TheCheat
Tocino Level: 20
Posts: 21/58 EXP: 38404 For next: 4035
Since: 8.7.03 From: Strongbadia
Since last post: 6769 days Last activity: 6739 days
| #1 Posted on 9.9.03 1333.27 Reposted on: 9.9.10 1333.57 | I believe Jeb went over this in the Obtuse Angle awhile back, but it's only been enhanced by the surprising success of Rosey, S.H.I.T. and StormDust. It seems like the cure for WWE's ills are sitting right in front of them; let the wrestlers have fun.
Think about it. A few months ago, when Rosey was still in 3 Minute Warning, he was just a big angry Samoan. Not a nice thing to meet in a dark alley, but unimpressive. Everyone on RAW is angry. Shane is angry because Bischoff hit on his Mom and Kane electrocuted his junk. Kane is angry because he's big and bald and insane. RVD is angry because he lost his best friend and tag team partner, and because the vending machine's all out of Fritos. HHH is angry because people keep making him drink CGI bees. Hell, even the announcers are angry.
In this sea of festering anger, it's good to see some lightheartedness. It was outright astounding how over Rosey was after a few weeks of letting him play around with his "Superhero in training" gimmick, when in 3 Minute Warning he couldn't get heat in a burning building. And Lance Storm, who the fans chanted "Boring" at mere months before, had a great match, a great pop and, from the looks of things, a great time.
I think that's one of the reasons why Mic Foley was always so over, and still gets unbelievable pops whenever he shows up on WWE TV; he had fun with his characters. He had plenty of intensity when he needed to, but for the most part he was simply a fun guy. Think about DX; before it became bogged down with conflicting storylines, it was just a bunch of guys goofing off and enjoying themselves. In return they became possibly the most over stable WWE's had in years.
I'm not saying HHH should replace ol' Mjolnir with a rubber sledgehammer that squeaks when you hit people with it, but let the wrestlers enjoy themselves. Give more humorous backstage antics. There's a limit to how silly you can get, of course. But it just makes sense. Besides, if the wrestlers are enjoying themselves, they'll work harder and make better matches, making more people want to watch them. Everyone wins. Promote this thread! | | Freeway
Scrapple Level: 119
Posts: 1290/3504 EXP: 18679458 For next: 249888
Since: 3.1.02 From: Calgary
Since last post: 3740 days Last activity: 3427 days
| #2 Posted on 9.9.03 1505.00 Reposted on: 9.9.10 1513.57 | I agree. The most entertaining characters in wrestling were all people having fun.
-Hart Foundation-era Bret Hart (and hell, the whole Hart Foundation) -Owen Hart, always -Mick Foley, always -Funlovin' bad-ass face Stone Cold & paranoid hug-wanting heel Stone Cold -Goofy Kurt Angle -Chris Benoit in any kind of title hunt -Shane McMahon making fun of anybody | BigVitoMark
Lap cheong Level: 82
Posts: 282/1509 EXP: 5207494 For next: 1755
Since: 10.8.02 From: Queen's University, Canada
Since last post: 6812 days Last activity: 6722 days
| ICQ: | |
| |
| #3 Posted on 9.9.03 1605.36 Reposted on: 9.9.10 1605.53 | Just give the fans a reason to respond to a guy and most of the time they will. "He's angry", "He's intense", "He's crazy" and the like just don't cut it. Think about it...before he was SHIT, Rosey was just a big angry guy. Before Victoria, Stevie Richards was "a wacko". On Smackdown, Bill DeMott's character was that he was intense. Big deal. Angry, intense wackos are hardly stand-out characters. Those characteristics may work as PART of an overall personality, but on their own they don't mean anything. Wrestling fans want to be entertained, and if they are given a reason to care about any given guy, they will.
