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Downtown Bookie
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#1 Posted on 2.11.03 2025.09
Reposted on: 2.11.10 2027.23
I was surprised that none of the other wieners posted this story (story.news.yahoo.com) as IMHO it contains quite a lot of discussion material. Among the quotes contained in the article:

Howard Dean:

"I still want to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks. We can't beat George Bush unless we appeal to a broad cross-section of Democrats. We have working white families in the south voting for tax cuts for the richest 1 percent while their children remain with no health care. The dividing of working people by race has been a cornerstone of Republican politics for the last three decades starting with Richard Nixon. ... The only way we're going to beat George Bush is if southern white working families and African-American working families come together under the Democratic tent, as they did under FDR."


Now this is just my opinion, of course, but it seems that Gov. Dean has hit upon what could be a winning strategy for the Democrats to re-gain the White House in 2004.

Dick Gephardt:

"I don't want to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks."


Is this Rep. Gephardt's way of conceding he has no chance in America's south and rural areas, or is this a brave stance by a man who is putting principles ahead of votes?

John Kerry:

"I would rather be the candidate of the NAACP than the NRA."


Are these two groups mutually exclusive, as Sen. Kerry implies? Doesn't the NRA have African-American members? In other remarks in the article, Kerry contends that Dean's "pandering" to the National Rifle Association gave him an inroad to "pander to lovers of the Confederate flag." Is it fair of Sen. Kerry to equate NRA membership with racism? Are there wieners here who believe that being a member of the NRA automatically makes one a racist?

Also from the article:


Dean spokeswoman Tricia Enright told The Associated Press that Dean had previously used the Confederate flag image in his campaign.

One instance came Feb. 22 at a meeting of the Democratic National Committee in Washington. Dean said the men with Confederate flag decals in their pickup trucks represented lucrative prospects for the party "because their kids don't have health insurance, either, and their kids need better schools, too."

The party elite responded with "resounding applause and a standing ovation," Enright said.


If Ms. Enright's statement is accurate, then why the complete 180 degree turn by the Democrats in their reaction to Gov. Dean's comments? Are the other Democrats standing up for their beliefs, or are they shooting themselves (and their party's chances for success in 2004) in the foot? Again, I'm very interested in hearing what other wieners have to say.
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PalpatineW
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#2 Posted on 2.11.03 2231.29
Reposted on: 2.11.10 2231.56
No, black people don't own guns. They are a monolithic entity, with a hive mind, just like the Borg. And there's nothing racist about that belief, either.
Gugs
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#3 Posted on 2.11.03 2252.35
Reposted on: 2.11.10 2252.41
    Originally posted by PalpatineW
    No, black people don't own guns. They are a monolithic entity, with a hive mind, just like the Borg. And there's nothing racist about that belief, either.


Well, according to the Reduced Shakespeare Company, black people are like Klingons more than the Borg. If anything, Nazi Germans were the Borg.

I should really stop referencing the RSC.
DrDirt
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#4 Posted on 3.11.03 1152.21
Reposted on: 3.11.10 1155.33
    Originally posted by Downtown Bookie
    Howard Dean:

    "I still want to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks. We can't beat George Bush unless we appeal to a broad cross-section of Democrats. We have working white families in the south voting for tax cuts for the richest 1 percent while their children remain with no health care. The dividing of working people by race has been a cornerstone of Republican politics for the last three decades starting with Richard Nixon. ... The only way we're going to beat George Bush is if southern white working families and African-American working families come together under the Democratic tent, as they did under FDR"


It would be great for all working class families to come together under anyone's tent. However, and I don't have the exact statistics, but in the period that FDR was President, I doubt that too many blacks of any status were voting for Bush, especially in the South. The flag analogy is just lame anyhow. Lat time I was in in the rural south , I didn't see many flags in pickups. Maybe he should have said gun racks. I hate it when pols of any persuasion lower themselves tot he level of the common man. Lastly, dividing people by race or socioeconomic status is a hallmark of both parties.
Grimis
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#5 Posted on 3.11.03 1210.44
Reposted on: 3.11.10 1216.02
Either way Dean is a moron. He should have left well-enough alone because he is still the likely winner of the Democratic nomination from here on out. This is not a good time to get foot-in-mouth disease.

