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The 7 - Current Events & Politics - EU body shelves report on anti-semitism
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Grimis
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#1 Posted on 24.11.03 0640.16
Reposted on: 24.11.10 0641.54
Great moments in political correctness....or great moments in EU history. Either way, we're all doomed.

* * * * * * * *

EU body shelves report on anti-semitism
By Bertrand Benoit in Berlin
Published: November 21 2003

The European Union's racism watchdog has shelved a report on anti-semitism because the study concluded Muslims and pro-Palestinian groups were behind many of the incidents it examined.

The Vienna-based European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia (EUMC) decided in February not to publish the 112-page study, a copy of which was obtained by the Financial Times, after clashing with its authors over their conclusions.

The news comes amid growing fears that there is an upsurge of anti-semitism in European Union countries. Among many recent incidents, a Jewish school near Paris was firebombed last Saturday, the same day two Istanbul synagogues were devastated by suicide truck bombs that killed 25 and wounded 300.

Turkey, which hopes to join the EU, suffered again at the hands of what are believed to be al-Qaeda inspired terrorists on Thursday with truck bomb attacks on British sees as a rise in European anti-semitism.targets.

Following a spate of incidents in early 2002, the EUMC commissioned a report from the Centre for Research on Anti-semitism at Berlin's Technical University.

When the researchers submitted their work in October last year, however, the centre's senior staff and management board objected to their definition of anti-semitism, which included some anti-Israel acts. The focus on Muslim and pro-Palestinian perpetrators, meanwhile, was judged inflammatory.

"There is a trend towards Muslim anti-semitism, while on the left there is mobilisation against Israel that is not always free of prejudice," said one person familiar with the report. "Merely saying the perpetrators are French, Belgian or Dutch does no justice to the full picture."

Some EUMC board members had also attacked part of the analysis ascribing anti-semitic motives to leftwing and anti-globalisation groups, this person said. "The decision not to publish was a political decision."

The board includes 18 members - one for each member state, the European Commission, Parliament, and the council of Europe - as well as 18 deputies. One deputy, who declined to be named, confirmed the directors had seen the study as biased.

In July, Robert Wexler, a US congressman, wrote to Javier Solana, the EU's foreign policy chief, demanding the release of the study.

Ole Espersen, law professor at Copenhagen University and board member for Denmark, said the study was "unsatisfactory" and that some members had felt anti-Islamic sentiment should be addressed too.

The EUMC, which was set in 1998, has published three reports on anti-Islamic attitudes in Europe since the September 11 attacks in the US.

Beate Winkler, a director, said the report had been rejected because the initial time scale included in the brief - covering the period between May and June 2002 - was later judged to be unrepresentative. "There was a problem with the definition [of anti-semitism] too. It was too complicated," she said.

This week, Silvan Sha lom, Israel's foreign minister, proposed a joint ministerial council to fight what Israel

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Mawngo the CHango
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#2 Posted on 24.11.03 1107.22
Reposted on: 24.11.10 1107.41


"Ole Espersen, law professor at Copenhagen University and board member for Denmark, said the study was "unsatisfactory" and that some members had felt anti-Islamic sentiment should be addressed too."

Are you kidding? Islamic people or Muslim people aren't being oppressed or discriminated against! Silly Ole. >sarcasm
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#3 Posted on 24.11.03 1131.01
Reposted on: 24.11.10 1131.11
Why am I not surprised?

EDIT: I don't think the UN has the best track record on anti-semitism...see the "UN World Conference Against Racism, Racial Discrimination, Xenophobia, and Related Intolerance, Durban South Africa"
Zionism=Racism and such.

(edited by ShotGunShep on 24.11.03 1532)
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#4 Posted on 24.11.03 1134.53
Reposted on: 24.11.10 1135.03
    Originally posted by ShotGunShep
    Why am I not surprised?
I don't know! Would you care to elaborate?
DrDirt
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#5 Posted on 24.11.03 1247.46
Reposted on: 24.11.10 1248.14
It's a real shame that we cannot deal with reality. Anti-Semitism has been rife for the better part of 1000 years in Europe. What has been amazing is the ability of the Jewish people to make lemons out of lemonade no matter what happens. Isn't anti-Israeli, anti-semetic? Although anti-semetic doesn't cover it well since I believe that Arabs are considered a semitic people as well. It's funny that two groups of people who both claim Abraham as a pivotal ancestor can't get along better. Ismael was also favored by God as I recall. The odd thing is that for centuries Jews and Arabs co-existed fairly well until France and Britain got involved.