I don't know if it's a matter of a guy having fun, but rather the guy being believable in his role. I buy Rosey as the bumbling sidekick. I certainly buy Lance Storm as the stonefaced guy struggling to have a personality. I think that's why they're getting reactions - there is now more to them than just being generic wrestlers. The same as bad actors don't sell movies because they're bad in their roles, wrestlers in roles they aren't suited for also tend to flop. It's just not entertaining. The key is to find something for a guy that he can do without it being beyond his limits as a performer. | Nag
Landjager Level: 66
Posts: 378/904 EXP: 2391078 For next: 70786
Since: 10.1.03 From: Enter your city here
Since last post: 5612 days Last activity: 3667 days
| | Y!: | |
|
| #4 Posted on 10.9.03 0140.37 Reposted on: 10.9.10 0141.13 | I couldn't disagree more! As a matter of fact, one of my biggest complaints over the past two very bleak years in this industry is there has been way too much lighthearted comedy, and very little in which to take seriously.
Not to say comedy doesn't have a role in wrestling. It does, when it is used right and used by a character that is charismatic and talented enough to be selected for that role. It may also be beneficial to create a comedy character when less than 90 percent of the rooster isn't playing that same comedic role.
This is a big reason why Kurt Angle and E&C got so over in 2000. As I'm sure you can remember, WWE was coming off a period marred in the occult, overt sexuality, and excessive potty humor. That is why the trio became such a success, they were different, and they were good. They repaved the way for bumbling fools everywhere to reach the high road in the WWF.
Not only that, they opened the flood gates. Ever since that time WWE creative has been under the mentality that comedy is the means in creating the stars of tomorrow. What worked for Kurt Angle in 2000 isn't going to work for Rosey in 2003. Just because Edge and Christian's antics 3 years ago got such a reaction from the crowd, doesn't mean they should be archetypical icons in that little manual of creating new stars.
Sure you may have gotten a belly laugh in watching those big bad invaders singing Bette Midler then doing the slip and slide thanks to Kurt Angle and a milk truck. But did you take the Invasion seriously after that? It may have been cute for Golddust to give his wig to Goldberg, but did it not work to tarnish Goldberg's bad ass reputation? I can go on forever with the current formula, so lets just go full circle. What version of Kane got the bigger reaction 'the Spinarooni Kane' or the 'angst ridden maskless Kane'? The angst ridden maskless Kane. And why? Because now, that's the same breath of fresh air that made Kurt Angle, Christian and Edge 3 years ago. | HMD
Andouille Level: 96
Posts: 581/2131 EXP: 8773638 For next: 215181
Since: 8.6.02 From: Canada
Since last post: 2532 days Last activity: 2532 days
| #5 Posted on 10.9.03 0221.36 Reposted on: 10.9.10 0221.42 | I question the sanity of anyone who thinks Rosey's "over" now. This Super Hero In Training thing is not a stroke of genius. Try to understand that. Getting a slightly better reaction than he was getting before is not saying much, but let's not pretend the divide is as great as that between Ring-Master Steve and Stone Cold Steve.
The skits aren't funny. Yes, I realize that assessment is realitve but for the love of Christ, I guarantee you this stuff wouldn't even get polite laughter on Conan or Leno or Letterman. Hurricane is not exactly (insert favourite comedian here) and he's not charismatic enough to carry the 500-pound load they've stapled to him. This supposedly "over" gimmick was in the lowest-rated quarter this past RAW. I am really tired of hearing how wonderful this is. This is wrestlecrap waiting to happen, but the IWC rule is to worship everyone under 230 pounds. I guess that works for Hurricane, but let's not carry it over to Rosey based on association.
Let me speak on one more thing in regards to this gimmick. You wanna know why 3 Minute Warning didn't get over? In my opnion, it was because they couldn't work. Now, you can crush all the old ladies and golden midgets and crack-snorting MSG legends you want, but if when the bell goes you amount to a big puddle of monkey cum, you can't be marketed. Rosey still sucks. Crap is crap. You can take crap and call it nougat-filled chocolate, but it's still crap. Ultimately, this is going to fall flat, unless; that is, Rosey learns how to wrestle.
