The W
Views: 98304157
Main | FAQ | Search: Y! / G | Color chart | Log in for more!
20.8.07 1332
The 7 - Current Events & Politics - Memogate Register and log in to post!
(1226 newer) Next thread | Previous thread
User
Post (16 total)
Grimis
Scrapple
Level: 124

Posts: 2421/4700
EXP: 21429651
For next: 407011

Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1205 days
Last activity: 1002 days
#1 Posted on 6.11.03 0711.02
Reposted on: 6.11.10 0714.57
I'm kinda surprised that nobody has brought up the issue about the Democratic memo scandal as of yet. I personally like the quoted part that CNN CNN has:

"Once we identify solid leads the majority does not want to pursue, we would attract more coverage and have greater credibility in that context than one in which we simply launch an independent investigation based on principled but vague notions regarding the use of intelligence.

"The best time to do so will probably be next year," a presidential election year, the memo said.


I don't often give credit to many Democrats, but Zell Miller hit a home run by summing it up pretty quickly:

“If what has happened here is not treason, it is its first cousin. The ones responsible — be they staff or elected or both should be dealt with quickly and severely sending a lesson to all that this kind of action will not be tolerated, ignored or excused....Heads should roll.”

Nor should it be, regardless of party.
Promote this thread!
Davros
Blutwurst
Level: 35

Posts: 214/251
EXP: 263204
For next: 16734

Since: 22.8.02
From: Between thought and Reality, TZ

Since last post: 2594 days
Last activity: 2589 days
#2 Posted on 6.11.03 0936.36
Reposted on: 6.11.10 0941.02
More conservative banter, yuddah, yuddah, yuddah. Sounds to me like the hard righters are getting a liitle worried, and a lot desperate. Yeah guys, don't try so hard.

Now back to my regularly scheduled rat racing.

Grimis
Scrapple
Level: 124

Posts: 2423/4700
EXP: 21429651
For next: 407011

Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1205 days
Last activity: 1002 days
#3 Posted on 6.11.03 0950.11
Reposted on: 6.11.10 0954.34
    Originally posted by Davros
    Sounds to me like the hard righters are getting a liitle worried, and a lot desperate.

Uh....get a little worried about what exactly?
AWArulz
Knackwurst
Level: 108

Posts: 511/3352
EXP: 13143706
For next: 376837

Since: 28.1.02
From: Louisville, KY

Since last post: 23 hours
Last activity: 4 hours
AIM:  
Y!:
#4 Posted on 6.11.03 0954.16
Reposted on: 6.11.10 0954.35
    Originally posted by Davros
    More conservative banter, yuddah, yuddah, yuddah. Sounds to me like the hard righters are getting a liitle worried, and a lot desperate. .




Zell Miller's not exactly a hard righter, is he? He's a democrap. Ok, a relatively conservative democrap, but one anyway.
redsoxnation
Scrapple
Level: 152

Posts: 3028/7534
EXP: 43427462
For next: 874300

Since: 24.7.02

Since last post: 415 days
Last activity: 415 days
#5 Posted on 6.11.03 1001.47
Reposted on: 6.11.10 1001.51
    Originally posted by Grimis
    Zell Miller hit a home run by summing it up pretty quickly:

    “If what has happened here is not treason, it is its first cousin. The ones responsible — be they staff or elected or both should be dealt with quickly and severely sending a lesson to all that this kind of action will not be tolerated, ignored or excused....Heads should roll.”





    Considering the punishment for Treason is death, does that mean Zell is advocating the return of the guillotine?
DrDirt
Banger
Level: 96

Posts: 98/2697
EXP: 8824110
For next: 164709

Since: 8.10.03
From: flyover country

Since last post: 6 days
Last activity: 1 hour
#6 Posted on 6.11.03 1004.58
Reposted on: 6.11.10 1005.29
    Originally posted by Grimis
      Originally posted by Davros
      Sounds to me like the hard righters are getting a liitle worried, and a lot desperate.

    Uh....get a little worried about what exactly?


It is starting to look like Bush and Co. are guilty of one of two things. They played fast and lose with the truth to get where they wanted. Or they took bad intel that supported their position without checking it out or chosing to ignore contrary information. They would have been better off to simply have said Hussein is a bad man and a threat to stability in the region and our ability to get oil from there.

Is this political crap? Of course. Is it treason. Of course not. Its the same kind of political game both sides have played for years.
EddieBurkett
Boudin blanc
Level: 92

Posts: 715/2306
EXP: 7520624
For next: 236343

Since: 3.1.02
From: GA in person, NJ in heart

Since last post: 3 days
Last activity: 1 hour
#7 Posted on 6.11.03 1011.12
Reposted on: 6.11.10 1013.30
    Originally posted by DrDirt
    Is this political crap? Of course. Is it treason. Of course not. Its the same kind of political game both sides have played for years.


That's not the political crap Zell is comparing to treason. Supposedly, the memo outlines plans to use Bush and Co.'s handing of the *truth* as a political weapon next year, which *just happens* to be an election year. While this is an important issue that needs to be examined, Zell is complaining about the plans to use it for political gain, especially when soldiers are still in harms way across the world.

Granted, the CNN article didn't seem to give much impression of the memo containing political strategy. But Hannity's been foaming at the mouth over this on his radio show the last two days.

From what I've seen/heard of Zell Miller, it sounds like the only reason he's still a democrat is that he doesn't want to go through the process of changing party affliation. (His metaphor is that of living in an old house, with the plumbing not working and strangers living in the basement, but you don't want to move because its your old house...)

DrDirt
Banger
Level: 96

Posts: 100/2697
EXP: 8824110
For next: 164709

Since: 8.10.03
From: flyover country

Since last post: 6 days
Last activity: 1 hour
#8 Posted on 6.11.03 1021.37
Reposted on: 6.11.10 1025.56
Eddie, agreed. But pols in the out party have done this in every, and I mean every war. Does it make it right, no, but exploiting the opposing parties weakness for political gain is how the game is played.

Hannity and company must have something to foam at the mouth about and a reason to get up in the morning. I think Zell Miller is as upset as many of us are with the politics being played by very dirty players. He seems an honorable man. maybe the answer is to have three parties. Republicans are the exterme conservatives. Dems are the extreme liberals. And those looking for real answers and intelligent dialouge and truth are "the reat of us." Of course looking for answers and intelligent discussion would never get anyone elected today. And please, I am not talking about Joe and Jane average American but the pols.
EddieBurkett
Boudin blanc
Level: 92

Posts: 716/2306
EXP: 7520624
For next: 236343

Since: 3.1.02
From: GA in person, NJ in heart

Since last post: 3 days
Last activity: 1 hour
#9 Posted on 6.11.03 1125.32
Reposted on: 6.11.10 1126.13
Here (foxnews.com) is a transcript of the memo in question. Yes, its a FoxNews site, and if anyone else can find a *better* source, I'd check that out, too. (Unless a transcript is just a reprinting, I'm assuming some summarizing or editing was done in this case.) Looking it over, it doesn't seem as inflammatory as Hannity has made it out to be, but I think the issue is more about what it implies, than what it explicitly says. (Although "pull the trigger" is a rather poor choice of words.)

It seems to me is that the main problem with the memo is that the Dems are saying they already believe that Bush and Co. lied, and they are now going to do what they can to find that evidence, even though that's not what the Committee should be doing (which they admit.)

    Originally posted by DrDirt
    . . . [E]xploiting the opposing parties weakness for political gain is how the game is played.


Yes, but I get the impression that up till now, the Senate Intelligence Committee was regarded as off limits to that sort of behaviour. I won't say that the Democrats are the first to breach that *rule*, but I will say they are the first to get their hand caught in the proverbial cookie jar.
eviljonhunt81
Pepperoni
Level: 66

Posts: 705/1084
EXP: 2422892
For next: 38972

Since: 6.1.02
From: not Japan

Since last post: 2924 days
Last activity: 2920 days
#10 Posted on 6.11.03 1239.10
Reposted on: 6.11.10 1239.46
    Originally posted by EddieBurkett
    It seems to me is that the main problem with the memo is that the Dems are saying they already believe that Bush and Co. lied, and they are now going to do what they can to find that evidence, even though that's not what the Committee should be doing (which they admit)


Then what is the committee supposed to be doing? What are they investingating if they can't pursue the possibility that the administration lied or misused intelligence?
EddieBurkett
Boudin blanc
Level: 92

Posts: 718/2306
EXP: 7520624
For next: 236343

Since: 3.1.02
From: GA in person, NJ in heart

Since last post: 3 days
Last activity: 1 hour
#11 Posted on 6.11.03 1247.35
Reposted on: 6.11.10 1251.38
According the the memo, they are involved with "the public's concern regarding the insurgency in Iraq," so it sounds like they are to focus on monitoring intelligence regarding current Iraqi events.
DrDirt
Banger
Level: 96

Posts: 104/2697
EXP: 8824110
For next: 164709

Since: 8.10.03
From: flyover country

Since last post: 6 days
Last activity: 1 hour
#12 Posted on 6.11.03 1434.53
Reposted on: 6.11.10 1449.59
    Originally posted by EddieBurkett
    Here (foxnews.com) is a transcript of the memo in question. Yes, its a FoxNews site, and if anyone else can find a *better* source, I'd check that out, too. (Unless a transcript is just a reprinting, I'm assuming some summarizing or editing was done in this case.) Looking it over, it doesn't seem as inflammatory as Hannity has made it out to be, but I think the issue is more about what it implies, than what it explicitly says. (Although "pull the trigger" is a rather poor choice of words.)

    It seems to me is that the main problem with the memo is that the Dems are saying they already believe that Bush and Co. lied, and they are now going to do what they can to find that evidence, even though that's not what the Committee should be doing (which they admit.)

      Originally posted by DrDirt
      . . . [E]xploiting the opposing parties weakness for political gain is how the game is played.