(edited by Grimis on 3.11.03 1312)
Madame Manga
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#6 Posted on 3.11.03 1253.57
Reposted on: 3.11.10 1253.58
I haven't really read up on Dean yet. I am not sure whether he puts things that way because he wants to jolt his hearers out of settled assumptions, or if he's just got a big sloppy mouth.

But if he means that the Democrats have to start appealing to people other than the bicoastal liberal set if they want to win national elections, he's right, on pure mathematical principles. Winning New York and California does you no good if you lose the entire South and Midwest. IMO, speaking as a registered Democrat, there are too many Democrats who like to sneer at the great unwashed masses and dismiss their concerns as reactionary or out of step with some academic idea of progress. For better or worse, it's 'one person, one vote', not 'one graduate degree, one vote'.

MM
eviljonhunt81
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#7 Posted on 3.11.03 1316.37
Reposted on: 3.11.10 1316.39
    Originally posted by Grimis
    Either way Dean is a moron. He should have left well-enough alone because he is still the likely winner of the Democratic nomination from here on out. This is not a good time to get foot-in-mouth disease.

    (edited by Grimis on 3.11.03 1312)


He's not denying he said this. He's right, and should stand by his remark. Anyone can see that the Democrats have lost a lot of support among the rural and southern working class, and he's saying that they should do something about it. He's not suggesting going the Wallace route or anything.
Grimis
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#8 Posted on 3.11.03 1352.25
Reposted on: 3.11.10 1353.14
    Originally posted by eviljonhunt81
    He's right, and should stand by his remark. Anyone can see that the Democrats have lost a lot of support among the rural and southern working class, and he's saying that they should do something about it.
And he's right on that front. But it's in the delivery, and of course the natural hypocrisy of the reaction to it by some. Gephardt and Kerry have come along with the righteous indignation I would expect. The media though is nonplussed. There was more of a reaction to Haley Barbour's flag remakrs in Mississippi than there was this.
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#9 Posted on 3.11.03 1501.05
Reposted on: 3.11.10 1502.10
Maybe the media just can't find anything from Dean that seems racist. I'm sure some reporters had to go digging after that comment to see if there was any skeleton's in Dean's closet. Maybe they just haven't found them yet.

As for no Stars 'n Bars in the South? You must not drive through here much. We've got plenty of people who still celebrate the Confederate flag. For most of them, it's simply a Southern Pride thing though (at least the people I know).

-Jag
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#10 Posted on 3.11.03 1516.34
Reposted on: 3.11.10 1516.51
    Originally posted by Madame Manga
    But if he means that the Democrats have to start appealing to people other than the bicoastal liberal set if they want to win national elections, he's right, on pure mathematical principles. Winning New York and California does you no good if you lose the entire South and Midwest.


Arguably, maybe so, maybe not.

Al Gore won exactly one state that could be considered "South or Midwest" - New Mexico, with a whopping four electoral votes. Even then, had he taken New Hampshire (which he missed by 7,000 votes), Florida would have been irrelevant.

Of course, in 2000, there were several states with razor-thin margins. Gore was within striking distance in Florida, Missouri, Nevada, New Hampshire, Ohio, and arguably Tennessee and West Virginia. With small shifts (but with the Nader effect still in operation), Bush could've taken New Mexico, Wisconsin, Oregon or Minnesota.

Not that the country is pretty evenly divided, or anything.
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#11 Posted on 3.11.03 1526.57
Reposted on: 3.11.10 1529.01
    Originally posted by Madame Manga
    I haven't really read up on Dean yet. I am not sure whether he puts things that way because he wants to jolt his hearers out of settled assumptions, or if he's just got a big sloppy mouth.

    But if he means that the Democrats have to start appealing to people other than the bicoastal liberal set if they want to win national elections, he's right, on pure mathematical principles. Winning New York and California does you no good if you lose the entire South and Midwest. IMO, speaking as a registered Democrat, there are too many Democrats who like to sneer at the great unwashed masses and dismiss their concerns as reactionary or out of step with some academic idea of progress. For better or worse, it's 'one person, one vote', not 'one graduate degree, one vote'.

    MM


Madame Manga I agree in principal with what you say. I have been a registered Democrat since 1974 and have been extremely disappointed in the party for quite some time. The Dem's lost the South in the 1960's over the Civil Rights movement. The states they stand the greatest chance in is states like Florida were the demographics have shifted toward more northerners who have moved there. Maybe Georgia and a couple of other states fall in there as well.