This is the same problem with Mark Henry. He can't work. He was the original olympic hero, and it failed. He then became a black supremacist and ultimately that failed. He then became a ladies man, and, credit where due, he certainly managed to distill a paradoxically great amount of mileage out of that brain-vomit of a gimmick, but ultimately, it failed. Then he came back as really strong Mark Henry. He moved cars. He failed. Now he's really strong Mark Henry combined with black supremacist Mark Henry. It will fail, because he still can't work.
And before we look to the Warriors and Goldbergs of the world as examples of poor workers who still got over, I would question the idea that these guys are poor workers. They're bad wrestlers, but if you can get people to buy into the two moves you can actually do, and can convince the fans to overlook massive flaws on your part, you must be doing something right.
Now give a guy who can work something "fun" and you really may be onto something. | DevinAndrews
Weisswurst Level: 11
Posts: 3/16 EXP: 5539 For next: 447
Since: 13.9.03 From: St. Louis, MO
Since last post: 7426 days Last activity: 7425 days
| #6 Posted on 13.9.03 1626.42 Reposted on: 13.9.10 1626.52 | To be honest... this theory does hold some water... some of the highest ratings in Raw history were times when they were just havin' fun...
For example, the "This is Your Life" segment with The Rock and Mankind... and also a time around I believe the Invasion when out of nowhere the Rock and Stone Cold just sang together at the end of Raw (wow that was weird!)
Point being, my favorite segments on Raw recently are the funny parts like Stone Cold/Jericho from last week, the Hurricane/Rosey stuff, and ESPECIALLY Dust/Storm... Last week was the first time I've ever had a smile on my face during a Lance Storm match.
So... if you'd rather see a more lighthearted Raw overall... gimme a
DOO WAH DIDDY DIDDY DUM DIDDY DOO!
Devin
P.S. For the guy who thinks Rosey can't work... He's one hell of a worker who was saddled with an impossible gimmick... They built 3 Minute Warning up as monsters who no one could touch in all those run-ins, but then they didn't cleanly put them over any team, thus undermining the whole thing... Now, I have my theories that the reason was Jamal's attitude, but regardless it didn't give Rosey a chance...
Rosey is unbelievably agile for his size, can control his power moves, and can actually perform a split leg moonsault (see Survivor Series last year for proof... he gets knocked off the top, but if you watch he executes a split-legged moonsault perfectly)
Anyway, given the chance to actually shine Rosey will show you that he's not only in WWE because of his bloodline...
Devin
(edited by DevinAndrews on 13.9.03 1433) | fuelinjected
Banger Level: 106
Posts: 1525/2679 EXP: 12269259 For next: 402725
Since: 12.10.02 From: Canada
Since last post: 6697 days Last activity: 6697 days
| #7 Posted on 13.9.03 1720.07 Reposted on: 13.9.10 1721.43 | I can't recall comedy drawing money and selling PPV's or getting people to the house shows. Stone Cold's big run? No. Hogan's? No. Bruno? No. Backlund? No. Flair? No. nWo? No.
Comedy has its place in the midcard but when you're putting wigs on Goldberg, having Kurt Angle wear a cowboy hat, Steve Austin singing songs, it's the wrong place and wrong time no matter how entertaining it may seem.
Mick Foley, DX, and The Rock were entertaining in a funny way. Those aforemenioned people were funny in haha you're a dork way. That 'laughing at the wrestler' comedy may get a guy over to a certain point but will prevent him from being any sort of major player (ie Kurt Angle).
And I agree with Hogan's My Dad (ha!), I still haven't laughed once at Rosey. It's not funny at all, it's stupid and pointless. And just because Rosey can do Elix Skipper's move, doesn't make him a good worker. | Tribal Prophet
Andouille Level: 95
Posts: 565/2072 EXP: 8490696 For next: 177942
Since: 9.1.02 From: Winnipeg, MB, Canada
Since last post: 2927 days Last activity: 2187 days
| #8 Posted on 13.9.03 1950.01 Reposted on: 13.9.10 1950.40 | Well, to throw my point of view in as 'fact' too, I'm going to say that comedy works to make the overall show better. It's a great diversion from guys who basically have the exact same character. Remember when Steve and Triple H got hot, and EVERYONE was suddenly a bad-ass who wouldn't take shit from anyone? They all failed because people were already getting the bad-assedness that they wanted by the two guys who could do it better than the rest.