Anti-Islamic sentiment certainly exists also. Except in the Balkans though I don't believe there is quite the history of anti-Islamic sentiment in Europe itself (Crusades aside). Both predjudices are stupid.
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#6 Posted on 24.11.03 2043.09
Reposted on: 24.11.10 2043.18
It took me a while to disassociate anti-Israeli government sentiment in my mind from anti-Semitism. But they are not the same thing, as most American Jews I know are quick to say. You can disapprove of current policies in the occupied territories without believing that Israel has no right to exist or that Jews are conspiring to take over the world, which is how I would usually define anti-Semitism. Many sects of Orthodox Jews, as a matter of fact, are anti-Zionist, since they believe that the restoration of the state of Israel should have been left up to the Messiah.

Jews and Arabs co-existed in the Middle East because the Ottoman Empire was firmly in charge there for many centuries. It was the crumbling of that empire after WWI that threw everything into chaos, rather like what happened in the former Yugoslavia when the Communist regime fell apart. In classic Islamic law, Jews and Christians are considered 'people of the book', i.e., followers of Abraham's God, and therefore are granted certain religious and legal rights not given to pagans. They are not, however, considered co-equal with Muslims. Modern Islamic anti-Semitic ideas have more to do with twentieth-century chaos and the grab for land than with the real fundamentals of their religion, IMO.

MM
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#7 Posted on 24.11.03 2148.37
Reposted on: 24.11.10 2149.22
The problem is there are also parts of the Koran which are anti-Christian and anti-Jewish, saying among other things, as best as I recall at the moment, that both groups corrupted the true message of God in their scriptures. I can come back with specifics on this later. But basically there is nothing in the Koran that categorically frees Jews and Christians from the possibility of jihad.

It's sad that the death of 6 million people is not enough to get racist bigots to leave the Jewish people alone.

DMC
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#8 Posted on 24.11.03 2154.00
Reposted on: 24.11.10 2154.13
    Originally posted by DMC
    The problem is there are also parts of the Koran which are anti-Christian and anti-Jewish, saying among other things, as best as I recall at the moment, that both groups corrupted the true message of God in their scriptures. I can come back with specifics on this later. But basically there is nothing in the Koran that categorically frees Jews and Christians from the possibility of jihad.
Perhaps you could have held off on this post until you HAD those specifics.

    It's sad that the death of 6 million people is not enough to get racist bigots to leave the Jewish people alone.
This is nothing more than baiting. Please don't bait. Please don't bait. Please don't bait. (And to everyone else, please don't TAKE the bait.)
DMC
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#9 Posted on 24.11.03 2201.45
Reposted on: 24.11.10 2202.07
Whatever, BROTHER. I'll have the specifics for you tomorrow, if you don't close down this thread in the meantime.

DMC
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#10 Posted on 24.11.03 2240.51
Reposted on: 24.11.10 2240.51
    Originally posted by DMC
    The problem is there are also parts of the Koran which are anti-Christian and anti-Jewish, saying among other things, as best as I recall at the moment, that both groups corrupted the true message of God in their scriptures. I can come back with specifics on this later. But basically there is nothing in the Koran that categorically frees Jews and Christians from the possibility of jihad.


You know, I get very tired of these comments from people who don't know Muslims, probably never met a Muslim, and get all their information from some passages in a book and think they have a clue - and use that to justify their prejudice.

You want to group people in a category - that's your business - but most Muslims I have met would be very offended, and rightfully so, at your comments.
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#11 Posted on 24.11.03 2300.03
Reposted on: 24.11.10 2300.03
    Originally posted by DMC
    Whatever, BROTHER. I'll have the specifics for you tomorrow, if you don't close down this thread in the meantime.

    DMC
Yes... by all means PLEASE keep digging that hole, DMC.
DMC
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#12 Posted on 25.11.03 1228.38
Reposted on: 25.11.10 1229.01
Surah 3:85 "If anyone desires a religion other than Islam, never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost all spiritual good.

5:54 "O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and Christians for your friends and protectors: they are but friends and protectors to each other."

5:85 "Strongest among men in enmity to the believers will thou find the Jews and the Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers will thou find those who say 'we are Christians'"

The last quote even implies that the Christians are to be more favored than Jews. These verses basically come out of Muhammed's later days at Medina when he was rejected by Jewish clans there (which he later forcefully expelled). As already noted though, both Jews and Christians are valid targets for jihad in Islam, the latter specifically for believing in Christ as God incarnate, which is anathema in Islam. Thus, you have to balance the "people of the book" statements in the Koran with others.