They will never reclaim the heartland until they change their message and what they seem to stand for. They pander towards the lower socio-economic classes without actually proposing changes that will help them improve their station in life. The middle class working voter feels alienated at a national level. Dean or any of the other candidates aren't likely to change that.

If we are honest, at a national level how much of a difference exists between the leaders of the party. Most are upper class and out of touch with us. The only real difference I see is that the Dems want to control business and stay out of ur bedrooms while the Rep's want to exert more control over our personal lives while letting business do what the hell it wants.

The corrupting influence of power and keeping it or regaining it holds much more sway than the common good in far too many cases. Perhaps the major problem is that most of these leaders are fairly bankrupt of new ideas or the ability to think outside the norm.

Clinton won because he was able to convince people he had a message that appealed to them and styaed on it. Love him or hate him he may have been the best politicial mind elected to President in the last forty years. He may have had the morals of a muskrat but he was damned good at determining the right mesage and staying on it. I don't see any Dem's out there like that.

You may not like Bush but his single minded approach will likely get him reelected unless Iraq and the economy go totally south .
MoeGates
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#12 Posted on 3.11.03 2302.10
Reposted on: 3.11.10 2302.26
I spent the vast majority of my life in Wisconsin and Michigan - two states Gore won - and consider myself a Midwesterner through and through. Why people seem to consider these two states, or Iowa or Minnesota part of the bicostal elite is beyond me.

People look at a map and see a big hunk of red in the middle, and somehow conclude that that the GOP represents "America." That big hunk of Wyoming, Montana, Utah, Colorado, etc. look really impressive ON A MAP. BUt the idea of the amount of land you're on should get you more representation or votes went out in the 18th century. Most people actually LIVE one the coasts than in Oklahoma, but somehow the 3 million people in Oklahoma are "America" while the 21 million people in New York aren't. It's a complete myth - and one the Democratic Party buys into by the way - that the Democrats represent people with sociology graduate degrees in New York and San Francisco, and the GOP represents everyone else. Last time I checked, half a million more people voted for a Dem than a Republican, and I'm pretty sure they all weren't brie-eating Upper West Siders. Both parties have their elites and their masses. You can say the Democratic party is the party of Hollywood Producers and Shyster Lawyers, and the Republican party is the party of Criminal Corporate Executives and Televangilists. Or you can say the Democratic party is the party of the working mom in the South Bronx, and the Republican party is the party of the lunchpail dad in small-town Mississippi. Both descriptions - while stereotypical - I'd consider fair. The main difference as I see it, is that the Democratic elite - misguided as some may think - geuinely tries to help the regular Americans that vote for them, while the Republican elite laughs their ass off all the way to the bank at the regular Americans that voted for them. The Democratic elite asks "how can I help others?," or at the worst "how can I help those people that voted for me so they keep voting for me." The Republican elite asks "how can I help myself, and make it look like I'm helping the people that voted for me?" I have faith in people that the GOP won't be able to pull their scam forever, and I think Dean's a guy capable of exposing this.

I completely agree with Dean. It leaves me incredibely frustrated that once rock-solid Democratic states like Texas, Tennessee, Kentucky, and Louisiana have become solidly GOP states mostly due to the Democrats failure to connect with regular people there anymore. But I fail to see why Republicans point this out, and DEMOCRATS point it out just as much, but somehow the GOP's utter failure to connect with regular people in Rhode Island, or New York, or Massachusettes, or Hawaii, or California, is somehow forgivable because these states border an ocean, and so their inhabitants must not be "real" Americans. "Real" Americans, of course, are all busy driving their pickup truck from their ranch in Wyoming to go do some hunting and then vote for a Republican.



(edited by MoeGates on 4.11.03 0017)
Grimis
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#13 Posted on 4.11.03 0516.54
Reposted on: 4.11.10 0516.55
    Originally posted by MoeGates
    Last time I checked, half a million more people voted for a Dem than a Republican,

Here's an interesting thought for discussion. Somebody suggested to me that the Democrats don't try to win the Electoral vote, they try to win the popular vote on the coasts, and that if they went for the win and not the popularity contest aspect of it, the Democrats would be better off....discuss.
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#14 Posted on 4.11.03 0853.04
Reposted on: 4.11.10 0853.17
Moe, many Democrat foot soldiers and lower level pols may be interested in helping to improve things. But the people who are in charge and allowed to run the party are not. They are interested in obtaining and holding onto power. the feel the way to do this is to pander to our worst instincts of fear and greed. I am a Dem who sees this and am deeply upset about it. People like dean are really preaching about redistributing wealth, no thelping people at the bottom. If we could do that tomorrow, in two or three years things would be back to the way they were and it would be hard to tell anything had happened. No Dem or Rep has told me how we educate and provide the tools necessary to improve the lives of those at the bottom. The regular Joe and Jane Doe don't want hand outs, the want the ability to work hard and provide a good life for their children and equality of opportunity.

You are right in that "Real Americans" exist on the coasts and thier concerns are pretty similar to those in the heartland like myself.
eviljonhunt81
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#15 Posted on 4.11.03 1333.28
Reposted on: 4.11.10 1333.33
Grimis: I can see how it looks that way at times, but I find it hard to believe. Clinton and Gore are both from the South, and it seems to me that the Democrats are making a decent effort to wint the middle states, but I think they are terrified of losing California or New York (which, like almost every state in the Union, are not as solidly pro-Democrat as some would have you believe), and consider those two states more important in the presidential election. If the Democrats were to lose those two, they would really have no chance of winning the presidency, and they know that. It may not be the "base" of the party, as some would have you believe, but it is still an important part of their potential winning coalition, so they have to keep them, but they are far from pandering to them.

I think it's easier for Republicans to get a boost in the electoral collage with their virtual stranglehold on some of the low population Western states.
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#16 Posted on 4.11.03 1740.23
Reposted on: 4.11.10 1741.07
    Originally posted by eviljonhunt81
    Grimis: I can see how it looks that way at times, but I find it hard to believe. Clinton and Gore are both from the South, and it seems to me that the Democrats are making a decent effort to wint the middle states, but I think they are terrified of losing California or New York (which, like almost every state in the Union, are not as solidly pro-Democrat as some would have you believe), and consider those two states more important in the presidential election. If the Democrats were to lose those two, they would really have no chance of winning the presidency, and they know that. It may not be the "base" of the party, as some would have you believe, but it is still an important part of their potential winning coalition, so they have to keep them, but they are far from pandering to them.

    I think it's easier for Republicans to get a boost in the electoral collage with their virtual stranglehold on some of the low population Western states.


I agree that the Dems are making an effort in the south, however they are wasting their time if they spend much time in the plains states and the mountain states. While not big population states, the electoral college votes add up. They would be fools not to make sure their bases on the coasts were secure.

From what I have read, 35 - 40% of the electorate will vote Dem and their minds are made up by the convention. 35 - 40% will vote Rep. no matter what. this holds true unless their parties candidate is a real fruit loop. The candidates must win that 20 - 30% that aren't sure who they vote for. In some states only a fool would waste his time, either because there is no hope or beacause they have it locked up. That was why bashing Bush for not worring about CA was silly. Why should his waste his time and resources.
eviljonhunt81
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#17 Posted on 4.11.03 1758.03
Reposted on: 4.11.10 1758.30
The big 4 electoral college states (California, Texas, Florida and New York) are not as solidly Democratic or Republican as people think, though. Each state has consistently elected both parties to state wide office.
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#18 Posted on 5.11.03 1542.05
Reposted on: 5.11.10 1543.51
    Originally posted by eviljonhunt81
    The big 4 electoral college states (California, Texas, Florida and New York) are not as solidly Democratic or Republican as people think, though. Each state has consistently elected both parties to state wide office.


You are right, however, don't confuse state and local elections with national party politics. Although not one of the big four here is an example. I don't think Kansas has gone for a Dem in the Presidential election in 70 years. However, they just elected a Dem. as Gov. last year and when we moved here in the early '90's the state house for a Dem majority. Both Senators have been rep forever. Many southern states won't go Dem in a national election but will vote in Dem's for state office.

State parties and their dynamics are much diiferent than the national ones. A liberal Dem in Kansas is a moderate to conservative rep. where I moved from.
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#19 Posted on 6.11.03 0216.17
Reposted on: 6.11.10 0218.09
Hey, Dean isn't getting it so bad. At least he isn't being asked to step down or anything by morons like Maxine Waters.
Scott Summets
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#20 Posted on 6.11.03 1212.09
Reposted on: 6.11.10 1215.18
I find it funny that all the people I know with rebel flags on their pickup trucks are driving souped-up Trucks with huge tires, live in 500,000 dollar homes, and have Trucks honestly worth 50,000. I doubt these are the people Dean is going for......
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