It's like when WCW was on top and close to putting the WWE under. They didn't do it JUST by the nWo, or JUST from the cruiserweights, or anything else. It was the variety that having such a mixed show brought to them that made them more fun to watch. The same basic formula applies to what sort of characters to show on tv. The same way that wrestlers (well, the good ones) well watch the matches so they don't do the same moves that are being done by others because the audience won't care when it's done repeatedly, the wrestlers also have to go out with different attitudes and characters than the guys that have gone before them.
Tribal Prophet
ps. Everybody KNOWS the way to get a guy over is to give him a hand signal that the fans can do. "WHAT TIME IS IT???" :) | Lexus
Andouille Level: 93
Posts: 379/1975 EXP: 7905185 For next: 147655
Since: 2.1.02 From: Stafford, VA
Since last post: 1453 days Last activity: 199 days
| #9 Posted on 13.9.03 2256.50 Reposted on: 13.9.10 2257.10 | Originally posted by Nag Not only that, they opened the flood gates. Ever since that time WWE creative has been under the mentality that comedy is the means in creating the stars of tomorrow. What worked for Kurt Angle in 2000 isn't going to work for Rosey in 2003. Just because Edge and Christian's antics 3 years ago got such a reaction from the crowd, doesn't mean they should be archetypical icons in that little manual of creating new stars.
Okay, I get what you're saying, but consider this.
Lance Storm and Rosey are the most over they've been in their respective WWE Careers. Granted, they've not been long careers, but seeing as how they have nowhere to go but up, it can't be bad.
And true, comedy works for some people, and not for others. I haven't seen any other singles wrestlers truly going off on comedy alone to get over this year.
However, in regards to the Tag Team wrestlers using comedy as a vehicle to get over, Edge and Christian far from pioneered this, and I have not seen any others yet go off on this either. Granted, there was the Jericho/Christian "ass cream" incident, which really can't be seen as a flop or damaging to careers since nobody brought it up yet but me (IE, nobody really remembers). Today, there is one team that uses any comedy whatsoever, Los Guerreros, and last I checked, nobody was complaining about that either.
In short, having something to laugh about on wrestling is not a bad thing. I have not seen a Raw or Smackdown!, however, that had more than one comedy segment in quite a while.
So, if the floodgates get opened, and a total of 4 workers stumble out, wouldn't you say that it was more of a faucet? | BigVitoMark
Lap cheong Level: 82
Posts: 307/1509 EXP: 5207494 For next: 1755
Since: 10.8.02 From: Queen's University, Canada
Since last post: 6812 days Last activity: 6722 days
| ICQ: | |
| |
| #10 Posted on 13.9.03 2344.47 Reposted on: 13.9.10 2344.51 | Originally posted by Lexus
Okay, I get what you're saying, but consider this.
Lance Storm and Rosey are the most over they've been in their respective WWE Careers. Granted, they've not been long careers, but seeing as how they have nowhere to go but up, it can't be bad.
You could also make the point that neither guy has ever been all that over because neither has been given a genuine push. It's hard to get behind jobbers with no backstory or character. Lance Storm was just a guy who wrestles; Rosey was a fat guy who jumped people. Nothing to get too excited about there if you ask me.
I won't argue with Rosey being used in comedy...I don't think too highly of him and don't see a lot of potential in him so it's not as if the SHIT idea is costing them much in terms of lost opportunity. Storm, on the other hand, I still say would be over if they would let him win sometimes. They were so close...the 'boring' thing would have worked if instead of jobbing him out and turning him with Goldust they had him start winning matches. I still say the fact that the boring guy kept winning with straight wrestling would have pissed people off and had Lance over as a heel. Instead, he's stuck in what really looks to be a one or two note joke that has been used for one match but is already getting stale...and THAT is a waste of talent. | oldschoolhero
Knackwurst Level: 112
Posts: 1165/3059 EXP: 15238058 For next: 100195
Since: 2.1.02 From: nWo Country
Since last post: 5422 days Last activity: 5356 days
| #11 Posted on 14.9.03 0905.01 Reposted on: 14.9.10 0905.43 | "And just because Rosey can do Elix Skipper's move, doesn't make him a good worker."