DMC
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#13 Posted on 25.11.03 2035.06
Reposted on: 25.11.10 2035.26
    Originally posted by DMC

    The problem is there are also parts of the Koran which are anti-Christian and anti-Jewish, saying among other things, as best as I recall at the moment, that both groups corrupted the true message of God in their scriptures.



Which of those scriptures exactly backed up your statement that "both groups corrupted the true message of God in their scriptures".

You've coasted for a while on the fact that you and I have known each other for a long time. I know Chris is leaving this in my hands to deal with, and frankly, I'm just not sure what to say at this point.

You consistently make blanket statements with no proof, and when challenged, change the subject or question the person who is calling you on it.

I'm just not sure that this is working out. It's not me, it's you.

Maybe you should see other boards.
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#14 Posted on 26.11.03 0832.55
Reposted on: 26.11.10 0832.56
    Originally posted by DMC
    Surah 3:85 "If anyone desires a religion other than Islam, never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost all spiritual good.

    5:54 "O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and Christians for your friends and protectors: they are but friends and protectors to each other."

    5:85 "Strongest among men in enmity to the believers will thou find the Jews and the Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers will thou find those who say 'we are Christians'"

    The last quote even implies that the Christians are to be more favored than Jews. These verses basically come out of Muhammed's later days at Medina when he was rejected by Jewish clans there (which he later forcefully expelled). As already noted though, both Jews and Christians are valid targets for jihad in Islam, the latter specifically for believing in Christ as God incarnate, which is anathema in Islam. Thus, you have to balance the "people of the book" statements in the Koran with others.

    DMC


DMC, as you pointed out, these are things he said towards the end of his life. The Surah is not the Koran. Christians, Muslims, and Jews have co-existed succesfully throughout history where the Muslims had conquered territory and for centuries. The Crusades, etc. were economic no matter what religious mumbo jumbo they were cloaked in. The reality even today is that the persecution of Jews , Muslims, etc., is still rooted in economic reasons by the people pulling the strings. I don't know why we can't seem to grasp that. The peeps may look at things from a religous standpoint but that is because they are being manipulated. You'll notice few of the leaders are dying for Allah or Yaweh, or whoever.
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#15 Posted on 26.11.03 2127.36
Reposted on: 26.11.10 2128.42
    Originally posted by Madame Manga
    It took me a while to disassociate anti-Israeli government sentiment in my mind from anti-Semitism. But they are not the same thing, as most American Jews I know are quick to say. You can disapprove of current policies in the occupied territories without believing that Israel has no right to exist or that Jews are conspiring to take over the world, which is how I would usually define anti-Semitism. Many sects of Orthodox Jews, as a matter of fact, are anti-Zionist, since they believe that the restoration of the state of Israel should have been left up to the Messiah.


This is something I could write for an hour on. I'll try to sum it up succinctly.

A) of course it is not anti-semitic to criticize the Israeli government. If it were, most Jews (and most Israelis for that matter) would be anti-semitic.

B) Of all the significant Orthodox sects, only the Satmars could really be called anti-zionist still (although almost all Orthodox sects were anti-zionist 50 years ago). Ask me sometime for some good stories about how nutty the Satmars are. Many others - while not really "Zionist," per se, especially when it comes to the religious stuff - believe in the continued existence of Israel as a Jewish State, and are very supportive politically.

C) This gets a little circular. There's folk that hide behind the "you're being anti-semitic" thing when it comes to criticizing the Israeli government. But there are also a LOT of folks that, in turn, hide behind "Israeli always hides behind the 'you're being anti-semitic excuse when we critcize it'," and in turn, think that throwing the word "Israel" into whatever they say automatically excuses them. Example - "Our disgruntled Muslim youth wouldn't want to burn down your synagouge in France if Israel didn't treat the Palestinians so bad. And I'm not being anti-semitic here for pointing out Israeli abuses." Uh, no, but if I said "Your disgruntled Christian youth wouldn't want to burn down a Mosque in France if Sudan didn't treat its Christians so bad," would you find that acceptable? Which brings me to

D) My main problem is that double standard. Best example - the whole "college disinvestment" thing (although the U.N. is a close second). I would sign a petition saying "we want the University to disinvest in any country that (let's say) is on Amnesty International's watch list," even if included Israel. And I think 75% of American Jews (especially college kids) would do the same. But you don't see that petition - it's only Israel. Apparently it's OK for the University to invest in such bastions of Human Rights as Uzbekistan, Saudi Arabia (a country that doesn't even LET JEWS VISIT, let alone live there), or Sierra Leone, but god forbid we invest in Israel. Which leaves many otherwise left-wing, sympathetic people (like myself) to ask "Why Israel?" And, quite frankly, it's hard to come up with an answer other than "Israel's Jewish, the other countries aren't." Which leads to, the next question - "what can you call that if not anti-semitism?"

Now, I can come up with another answer - that the rich Arab countries - countries that are completely antithical to everything liberal and left-wing - have done a great job, at exploiting for their own purposes one of the enduring qualities of the Western Liberal - the automatic tendancy to root for the underdog. Southern Sudanese do not have the financial or political resources to put their situation front and center in every forum. Nor do Kurdish Turks (which is probably the situation most analogous to the Palestinian situation - of course it'll be a cold day in hell before the Europeans ever make Israel an E.U. member like they did Turkey). Not do the various ethic groups of Northwestern China. Not do countless other - much worse - victims of humanitarian abuse. But people who are politically invested in the Israel/Palestinian situation do. And almost every liberal I've talked to, it's been a matter of "the Israelis have more power than the Palestinians, so we have to help the Palestinians and hate the Israelis" knee-jerk reaction (this isn't to say many pro-Israel people don't have an equally knee-jerk reaction, especially the Chirstian Right). After a long and extended discussion, I can usually educate the person to where they have a more nuanced understanding of the situation, as well as other situations around the world. But, unfortunately, once someone has made up their mind one person is the good guy and the other the bad guy, they don't go looking for the "bad guy's" point of view, it has to kind of come to them. And in the meantime, they get sucked into all sorts of ridiculous, completely made-up, shit from people for who "human rights" means absolutley nothing. I can't belive the sources I've heard otherwise well-informed lefties cite when it comes to this. And I can't believe the utter anti-semitic bullshit I hear otherwise tolerant and progressive lefties sprew in relation to this issue, and the utter inability to recognize and take into account that Israel is on an absolutely different level when it comes to sharing liberal and left-wing values than any of its neighbors. I remember a poster quoting an article about the Israeli army by Ha'aretz (a paper anyone who wants any kind of decent understanding of the conflict should read by the way - Click Here (haaretz.com)) an ISRAELI paper, to make a point about why Israel is immoral. Gee, you think in a million years you'd ever find an article like that in an Arab paper about an Arab country's army? AM I the only one to get the irony? (although, to be fair, I should point out that the Palestinians are actually light-years ahead of most Arab countires when it comes to embracing Western principles like Freedom of the Press - and I have read stuff by Palestinians that are very criticle of the tactics and positions they are using. One more reason I think it's a shame these two people are cought up in this situation).

I encourage all lefties (and all knee-jerk Israel supporters - heck everyone) to check out an anthology that just came out that provides a very good range of progressive-Jewish American responces to the conflict.

Click Here (amazon.com)
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#16 Posted on 27.11.03 2239.31
Reposted on: 27.11.10 2239.31
Moe, thanks for the post and the links. Good stuff.

I support Israel's right to exist and marvel at what the have accomplished. What saddens me is that in dealing with the Palestinian question they seem to have moved toward beconing what they are fighting. I understand how it happened. I just don't see how it will result in a long-term solution, only more bloodshed. I just pray they can find a way to co-exist without killing each other. The militants on both sides have got to be controlled.
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#17 Posted on 2.12.03 1531.03
Reposted on: 2.12.10 1531.59
"Which of those scriptures exactly backed up your statement that "both groups corrupted the true message of God in their scriptures"."

None. I didn't feel a need to post them. I still don't. My main point all along has been that the "people of the book" statements need to be qualified. If you would like more examples of why I feel that way, I will post them.

DrDirt: "Surahs" is another term for "chapters" of the Koran. At least that's how I'm using it here. Perhaps you are referring to "hadiths," which are not part of the Koran but are sacred traditions, somewhat akin to Catholic church traditions.

DMC
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#18 Posted on 2.12.03 1546.01
Reposted on: 2.12.10 1546.51
DMC, it boggles my mind that you still want to drag this thread back to life after five days of inactivity, after an ENTIRE WEEK since you posted last, after I've already hinted pretty strongly that this is a road I don't want people to travel on this board, AND after Aaron "publicly broke up with you."

On another level, I'm not surprised at all.

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