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The 7 - Current Events & Politics - Michael Moore responds to critics
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eviljonhunt81
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#1 Posted on 21.10.03 1256.35
Reposted on: 21.10.10 1257.29
I haven't seen Bowling for Columbine yet, but I've read some of the claims that it contains lies. Here's his rebuttal to those claims. I have to say, he does a good job, although why didn't he do this a few months ago?
Promote this thread!
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#2 Posted on 21.10.03 1412.17
Reposted on: 21.10.10 1412.22
    Originally posted by eviljonhunt81
    I haven't seen Bowling for Columbine yet, but I've read some of the claims that it contains lies. Here's his rebuttal to those claims. I have to say, he does a good job, although why didn't he do this a few months ago?


Now is the perfect time. Gets the critics stirred up again and gets him more press which can't hurt sales. People in his business, regardless of which polar opposite you inhabit (Limbaugh and Hannity vs. Moore and Franken), build their careers and bank accounts on keeping things stirred up. For all his purported leanings, I doubt Mr. Moore is a stupid businessman. In our world outrageous sells bigtime.
OlFuzzyBastard
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#3 Posted on 21.10.03 1523.15
Reposted on: 21.10.10 1523.32
    Originally posted by eviljonhunt81
    I haven't seen Bowling for Columbine yet, but I've read some of the claims that it contains lies. Here's his rebuttal to those claims. I have to say, he does a good job, although why didn't he do this a few months ago?


You haven't seen it? Wow, that puts you on even ground with almost all of it's critics.
Davros
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#4 Posted on 21.10.03 1535.39
Reposted on: 21.10.10 1538.06
Yo OldFuzzy, right on man!!!

Did you catch that episode of the View when all four of those excuses for women wouldn't let Mr. Moore get a word in edgewise? It's ridiculous. If you have a guest on a show, and ask him/her a question, you should let them answer. He did a good job making them look like fools.

As I have said one before in this forum, Michael Moore is the man.
Grimis
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#5 Posted on 21.10.03 1544.49
Reposted on: 21.10.10 1544.49
    Originally posted by Davros
    As I have said one before in this forum, Michael Moore is the man.

I didn't know boldface lying mad one a man...
ThreepMe
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#6 Posted on 21.10.03 1550.04
Reposted on: 21.10.10 1550.15
    Originally posted by Grimis
      Originally posted by Davros
      As I have said one before in this forum, Michael Moore is the man.

    I didn't know boldface lying mad one a man...


I didn't know lack of proof made one right.
Davros
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#7 Posted on 21.10.03 1637.14
Reposted on: 21.10.10 1638.12
    Originally posted by Grimis
      Originally posted by Davros
      As I have said one before in this forum, Michael Moore is the man.

    I didn't know boldface lying mad one a man...


Uh, is that supposed to make me grimace?

IKM!
Grimis
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#8 Posted on 21.10.03 2014.49
Reposted on: 21.10.10 2015.46
    Originally posted by ThreepMe
    I didn't know lack of proof made one right.

Glad to see us keeping the discussion on Moore!
Nag
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Y!:
#9 Posted on 21.10.03 2154.32
Reposted on: 21.10.10 2155.28
A few quick question to all who have seen this movie?

A. What percentage of this documentary is documenting NRA country folk who like to kill bambi in the wilds of West Virginia?

B. What percentage of this documentary is attacking NRA country folk who like to kill bambi in the wilds of West Virginia?

C. What percentage of this documentary documents or attacks gangbangers and drugdealers in Crenshaw or Lawndale who like to kill each other?

D. If a significant portion of the film deals with those in letter C, did Mr Moore find a good sociologist to link those 'pompous backward rednecks' in A and B for the problems with 'victims of capitalism' in C.

I've never seen the movie, since Im 'stupid'. I'm just, really, really, curious.



RYDER FAKIN
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#10 Posted on 22.10.03 0009.28
Reposted on: 22.10.10 0009.43
I never really had a problem with Moore, but in all these years I still can't figure out what he is trying to prove in his movies and writing...I watched Roger and Me when it first came out and then again about six months ago - and had the same feeling both times: good movie, very entertaining, but what was his point?

Take this for example - from the article linked above, clarifying a "lie" about Bowling for Columbine:

The Truth: In the spring of 2001, I saw a real ad in a real newspaper in Michigan announcing a real promotion that this real bank had where they would give you a gun (as your up-front interest) for opening up a Certificate of Deposit account. They promoted this in publications all over the country – "More Bang for Your Buck!"

There was news coverage of this bank giving away guns, long before I even shot the scene there. The Chicago Sun Times wrote about how the bank would "hand you a gun" with the purchase of a CD. Those are the precise words used by a bank employee in the film.

When you see me going in to the bank and walking out with my new gun in "Bowling for Columbine" – that is exactly as it happened. Nothing was done out of the ordinary other than to phone ahead and ask permission to let me bring a camera in to film me opening up my account. I walked into that bank in northern Michigan for the first time ever on that day in June 2001, and, with cameras rolling, gave the bank teller $1,000 – and opened up a 20-year CD account. After you see me filling out the required federal forms ("How do you spell Caucasian?") – which I am filling out here for the first time – the bank manager faxed it to the bank's main office for them to do the background check. The bank is a licensed federal arms dealer and thus can have guns on the premises and do the instant background checks (the ATF's Federal Firearms database—which includes all federally approved gun dealers—lists North Country Bank with Federal Firearms License #4-38-153-01-5C-39922).

Within 10 minutes, the "OK" came through from the firearms background check agency and, 5 minutes later, just as you see it in the film, they handed me a Weatherby Mark V Magnum rifle (If you'd like to see the outtakes, click here).

And it is that very gun that I still own to this day. I have decided the best thing to do with this gun is to melt it down into a bust of John Ashcroft and auction it off on E-Bay (more details on that later). All the proceeds will go to The Brady Campaign To Prevent Gun Violence to fight all these lying gun nuts who have attacked my film and make it possible on a daily basis for America's gun epidemic to rage on.


Right on. And I watched the web clip, very interesting. But his point appears to be "Guns are Evil, NRA is bad, we must melt down all weapons"...well then, after he was given the GUN, why didn't he pop a cap in someone's ass? I have seen him defend / promote this part of the movie on talk shows, but not once have I heard anyone point out:

- You were given a gun

- Why is no one in your general vincinity dead?

How is the gun causing the violence? What caused Michael Moore *not* to start firing bullets into the crowd? Am I reading too much into this or between too many lines? He seems to be disproving his point that *guns* kill, when he was practically force fed a high powered rifle and managed to not blow people's heads off. I'm not sure what the gun has to do with anything, seeing as there may have been 27 other customers that performed the same transaction and no reported crime, at least not that day. I'm not sure what Moore is trying to prove with this, but as I mentioned above that's nothing new. Surely someone else has noticed this.

And wow...the late news just told the story of some kid, on a dare from his friends, was fucking around on top of a subway and got wiped out because he forgot to duck...and then fell off and was run over by another subway. That ain't right.

FLEA
Big G
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#11 Posted on 22.10.03 0040.22
Reposted on: 22.10.10 0040.43
I learnt to shoot a gun when I was 8 years old. I was given my first gun when I was 13. I am currently a licensed firearms owner and own 5 guns. I am yet to shoot anybody (And I was in the military for 12 years).

I really want to have a rant on this, but I'm sure everybody here has heard it all before, so I won't.

Having said that, handing out guns with bank accounts is a touch strange.

G
A-MOL
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#12 Posted on 22.10.03 0425.53
Reposted on: 22.10.10 0426.36
The movie, as I saw it, didn't say "Guns are bad". Moore was more asking "Why do we feel the need to arm ourselves to the teeth?" and "Do guns make us safe or do they add to our fear?".
Net Hack Slasher
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#13 Posted on 22.10.03 0811.25
Reposted on: 22.10.10 0812.49
    Originally posted by Davros
    Yo OldFuzzy, right on man!!!

    Did you catch that episode of the View when all four of those excuses for women wouldn't let Mr. Moore get a word in edgewise? It's ridiculous. If you have a guest on a show, and ask him/her a question, you should let them answer. He did a good job making them look like fools.

    As I have said one before in this forum, Michael Moore is the man.


I actually saw that! It was pretty funny. The guest host kept pretty much accusing him of being a liar during the "Give out guns in banks" part. And he tried replying but the idoit woman wouldn't let him and kept talking over him LOL... But it wasn't too bad, confrontation on TV is good.
Davros
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#14 Posted on 22.10.03 0816.52
Reposted on: 22.10.10 0818.07
"How is the gun causing the violence? What caused Michael Moore *not* to start firing bullets into the crowd? Am I reading too much into this or between too many lines? He seems to be disproving his point that *guns* kill, when he was practically force fed a high powered rifle and managed to not blow people's heads off. I'm not sure what the gun has to do with anything, seeing as there may have been 27 other customers that performed the same transaction and no reported crime, at least not that day. I'm not sure what Moore is trying to prove with this, but as I mentioned above that's nothing new. Surely someone else has noticed this." --quoted from Flea

Guns are lethal tools that some people unfortunately use to quell their fear, or boost their egos, which equates back to quelling fear. Guns are important tools (don't have to be in the military like myself to know that :))however, the issue is, some people view them as toys. Others view them as power over another. Some of us view them as a defense mechanism, or as a means to protect family and home. Yet the (alarming) number per capita that people here in the states owning guns versus other countries, is way out of proportion, and the number of deaths caused by firearms in the U.S. versus other countries per capita too, is out of proportion. This shouldn't be in the world's most civilized country.
The point Mr. Moore is trying to make, is why are we Americans arming ourselves (yes, to the teeth), involving ourselves in a small arms race with our next door neighbor? What social devices are being used to make us Americans fear and hate so much, why, and how.

BTW Nag, you're not stupid buddy. Seriously, just watch the movie with an open mind, and I'm sure you will at least find the subject matter interesting, even if you don't necessarily agree with it.

And what is the difference between "backward red necks" and dope dealers and gangbangers killing each other? NONE. Some of these peoples are disaffected, and so filled with fear and hate, they'd rather destroy each other than find a means to have successful lives, so what would it matter if this documentary addressed that or not? The issue is again, WHY are they killing each other, what causes the fear and hate.
Grimis
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#15 Posted on 22.10.03 0837.22
Reposted on: 22.10.10 0837.29
    Originally posted by Davros
    The point Mr. Moore is trying to make, is why are we Americans arming ourselves (yes, to the teeth), involving ourselves in a small arms race with our next door neighbor? What social devices are being used to make us Americans fear and hate so much, why, and how.

Um, last time I checked guns are inanimate and don't kill people. But they're lack of animation also makes them unable to emote. How, exactly, does the exercising of a constitutional right to self-defense create fear nad hate. That's the most novel argument to pissing on the 2nd I've hard yet.
A-MOL
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#16 Posted on 22.10.03 0840.00
Reposted on: 22.10.10 0841.07
(deleted by CRZ on 23.10.03 1255)
Davros
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#17 Posted on 22.10.03 0912.58
Reposted on: 22.10.10 0914.20
"Um, last time I checked guns are inanimate and don't kill people. But they're lack of animation also makes them unable to emote. How, exactly, does the exercising of a constitutional right to self-defense create fear nad hate. That's the most novel argument to pissing on the 2nd I've hard yet."

What?! That makes no sense. You once again are using conservative rhetoric and band-aid thinking rather that looking at the actual issue. No kidding guns are inanimate, none of us here are stupid. Constitiutional right to protect ourselves has nothing to do with a social construct that is inflicting fear and hate onto our public. Did you watch Bowling for Columbine? Seriously, did you watch it? Is there anything, ANYTHING in that documentary that questions the validity of one of our most important amendments? NO!

So again Grimis, before you fire off cool-guy sarcasm, and make yourself look like you are unable to address real issues, know the subject matter, and stop poppong off Sean Hannity rhetoric. That doesn't fly here, and neither does trying to confuse 2nd Amendment rights with the fact there are some scared and hateful Americans out there that own guns as a means of giving themselves a security blanket.

(edited by Davros on 22.10.03 0813)

(edited by Davros on 22.10.03 0834)
ThreepMe
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#18 Posted on 22.10.03 0920.48
Reposted on: 22.10.10 0921.59
    Originally posted by Grimis
      Originally posted by Davros
      The point Mr. Moore is trying to make, is why are we Americans arming ourselves (yes, to the teeth), involving ourselves in a small arms race with our next door neighbor? What social devices are being used to make us Americans fear and hate so much, why, and how.

    Um, last time I checked guns are inanimate and don't kill people. But they're lack of animation also makes them unable to emote. How, exactly, does the exercising of a constitutional right to self-defense create fear nad hate. That's the most novel argument to pissing on the 2nd I've hard yet.


I guess some people need to see the "4" put at the end of 2+2.

No, guns themsleves lack the motor skills to get up and kill another (at least for now, see the phanlanx system equipped on most Navy vessels). But, they do make it REALLY, REALLY, REALLY easy for someone with the motor skills to kill another.

It's the lazy criminal's way out.

Want to rob a bank? Gee what's the easiest way? I could use an olive fork...Nah, too hard...I could use an Icee straw! But what will I use in my Icee? I got it, I'll go get a Glock, they are easier to get than a driver's license!

Want to kill a spouse for cheating? Want to kill a relative for money? Anything other than a gun requires actual effort, more skill, and more thought.

Guns are just about as easy as your mouse. Just point and click.
Grimis
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#19 Posted on 22.10.03 0933.42
Reposted on: 22.10.10 0934.38
Here is the argument nobody on this board who is a gun-grabber can answer: How is the banning of the private ownership of guns going to make anybody safer if you acknowledge(and just about every one of you have) that criminals will have guns anyway?

    Originally posted by Davros
    Constitiutional right to protect ourselves has nothing to do with a scial construct that is inflicting fear and hate onto our public.
So let me get this straight; the inanmate gun "is inflicting fear and hate onto our public?" What the hell? Last time I chekced, the public feared CRIMINALS, not guns.

    Originally posted by Davros
    So again Grimis, before you fire off cool-guy sarcasm, and make yourself look like you are unable to address real issues, know the subject matter, and stop poppong off Sean Hannity rhetoric.

That's the problem you have here, in that I have no need to get my opinion spoonfed to me by others and then when I do address the real issues with factual data people choose to ignore it. In the meantime, you're spouting off about fear and hate that is in your bizarre construct caused by guns themselves when in actuality its criminals and a lenient criminal justice system that returns criminals to the streets.

Facts are facts. Your worldvew is clouded by your insistence that Americans have no right to self-defense. If you choose to disregard them your ignorance is no skin off of my back.
OlFuzzyBastard
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#20 Posted on 22.10.03 0943.02
Reposted on: 22.10.10 0943.07
The point of the movie is not "guns are evil and cause violence". One of the main points in the movie, one of the few conclusive conclusions that Moore comes to (since the movie is designed more to raise questions), is that guns do not cause violence - and he backs that up with the high rate of gun ownership and low rate of violence in Canada.

Please see the movie or don't fucking comment on it. You people sound less informed than usual.
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