Once again0and every time from now until eternity-DO YOUR HOMEWORK. Rosey and Jamal, when booked right (ie. NOT in their WWE run), were like 350lb versions of the Hardy Boyz. Maybe not your classic idea of great workers, but one of the most entertaining duos to appear on the scene since the Tables Trio of 2000. BUT, thanks to incredibly poor booking and WWE's stoopid punishment policy, the Island Boyz never got off the ground. Now, if they wanted to put Rosey in a different costume, downplay the comedy, and just have him be "Hurrican'es massive overpowering sidekick", then they could really work as a team. but for now, I'll take what they're offering. As a tag team, the two could go far. | HMD
Andouille Level: 96
Posts: 588/2131 EXP: 8773638 For next: 215181
Since: 8.6.02 From: Canada
Since last post: 2532 days Last activity: 2532 days
| #12 Posted on 14.9.03 1216.13 Reposted on: 14.9.10 1218.29 | Originally posted by fuelinjected And I agree with Hogan's My Dad
I cannot believe you wrote that. Sure, we agreed on that point, but there was no need to point it out.
There goes our big money feud...
(edited by Hogan's My Dad on 14.9.03 1016) | fuelinjected
Banger Level: 106
Posts: 1526/2679 EXP: 12269259 For next: 402725
Since: 12.10.02 From: Canada
Since last post: 6697 days Last activity: 6697 days
| #13 Posted on 14.9.03 1231.05 Reposted on: 14.9.10 1231.29 | Originally posted by oldschoolhero "And just because Rosey can do Elix Skipper's move, doesn't make him a good worker."
Once again0and every time from now until eternity-DO YOUR HOMEWORK. Rosey and Jamal, when booked right (ie. NOT in their WWE run), were like 350lb versions of the Hardy Boyz. Maybe not your classic idea of great workers, but one of the most entertaining duos to appear on the scene since the Tables Trio of 2000. BUT, thanks to incredibly poor booking and WWE's stoopid punishment policy, the Island Boyz never got off the ground. Now, if they wanted to put Rosey in a different costume, downplay the comedy, and just have him be "Hurrican'es massive overpowering sidekick", then they could really work as a team. but for now, I'll take what they're offering. As a tag team, the two could go far.
I saw them in Heartland and they weren't ready, not even close to being called up. But they were big so they got called up. All they did were a bunch of KEWL MOVEZZZZ but they had no flow, no pacing, no psychology to their matches. Even in WWE, all their tag matches degenerated into clusterfucks and mistimed spots. I found them dull, dreary, and boring because fat guys doing kewl movezzz with no psychology or anything got boring with The Headshrinkers. | asteroidboy
Andouille Level: 98
Posts: 1540/2241 EXP: 9542871 For next: 111516
Since: 22.1.02 From: Texas
Since last post: 4864 days Last activity: 430 days
| #14 Posted on 15.9.03 1408.17 Reposted on: 15.9.10 1409.01 | The problem with comedy is that it's hard. It requires natural timing and intelligence. That's why most of the comedy bits aren't funny. If you have someone who's naturally funny, like Rock, Angle, Austin or Foley, then it works. But otherwise, you're gonna end up with a "There's Something about Mary" rip-off skit.
Luckilly for them, wrestling fans don't have very developed senses of humor, so a guy from North Carolina with braces who should realistically be living out scenes from "Deliverance" when he's not working at the Jiffy Lube can get over by spouting a run-on sentence. Even though it's not funny.
I think comedy in wrestling is like having a famous dad - it will get you in the door, but the rest is up to you. Some people have started with a decent comedy gimmick and gotten over eventually, others haven't. DDP is a good example of the latter, but I think he could've done more, if not for the injury. | ALL ORIGINAL POSTS IN THIS THREAD ARE NOW AVAILABLE |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | |