The W
Views: 98965780
Main | FAQ | Search: Y! / G | Color chart | Log in for more!
17.9.07 0840
The 7 - Random - The Big O - trying to make sense (spoiler laden) Register and log in to post!
(1738 newer) Next thread | Previous thread
User
Post (19 total)
ScreamingHeadGuy
Frankfurter
Level: 56

Posts: 375/743
EXP: 1375196
For next: 22989

Since: 1.2.02
From: Appleton, WI

Since last post: 712 days
Last activity: 712 days
#1 Posted on 3.11.03 1623.57
Reposted on: 3.11.10 1627.14
Okay, so last night was the final episode, and I'm sure we all have many questions about just what the heck meant what. 'Cuz I know that many times I just went "huh?" during the show.

Allow me to posit my theory.

Angel is the author of the play "Metropolis", which is the story of Paragidm City. At the end of the episode Roger and R.Dorothy bring her to her senses and she ceases erasing the city from existance. Then, in the post-script (or whatever you want to call the little bit before they cut to the credits) we see Roger doing his negotiator thing, and Angel and R.Dorothy standing, happily, on the sidewalk. So, with all this, I can only assume that Angel hit the "reset" button and un-did her erasing and wrote a happy ending.

But that's just way to deus-ex-machina for my taste. So I'm wondering if anyone else thought about this and has come up with a better theory (or maybe anyone else actually thinks the same way I do)?
Promote this thread!
Nate The Snake
Liverwurst
Level: 68

Posts: 798/1136
EXP: 2606309
For next: 122505

Since: 9.1.02
From: Wichita, Ks

Since last post: 3712 days
Last activity: 3182 days
AIM:  
#2 Posted on 3.11.03 1648.02
Reposted on: 3.11.10 1653.19
...THAT was what the uproar was all about?

Twin Peaks made more sense. RAW makes more sense. FLCL wound up making more sense in the end.

Maybe the answers just got lost in the translation.
CarlCX
Salami
Level: 33

Posts: 75/219
EXP: 217928
For next: 11254

Since: 1.5.02
From: California.

Since last post: 7 days
Last activity: 1 day
AIM:  
#3 Posted on 3.11.03 1731.24
Reposted on: 3.11.10 1731.56
It looked more to me like Paradigm City (and the world?) was a cycle; a play, Metropolis, that plays itself out time and time again, slight variations each time with the same inevitable ending: clean slate. The only difference this time around is that Angel accepted human existence and decided to preserve part of the city--hence, the fucked-up buildings in Amnesia City. Didn't leave the memories all there, didn't make everything right...but left just enough difference that maybe this time it'll last.
Jaguar
Knackwurst
Level: 107

Posts: 1858/3273
EXP: 12726934
For next: 364419

Since: 23.1.02
From: Phoenix, AZ

Since last post: 162 days
Last activity: 162 days
#4 Posted on 3.11.03 1838.07
Reposted on: 3.11.10 1839.03
Carl is thinking along the same lines I am. I don't know if it's a 'play' per se, but I think whatever it is has happened before, and is being repeated now. Someone brought up that it reminded them of the Matrix Reloaded with Zion set up to fall again and again (of course, I'm sure that's been done before Reloaded brought it up, I just can't think of where).

Several people have suggested that it's all some sort of TV show type deal, where everyone participating had the memories wiped, but if that was the deal, I'd be extremely disappointed.

The real question here is: What are the people? Everything leading up to this point has been saying that the people were clones of the people who lived in the city before (which is buried under the sea now?). And that cloning them had something do with memories. But then we get the pictures of the thousands of Robot Rogers, and it also turns out that Roger's informant was a robot... so are the citizens really people (cloned or otherwise) or are they robots? OR do they even exist at all? Big Venus (who we've seen in flashbacks destroying the city) brought destruction (of some sort) to the city with every move. It all just faded away. So was anything there really real at all?

-Jag

My brain hurts. I still like Big O though...
The Vile1
Lap cheong
Level: 80

Posts: 361/1694
EXP: 4622450
For next: 160539

Since: 4.9.02
From: California

Since last post: 1976 days
Last activity: 1708 days
#5 Posted on 3.11.03 1856.44
Reposted on: 3.11.10 1857.13
From what I understand, at the end in the Japanese language version, Roger says, "I'm a Negotiator, and my job is complete." In the English language version on last night at the end he says, "My name is Roger Smith. I perform a much needed job here in the city of amnesia." Leaving things open for a possible third season perhaps? I think Cartoon Network has the option for 26 more episodes if they are happy with the ratings. For people that say there shouldn't be a third season, it wouldn't make sense, etc. remember...there wasn't supposed to be a second season either.
Enojado Viento
Potato korv
Level: 53

Posts: 557/662
EXP: 1151618
For next: 5508

Since: 12.3.02
From: Your Grocer's Freezer, NC

Since last post: 685 days
Last activity: 11 days
#6 Posted on 3.11.03 1952.32
Reposted on: 3.11.10 1952.41
I dunno what everyone's so out of joint about. Act 13 raised just as many "The hell?" questions when it ran.

I really think any comparison to FLCL is spurious--FLCL worked harder at being incoherent and impenetrable than it ever did at being entertaining.

People who say this is a "reset button" are wrong--Angel and Dorothy appear in the "reboot" different than they did before and all the damage caused in the battle between Big O and Big Fau is still there (hence the last shot of the building leaned one on the other) The implication, at least to me (and I'm still working it out myself) is that the "amnesia" effect is perpetual--there's no telling how many times this cycle has happened.

"Paradigm" means "Pattern" after all.

If this pattern is happening over and over (with slight variations) you could *have* a third season--If Roger's back to square one, then who the hell is in the control room with Angel before the 2 Bigs merge?

I know people are thinking "Matrix Reloaded," but I think it's much more like "Dark City," and I just read an interview with the creators that mentioned "Dark City" as an influence and it had a person finally breaking a pattern despite lacking his memories. . .maybe watching it again would explain some things.

That said, here's stuff I'm still trying to work out since everyone's saying "Huh, I don't get this."

-Was that really Roger and Dorothy in the control room with Angel or was it representative of something else like in "Roger the Wanderer?"

-Was Alex trying to recreate the disaster to recreate reality on his own terms, whereas Angel comes to accept how things are?

-This still doesn't explain people who come from outside (the Union), tho I suspect they may also be creations of whatever this is.

-Finally: Big Fau's control circut was an hourglass. Roger collects and makes hourglasses in his spare time. Maybe he's more than a simple



Jaguar
Knackwurst
Level: 107

Posts: 1859/3273
EXP: 12726934
For next: 364419

Since: 23.1.02
From: Phoenix, AZ

Since last post: 162 days
Last activity: 162 days
#7 Posted on 3.11.03 2208.42
Reposted on: 3.11.10 2208.45
Gordon Rosewater said that the Union didn't really exist. That there was no place outside Paradigm City, in episode 24.

-Jag
ScreamingHeadGuy
Frankfurter
Level: 56

Posts: 379/743
EXP: 1375196
For next: 22989

Since: 1.2.02
From: Appleton, WI

Since last post: 712 days
Last activity: 712 days
#8 Posted on 3.11.03 2215.07
Reposted on: 3.11.10 2215.11
Gosh, Idunno. I mean, NOWHERE really exists. The whole world is a stage. Which, when I think about it, helps Episode 14 make more sense.

Enojado - how did Angel and R.Dorothy look different? I mean, the drawing style was slightly different for everything, but did you mean it in any other way?

I know there have been anime series with pretty ambiguous endings, but this one - wow.
Enojado Viento
Potato korv
Level: 53

Posts: 558/662
EXP: 1151618
For next: 5508

Since: 12.3.02
From: Your Grocer's Freezer, NC

Since last post: 685 days
Last activity: 11 days
#9 Posted on 3.11.03 2223.37
Reposted on: 3.11.10 2224.26
    Originally posted by ScreamingHeadGuy
    Gosh, Idunno. I mean, NOWHERE really exists. The whole world is a stage. Which, when I think about it, helps Episode 14 make more sense.

    Enojado - how did Angel and R.Dorothy look different? I mean, the drawing style was slightly different for everything, but did you mean it in any other way?




Dorothy looked quite a bit more human in her facial features, her skin tone looked a bit more natural and she was missing her usual harsh angular character design.

If it were a simple reboot and putting the show back to Act 1, I doubt they would have gone to the expense to do entirely new animation for that sequence, as Big O's never been shy about reusing footage. . .

As for the rest, well, this is why I taped all 13 eps this season--so I can go over it again with a fine-tooth comb, until the DVD comes out, anyways.

EDIT: Some indepth examination of the entire series and the symbolism therein. Also includes some information on the radio episode. A BIG help for trying to figure out just what the hell is going on.

(edited by Enojado Viento on 3.11.03 2154)
The Vile1
Lap cheong
Level: 80

Posts: 363/1694
EXP: 4622450
For next: 160539

Since: 4.9.02
From: California

Since last post: 1976 days
Last activity: 1708 days
#10 Posted on 3.11.03 2353.28
Reposted on: 3.11.10 2354.13
What I really want to know is this, will there be a third season?!
CarlCX
Salami
Level: 33

Posts: 76/219
EXP: 217928
For next: 11254

Since: 1.5.02
From: California.

Since last post: 7 days
Last activity: 1 day
AIM:  
#11 Posted on 4.11.03 0345.52
Reposted on: 4.11.10 0345.57
Enojado, I'll try to answer with my interpretations.