    Yes, but I get the impression that up till now, the Senate Intelligence Committee was regarded as off limits to that sort of behaviour. I won't say that the Democrats are the first to breach that *rule*, but I will say they are the first to get their hand caught in the proverbial cookie jar.


First, remember Iran Contra or the investigation of the Iranian hostage situation? The dem's aren't the only ones who think the administration was fast and loose with the facts. They could stop this now with full disclosure with the committee but aren't likely to anytime soon. And this is part of the committees purview.
PalpatineW
Lap cheong
Level: 77

Posts: 918/1528
EXP: 4056652
For next: 134496

Since: 2.1.02
From: Getting Rowdy

Since last post: 2766 days
Last activity: 2609 days
AIM:  
#13 Posted on 6.11.03 1741.18
Reposted on: 6.11.10 1744.40
Playing politics is one thing. Eschewing making honest progress or having a real debate on this in favor of politics is downright criminal. The Democrats first concern should be: How was intelligence been mishandled and how has it harmed the country? Instead their first concern is: How can we benefit from this? It's craven.
EddieBurkett
Boudin blanc
Level: 92

Posts: 720/2306
EXP: 7520624
For next: 236343

Since: 3.1.02
From: GA in person, NJ in heart

Since last post: 3 days
Last activity: 1 hour
#14 Posted on 6.11.03 1818.38
Reposted on: 6.11.10 1819.17
    Originally posted by DrDirt
    And this is part of the committees purview.


Sen. Orrin Hatch (R-Utah), on Hannity's radio show earlier, did say that investigating how the White House mishandled information is within the purview of the committee. He then did go on to say that the fact that this document lays out a plan for the minority to "hijack" the committee for their own purposes is the problem. Referring back to the document, although no parties are named, I would guess this is what's inferred from with the "majority" and "minority" comments.

The cynic in me, that agrees with DrDirt's earlier assertion that this kind of thing happens all the time behind closed doors, is starting to think that this is an attempt at a diversion by the Republicans and their ilk (Hannity, Miller) to limit talk on Bush's actual relationship with the information. Said cynicist also thinks that this isn't quite the important bit of news Hannity would make it out to be, and that he's only pushing it so hard because he broke the story. Plus, when none of the other news outlets follow his lead, he can then continue to rail on against the media's bias, even though in this case, I don't think this is "front page news" like he claims.

Edit: quote != link; is cynicist even a word?

(edited by EddieBurkett on 6.11.03 1920)
DrDirt
Banger
Level: 96

Posts: 106/2697
EXP: 8824110
For next: 164709

Since: 8.10.03
From: flyover country

Since last post: 6 days
Last activity: 1 hour
#15 Posted on 7.11.03 0855.07
Reposted on: 7.11.10 0855.11
    Originally posted by PalpatineW
    Playing politics is one thing. Eschewing making honest progress or having a real debate on this in favor of politics is downright criminal. The Democrats first concern should be: How was intelligence been mishandled and how has it harmed the country? Instead their first concern is: How can we benefit from this? It's craven.


Palp, I agree but the trouble is neither side is interested in finding out what went wrong with the exception of a few Senators. Robert's seems to be generally interested in the truth as the chair. Both sides want to make hay out of the this. The Dem's want to beat Bush over the head with this to defeat him. The Rep's want to use this to paint the Dem's as treasonous bastards who don't care about the country or its defense. There is a little truth in both positions but as always the truth lies in that shade of gray that many don't like.

Thr truth may be that Bush and Co. while fudging the facts really believed what they said. Unfortunately they let emotion not reason rule. The Dem's may be generally concerned about the intel and the miasma it created but figure what the hell, we can also use this against the Satan that is Bush.

Are the dem's actions criminal, No. But they are morally repugnant just as is Bush's stance that if you don't agree with the Admin you are a traitor.
godking
Chourico
Level: 36

Posts: 254/274
EXP: 298159
For next: 9954

Since: 20.10.02
From: Toronto

Since last post: 3841 days
Last activity: 3787 days
#16 Posted on 8.11.03 1752.49
Reposted on: 8.11.10 1754.45
My take on the whole memo thing is that it's largely a non-issue that's being drummed up by righty political commentators as an example of the horrible horrible Democrats, wherein they conveniently ignore that the entire thing has been caused by the fact that Republicans are stonewalling the investigation, just like they stonewalled the 9/11 investigation.

There's a good translation of the memo into plain English at

http://www.calpundit.com/archives/002603.html
ALL ORIGINAL POSTS IN THIS THREAD ARE NOW AVAILABLE
Thread ahead: NY School lunches & WWE Wrestlers
Next thread: Dean Chided Over Confederate Flag Remark
Previous thread: NPR Gets huge lump sum
(1226 newer) Next thread | Previous thread
The 7 - Current Events & Politics - MemogateRegister and log in to post!

The W™ message board - 7 year recycle

ZimBoard
©2001-2014 Brothers Zim
This old hunk of junk rendered your page in 0.192 seconds.