died. Boy bands are at this point dead, Justin Timberlake still sells records. Grunge died. Stone Temple pilots (Until their recent demise) and Pearl jam still go platnium and sell out arenas. Nirvanas back catalog still sells like mad, and a greatest hits album with one new song, sells 6 million records. Who from the 80's metal era is still doing anything like that? It dropped off the face of the earth because it was a pop trend, with no substance.

I'm not even arguing for these bands. I like Nirvana. I don't care for Pearl Jams music, but I have to respect their ethics. I can respect anyone who walks away from millions of dollars by refusing to make videos. My tastes lean more towards indie rock guys like The Afghan Whigs, or Death Cab for Cutie, or goth stuff with guys who look just as ridiculous as any hair metal band ever did, like The Cure or The Smiths. I would never suggest that album sales = greatness. I just use them as a decent way to figure out staying power. I like music that is music. I like music that says something. I go to concerts to see bands play music, not dance around, synchronize kick or headbang. I like bands that grow with each album, like Radiohead. Oh, and just so you know, Dave Navarro from Janes Addiction could play most of the hair metal guys under the table. Only Eddie or Vai could outplay him.



For the people who got in a tizzy about me agreeing with netcop on a review, here is the thing. I don't ALWAYS disagree with him. As a matter of fact, a few years ago, I pretty much always did agree with him. It's just as this new "American Indy" style pops up, I see him rating it very highly, while complaining about the ECW spotfests. It's the same basic formula. THe X division stuff is influenced mainly by guys like RVD and Sabu, with some lucha thrown in. They have cranked it up a bit, maybe hit more spots.. But honestly, I think the Jerry Lynn RVD matches were about the epitome of what a spotfest can be. They were good matches. I would give them ***1/2 stars. There were too many things wrong with those matches to go higher, and it had to do with both of their inabilities to put together a sensible match, or do any long term selling that meant anything. If you like spotfests, great. The problem is, that it deadens the senses. Shawn Michaels moonsault against Vader.. Would that have been as spectacular if he had been doing flips and half gainers the entire time? Of course not. You build to your high spots for maximum effect. It's what smart wrestlers do. Lynn and RVD are alright wrestlers, and they are both twice the wrestlers that guys like Styles, LowKi, Chris Daniels or the Amazing Red are.

That, is my problem. That either his opinions have changed, which is valid, or his standards have been lowered. Or he's just not consistant.
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#24 Posted on 22.12.03 1015.48
Reposted on: 22.12.10 1016.12
    Originally posted by PoorlyToldJoke
    My argument, is that it didn't last because it sucked. Pink Floyd will be on radio stations in 50 years. Led Zepplin will be on radio stations in 50 years. Nirvana and Pearl Jam will be the same. Radiohead and Tool more than likely will too. Try to find a station that has Motley crue in it's regular rotation, that isn't a niche station.


Here in Seattle, still the grunge capital of the free world as far as I know, KISW-FM plays a fair amount of hair metal in their rotation with the Zeppelin, AC/DC, Metallica and the like. Whitesnake, Poison, Motley Cre and other staples of the 80s get plenty of play.

As an aside, I'm totally pissed off that 96.5 "the Point" just changed their format from 80s pop to alternative...that three alternative stations PLUS KISW (who plays a fair amount of Seattle rock, including "Far Behind" by Candlebox EVERY DAMN DAY DURING MY RIDE HOME). Does a market really need THREE alternative stations?
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#25 Posted on 22.12.03 1541.08
Reposted on: 22.12.10 1542.08

    That, is my problem. That either his opinions have changed, which is valid, or his standards have been lowered. Or he's just not consistant.


Or you're attributing your own tastes and standards to me and assuming that if there's an inconsistency therein, it must be with me.

You can't just say the ECW matches are the "same thing" as the "new American indy style" and therefore decree that I'm the one being inconsistent. Your tastes are your own, don't go projecting them onto me and then blame me for having differing opinions. I like what I like.

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#26 Posted on 22.12.03 1550.59
Reposted on: 22.12.10 1551.22
(deleted by CRZ on 22.12.03 1414)
PoorlyToldJoke
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#27 Posted on 22.12.03 1843.23
Reposted on: 22.12.10 1843.55
    Originally posted by rspwfaq

      That, is my problem. That either his opinions have changed, which is valid, or his standards have been lowered. Or he's just not consistant.


    Or you're attributing your own tastes and standards to me and assuming that if there's an inconsistency therein, it must be with me.

    You can't just say the ECW matches are the "same thing" as the "new American indy style" and therefore decree that I'm the one being inconsistent. Your tastes are your own, don't go projecting them onto me and then blame me for having differing opinions. I like what I like.




THey are different sets of people, but it's the same sort of match. It's all the flippy floppity goodness of RVD and Sabu, with all of the headdropping goodness of watching an AJPW highlight reel from 1995. I don't suppose it is fair to consider them the exact same match, but there is a certain evolution to it, and none of the evolution includes learning how to wrestle. They learned how to be stiff but not safe in most of their cases.

I understand that you like what you like. But when you give snowflakes to stuff, it's to add some sort of consistancy to your reviews, right? Eh. Fuck it. It's all subjective. I just really hate the spotfests, and it eats me up to see them given **** and higher because I think of other matches that I have liked that have been rated like that, and can think of 4000 reasons why they don't compare.
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#28 Posted on 22.12.03 1909.33
Reposted on: 22.12.10 1913.50
Why are you placing so much importance on what Scott Keith thinks of a wrestling match? Are you afraid that he's brainwashing the "IWC" with his star ratings? How does this affect your life?

Are you desperately seeking some sort of validation for your opinions on matches compared to Scott's? His rants are there for entertainment and his subjective opinion on a show. They're not there as some sort of historical fact of how good a wrestling match is.

It always bugs me when people do this with him or Meltzer or Keller and start bringing up star ratings from years past and comparing them. Why did you give this *** 1/2 and this *** 3/4? But you gave this *** and this ** when this ** was better then that match before.

You're putting way too much stock in one person's opinion of a match at a given time.

It's like you're on some kind of over exaggerated self-importance kick where the world NEEDS to know YOUR OPINION on matches because you're the definitive expert in the field and everyone should wait and form their opinions based on yours! We need you to tell us what we should like!

If you don't like what Scott Keith rates matches, click that little X in the corner of your browser, and be satisfied that you just saw a good match. No one is waiting for your opinion, they can form their own.
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#29 Posted on 22.12.03 1921.16
Reposted on: 22.12.10 1921.44
    Originally posted by fuelinjected
    Why are you placing so much importance on what Scott Keith thinks of a wrestling match? Are you afraid that he's brainwashing the "IWC" with his star ratings? How does this affect your life?

    Are you desperately seeking some sort of validation for your opinions on matches compared to Scott's? His rants are there for entertainment and his subjective opinion on a show. They're not there as some sort of historical fact of how good a wrestling match is.

    It always bugs me when people do this with him or Meltzer or Keller and start bringing up star ratings from years past and comparing them. Why did you give this *** 1/2 and this *** 3/4? But you gave this *** and this ** when this ** was better then that match before.

    You're putting way too much stock in one person's opinion of a match at a given time.

    It's like you're on some kind of over exaggerated self-importance kick where the world NEEDS to know YOUR OPINION on matches because you're the definitive expert in the field and everyone should wait and form their opinions based on yours! We need you to tell us what we should like!

    If you don't like what Scott Keith rates matches, click that little X in the corner of your browser, and be satisfied that you just saw a good match. No one is waiting for your opinion, they can form their own.




Blah blah blah. And you're posting on a message board too. Why? So people can hear your opinions. That's what they are for. Discussion. That's all.



(edited by PoorlyToldJoke on 22.12.03 1722)
fuelinjected
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#30 Posted on 22.12.03 1927.32
Reposted on: 22.12.10 1929.02
You're not discussing anything. You're rambling on and on about one man's opinions on matches. You didn't even answer any of my questions. So much for a discussion.
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#31 Posted on 22.12.03 2055.00
Reposted on: 22.12.10 2056.45
    Originally posted by fuelinjected
    You're not discussing anything. You're rambling on and on about one man's opinions on matches. You didn't even answer any of my questions. So much for a discussion.



Sorry. I thought those questions were rhetorical. I didn't think they really needed answering. let me answer them for you

No. I don't think he is brainwashing the IWC. I'm not really placing that much importance on his ability to rate matches. I'm asking a question. The question is two fold. Why complain about spot fests in the RVD/Sabu time period, but then come and give spotfest in this time period ****-***** stars? Has the level of work declined so much that we have lowered the bar? I would think that a **** match is a pretty fantastic match, and could be a moty contender. I find that there are enough annoying things about most of the X-div/ROH matches (I will consider them the same basic thing since they seem to use the same basic players) to keep them from ever going above ***1/2 stars, mainly because of their lack of pacing and psychology.. Flip, headdrop, flip, headdrop, headdrop, Flip, Bigger flip, Bigger headdrop, Finisher. To rate a match as 4 stars, you are saying that it compares equally to matches of the same rating. Right?


Am I desperately seeking validation for my blah blah blah. No. I am trying to start a discussion, because I think we have lowered the bar on what is considered good wrestling. If RVD vs Jerry Lynn was *****, what was Steamboat Flair? What was Bret Austin in the I quit match? What were all the other matches where they were out performed, not by a little, but by a lot. If LowKi vs Amazing Red is ****1/2 stars, where does that put the Shawn/Razor ladder matches? How about Shawn/Foley which was given a similer rating? I can go to the circus and see guys in tights doing flips.


As far as my exaggerated ego, and the world NEEDING to KNOW.. This, is a message board. People post here, because they want to discuss, and want other people to read their opinions. Right? To comment on them, to debate them. Keith posts his reviews in a public forum. Some I like, some I don't. I'm commenting on something that he has written, that I didn't agree with. I posted it on here as opposed to wrestlingclassics or otherarena. because I knew he would read it here, and that possibly he would take up the debate.

As far as no one waiting for my opinion. You whined when you didn't get it. So at least one person is.
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#32 Posted on 22.12.03 2116.36
Reposted on: 22.12.10 2117.35
You said you're not placing importance on his match ratings yet you go into a long winded diatribe about one match being better then another based on his silly star ratings.

    Originally posted by PoorlyToldJoke
    Am I desperately seeking validation for my blah blah blah. No. I am trying to start a discussion, because I think we have lowered the bar on what is considered good wrestling.


Who is WE? "We" are not rating these matches that you have problems with. "We" are not Scott Keith. Scott Keith is not the voice of everyone on the internet. So "we" have lower standards because of Scott Keith's star rating system?

If you think wrestling fans in general have lowered their expectations and standards, then try to start a discussion about it but using Scott Keith's star ratings to justify that position is absurd.

    Originally posted by PoorlyToldJoke
    As far as my exaggerated ego, and the world NEEDING to KNOW.. This, is a message board. People post here, because they want to discuss, and want other people to read their opinions. Right? To comment on them, to debate them. Keith posts his reviews in a public forum. Some I like, some I don't. I'm commenting on something that he has written, that I didn't agree with. I posted it on here as opposed to wrestlingclassics or otherarena. because I knew he would read it here, and that possibly he would take up the debate.


So are message boards here to have a discussion among wrestling fans or for you to bait an internet writer into reading your gripes with his star rating system? Why didn't you just send him an email?

If your intent was to get into a discussion about lowering standards, you should have just started a thread in the appropriate forum about it with some kind of backup beyond one man's star ratings.
CRZ
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#33 Posted on 23.12.03 0108.08
Reposted on: 23.12.10 0109.26
    Originally posted by fuelinjected
    If your intent was to get into a discussion about lowering standards, you should have just started a thread in the appropriate forum about it with some kind of backup beyond one man's star ratings.
This *is* an appropriate forum. I'd like to see you back out so Scott could speak for himself. Why isn't he allowed to raise a point, then repeat that point if he doesn't feel the response provided properly addressed it? That misses the point of this forum.

And if he *isn't* interested in doing that, I could just close this thread right now and you all can take the hair metal discussion out of Site Bashing and onto the KZiM Tower.
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#34 Posted on 23.12.03 0158.32
Reposted on: 23.12.10 0159.01
    Originally posted by PoorlyToldJoke
    The oasis comment, you are right, but their last album had a big single on it called "Stop crying your heart out".. It sold records. I think people are missing my point. My point was how quickly butt rock dropped off of the face of the earth. Generally, with every trend, the inspired bands will still manage to sell records, and have hits, and it tends to leave the rest behind. Dr Dre sold records long after west coast gangsta rap died. Who from the 80's metal era is still doing anything like that? It dropped off the face of the earth because it was a pop trend, with no substance. I would never suggest that album sales = greatness. I go to concerts to see bands play music, not dance around, synchronize kick or headbang. Oh, and just so you know, Dave Navarro from Janes Addiction could play most of the hair metal guys under the table. Only Eddie or Vai could outplay him.


Oasis sold a bunch of records mainly in Europe. But, I dont live there, so basically, they are off the radar screen. Hell Robbie Williams sells a millions in the UK too, but I bet if you showed 100 people in America his photo, maybe 10 could identify him, if that many.

I cant figure out something you said though, you say that record sales don't equal greatness, but only the inspired bands continue to sell records. So, the bands that continue to sell records arent great?

Also our local rock station here in St Louis (http://www.k-hits.com) plays Motley Crue, Ratt, Van Halen, Dio, Whitesnake, Bon Jovi, Poison, Cinderella, and Skid Row.

If going to a concert is just wathcing people play thier music, fine, but if I am spending 30 or more dollars, I want to be entertained. If a band can play thier songs that I enjoy, AND put on a great show, to me, its all the better. If I wanted to see sombody stand around and stare at thier shoes, I would go to the DMV and hang out.


BTW, Any of the following could outplay Dave "I couldnt makeit in RHCP" Navarro
Jeff Watson
Brad Gillis
Steve Stevens
Warren DiMartini
Bruce Kulick
Richie Sambora
Adrian Smith
Nuno Betticourt (or however you spell his name)
Steve Clark
Vivian Campbell
Adrian Vandenberg
Tommy Skeoch
Vernon Reid
Vinnie Vincent
Dave Murray
John Norum
John Sykes
Eddie Clark
Steve Morse


(edited by StaggerLee on 23.12.03 0000)
Barbwire Mike
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#35 Posted on 23.12.03 1719.49
Reposted on: 23.12.10 1720.03
    Originally posted by PoorlyToldJoke
    There are good spotfests and bad spotfests. The problem is, I don't really ever think there can be a ***** spotfest, just by nature of the beast.

I'm curious how long you've been a fan. Long enough to remember the Rey/Psichosis/Juvi matches that won all "match of the year" awards two years running and left every single person just getting educated to the style with their mouths agape?
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#36 Posted on 23.12.03 1926.29
Reposted on: 23.12.10 1926.51
    Originally posted by Barbwire Mike
      Originally posted by PoorlyToldJoke
      There are good spotfests and bad spotfests. The problem is, I don't really ever think there can be a ***** spotfest, just by nature of the beast.

    I'm curious how long you've been a fan. Long enough to remember the Rey/Psichosis/Juvi matches that won all "match of the year" awards two years running and left every single person just getting educated to the style with their mouths agape?



I've been a wrestling fan for about 20 years now. Now, there is a definate difference between Lucha, and spotfests. I will not pretend to be extremely well versed in Lucha. The style never really appealed to me much, but I can definately tell the differences in what Juventuud is doing vs say, what Teddy Hart does. Lucha has a flow. It's pacing, when it's good, is just non stop. But there is a definate way the matches flow. Bad lucha looks pretty much like the american indy style that I am talking about. I apologise for labeling at such, as Keith seemed to mock the term, but it just seems to me that the indys are prevelantly pushing this sort of Jr. wrestling, made up of guys who saw the highlight reels of the mid 90's NJPW jr stuff, and the mid to late 90's AJPW heavyweight stuff, and they didn't realize that it was just highlights, and that there were things going on in between the high spots.

PoorlyToldJoke

Ps- Since I have thrown a few suck ups in here, I might as well throw another. If you work with Lethal Wrestling, you should really push for NormanB to make "What's going on" a weekly thing again. Easily my favorite wrestling column.
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#37 Posted on 23.12.03 1937.39
Reposted on: 23.12.10 1938.41
I see where you're coming from, but the early lucha matches in ECW really were devoid of psychology, it was the rapid succession of unbelievable high spots made them masterpieces. I'm staying out of the rest of the arguments in here (AiC ROCKS!!) but Keith is right, if it's the very best of it's kind, any kind of "niche" match can rise to *****. That way you have something tangible to compare others in its genre against rather than comparing every match in wrestling to a Steamboat/Flair.

And I'll definitely pass the message on. We'd like to get as much output out of Norm as possible before someone realizes what a crime it is he's not getting paid to write. Thanks for sayin'.
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#38 Posted on 23.12.03 2217.43
Reposted on: 23.12.10 2218.19

    Bad lucha looks pretty much like the american indy style that I am talking about.


If you really think that's true, you have no idea about the many different flavors of bad lucha.
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#39 Posted on 24.12.03 0153.43
Reposted on: 24.12.10 0153.43
    Originally posted by thecubsfan

      Bad lucha looks pretty much like the american indy style that I am talking about.


    If you really think that's true, you have no idea about the many different flavors of bad lucha.


this is very true. I will admit to not be very well versed in the Lucha style, other than what I have watched on Galavision, and the ECW/WCW versions of it. It is not my favorite wrestling style in the world, so I never really took the time to dig any forther
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#40 Posted on 25.12.03 2116.04
Reposted on: 25.12.10 2116.45
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    Any of the following could outplay Dave "I couldnt makeit in RHCP" Navarro



You missed Slash and Yngwie Malmsteen, but good list


(Edit) And I can't use the quote button properly...yet

(edited by loose_cannon on 25.12.03 2126)
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