That said, here's stuff I'm still trying to work out since everyone's saying "Huh, I don't get this."

-Was that really Roger and Dorothy in the control room with Angel or was it representative of something else like in "Roger the Wanderer?"

I presumed that was a view of Angel's consciousness. The way that Roger was appealing to her human side while she was acting through Big Venus, she needed a way to comprehend the way he was speaking to her, at the level he was attempting to get her to listen. Thus, his plea to her emotional, imperfect, human self is viewed as a close, intimate talk, Roger's hand on her shoulder and all. If you look, in fact, there's a Big O poster on the wall. Thus, Angel steps down from the divine perspective and anthropormorphizes.

-Was Alex trying to recreate the disaster to recreate reality on his own terms, whereas Angel comes to accept how things are?
As I understood it, Alex's ego got away with him. He seemed more convinced that Big Fau was the truly powerful Megadeus; it seemed to me that he was under the impression that he would get to tear down Paradigm and remake it in his own image. Hence the way that "this world has a new god" in reference to himself and Big Fau became almost a mantra for him.

-This still doesn't explain people who come from outside (the Union), tho I suspect they may also be creations of whatever this is.
See Jaguar's post.

-Finally: Big Fau's control circut was an hourglass. Roger collects and makes hourglasses in his spare time. Maybe he's more than a simple
The hourglass as a whole seemed like a prevailing symbol not so much of time as of balance. Notice how by default, Big Fau wasn't keeping TIME with the hourglass...it was keeping an equilibrium between the two sides, ensuring that neither destroyed the other. It was only Alex's actions that tipped the hourglass--and threw Big Fau off. Each character has their own struggle with this, and even Paradigm--and its fate--exemplifies this. It's not until Angel comes to terms both with Big Venus and her human side that she can preserve some part of Paradigm; it's not until Roger comes to an understanding with Big O that they do their best work. It's not until Dorothy makes her peace with her nature that she 'evolves.' Heck, Roger's a freakin' Negotiator; his whole duty is centered around preserving balance. What's the tagline of the series, after all?

"We have come to terms."

I dig this.
Tenken347
Boudin blanc
Level: 92

Posts: 282/2416
EXP: 7714179
For next: 42788

Since: 27.2.03
From: Parts Unknown

Since last post: 1 day
Last activity: 2 hours
#12 Posted on 4.11.03 1938.44
Reposted on: 4.11.10 1939.52
Here's what I've been able to come up with. 40 years ago (or however long, time isn't real specific, obviously) Big Venus wiped out all memory. From something Gordon Rosewater said about memories being fragile and unraveling when inside a human mind, I posit that Big Venus was created to steal away human memories and contain them forever. Hence, Angel, the pilot of Big Venus, is said to be a memory herself, because her scars indicate that she merged with Big Venus. Now, not everyone liked this plan, and so an army of Bigs (O, Duo, and Fau) waged war on Big Venus and her army of Laviathans. They lost. So Gordon Rosewater asked Roger the Negotiator to intervein and try to stop her. I'm pretty sure he failed as well. I don't think our Roger is the original though. If I had to guess, I'd say that Norman is the original Roger (knowlege of the Big, all the equipment, and ability to comunicate with Big O) and he used Gordon to pass his memories on to a clone (our Roger)after the event. Paradigm city was left as a stage where people tried to recreate their memories, and it seems that if they succeed, ie. Roger and Alex recreating the war of the Bigs, then Big Venus appears once more to take the memories away. Possibly, this has happened before.
J. Kyle
Boudin blanc
Level: 93

Posts: 1082/2389
EXP: 7911596
For next: 141244

Since: 21.2.02
From: The Land of Aloha

Since last post: 45 days
Last activity: 10 hours
AIM:  
Y!:
#13 Posted on 5.11.03 0127.38
Reposted on: 5.11.10 0128.40
Well I haven't had a bigger WTF since Lain.

Has everyone forgotten Roger seems to be the latest in the line of Roger robots?

I don't know if the world is a dream, what Beck's FULL involvement in everything is, and I HAVE NOT seen Seebach's corpse.

Bring on Season 3. And the Excedrin.
Enojado Viento
Potato korv
Level: 53

Posts: 559/662
EXP: 1151618
For next: 5508

Since: 12.3.02
From: Your Grocer's Freezer, NC

Since last post: 685 days
Last activity: 11 days
#14 Posted on 5.11.03 0146.00
Reposted on: 5.11.10 0148.10
    Originally posted by AngryJohnny
    Well I haven't had a bigger WTF since Lain.

    Has everyone forgotten Roger seems to be the latest in the line of Roger robots?


Y'know, one of the biggest problems with trying to make sense out of a show in a city where no one has any memory is figuring out what's there as representation for what's going on and whether it's supposed to be a literal image.

Here's theory number 8 zillion in series of 2.

The assembly line is a representation of the repeated pattern--likewise, all those shots of swarms of Big Duos and Big Faus and Big Os fighting are abstractions of what happened every time the pattern repeated before (likewise the scene with Roger in the police uniform drowned in Big O's cockpit)--this has happened before, but it's been different each time.

As to why it all comes down to Big Fau and Big O, I agree with CarlCX--Alex always forces a confrontation, thinking Big Fau is the Megadeus with the power to reorder Paradigm city.

In reality however, it's angel who has the REAL trump card.

In other news, anyone else amazed at how much outright *hate* this episode has engendered in some quarters for being "too vague?" (I think after the entirety of FLCL epople have lost the right to complain about vagueness in anything, ever.) I'd HATE to see how these people would chew over something REALLY abstract. . .

. . .like the last episode of "The Prisoner." "Big O" has a smooth throughline by comparison.
J. Kyle
Boudin blanc
Level: 93

Posts: 1083/2389
EXP: 7911596
For next: 141244

Since: 21.2.02
From: The Land of Aloha

Since last post: 45 days
Last activity: 10 hours
AIM:  
Y!:
#15 Posted on 5.11.03 0231.54
Reposted on: 5.11.10 0232.40
If Roger is human, there's no way Big O could've plugged into him.

It would at least explain how Roger lifted her this season.

(edited by AngryJohnny on 4.11.03 1432)
Tenken347
Boudin blanc
Level: 92

Posts: 283/2416
EXP: 7714179
For next: 42788

Since: 27.2.03
From: Parts Unknown

Since last post: 1 day
Last activity: 2 hours
#16 Posted on 5.11.03 0837.59
Reposted on: 5.11.10 0839.02
No, Roger has to be human. He was shot in episode 13, and bled out pretty bad. There may be Roger robots running around, but our Roger isn't one of them. My theory, and I don't have a lot to back this up, is that Roger was the only true dominus, ever. All those Bigs in the flashbacks are being piloted by Roger robots, perhaps designed in the same fashion as Dorothy.
Enojado Viento
Potato korv
Level: 53

Posts: 560/662
EXP: 1151618
For next: 5508

Since: 12.3.02
From: Your Grocer's Freezer, NC

Since last post: 685 days
Last activity: 11 days
#17 Posted on 5.11.03 1045.39
Reposted on: 5.11.10 1046.15
    Originally posted by Tenken347
    No, Roger has to be human. He was shot in episode 13, and bled out pretty bad.


Damn Tenken, you beat me to it. *L*

It's because of that I think the "Roger as Robot" stuff is just allegory.

Oh yeah, and did anyone else notice at the end of the episode Roger isn't wearing his signal watch thingy? Gonna have a hell of a time doing a seson 3 if the title mech is gone. . .
The Vile1
Lap cheong
Level: 80

Posts: 364/1694
EXP: 4622450
For next: 160539

Since: 4.9.02
From: California

Since last post: 1976 days
Last activity: 1708 days
#18 Posted on 5.11.03 1238.04
Reposted on: 5.11.10 1242.34
I'm just going to throw this stuff out there. Is it possible that the visions or memories Roger has had in over the course of the 26 episodes yet to occur? I'm saying, what if those visions he's having are premonitions? In the event, that whole memory of the future scenario was brought up.

One thing I've also seemed to get out of the finale is that I think its possible that the stage of Paradigm city has been operating w/o a "director" as it were for sometime. Maybe Angel got lost in Paradigm City and didn't know she is/was supposed to be calling the shots? Could Gordon Rosewater have been the director at one point?
J. Kyle
Boudin blanc
Level: 93

Posts: 1084/2389
EXP: 7911596
For next: 141244

Since: 21.2.02
From: The Land of Aloha

Since last post: 45 days
Last activity: 10 hours
AIM:  
Y!:
#19 Posted on 6.11.03 0438.49
Reposted on: 6.11.10 0438.58
Sure we THINK we've seen Roger bleed, but maybe we haven't. Ever since the ending went all Dark City on us, I'm not sure about anything.

Plus it's not like you can't make an android capable of bleeding. Or Roger could be a cyborg.
ALL ORIGINAL POSTS IN THIS THREAD ARE NOW AVAILABLE
Thread ahead: 24 thoughts after Hour 2
Next thread: Horror Question
Previous thread: R.I.P Brookside
(1738 newer) Next thread | Previous thread
The 7 - Random - The Big O - trying to make sense (spoiler laden)Register and log in to post!

The W™ message board - 7 year recycle

ZimBoard
©2001-2014 Brothers Zim
This old hunk of junk rendered your page in 0.342 seconds.