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The 7 - Pro Wrestling - Some predictions regarding Chris Jericho Register and log in to post!
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TheBucsFan
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#1 Posted on 18.2.02 1202.01
Reposted on: 18.2.09 1206.11
Now, I am carrying this quote over from another thread:




    Sure, he's the champ -- but he's in the same boat that Angle was during his first world title run. He gets wins, but they're seen as flukes by the masses. Jericho is far too talented to be getting Honky Tonk Man heat, but right now he is...




First of all, "Honky Tonk Man heat" is only a bad thing if you perceive it that way. It still requires talent. Second, I bet the LAST place Jericho wants to be a year from now is the position Angle is in right now.



Now, every summer, the WWF develops a wrestler who is a link between the midcard and the main event. This wrestler can hold his side of a main event if he's with a credible opponent, but at the same time doesn't seem out of place fighting guys lower on the card. In 1998 (and throughout his career really) it was Mick Foley and (and throughout his career really) it was Kane. In 1999 it was The Rock. In 2000 it was really just up to Kane, maybe the Big Show. In 2001 in was Kurt Angle. And in 2002 it will be Chris Jericho.



I am sure when Jericho winds up feuding with someone like Edge or Van Dam, there will be whining, crying, moaning, bitching and complaining all around the internet, but Jericho is simply following the formula:



Step 1: Give wrestler (usually heel) title run where he looks weak or vunerable.



Step 2: Have wrestler lose title, usually at or close to Wrestlemania



Step 3: Have wrestler, now former world champion, feud with not-quite-but-almost-main-event foe to elevate the latter.



Angle lost, then feuded with Benoit. Mick Foley didn't win the title, but had a heated feud over the title with Austin, then went into a rivalry with Triple H. The Rock lost the title, then spent the summer finally getting Triple H over as a main event player. Now Jericho will go into a feud )most likely) with a upper-midcard face to get that guy over. I'd say Edge and RVD are the best candidates. Just be prepared for it when it happens.

Edit: Austin also did it in 1997. Usually these wrestlers will go on to much greater success than there initial title runs indicated.

(edited by TheBucsFan on 18.2.02 1304)
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#2 Posted on 18.2.02 1229.59
Reposted on: 18.2.09 1231.20
Never mind the title, from a wrestling standpoint I would much rather see Jericho vs. Edge or Van Dam!
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#3 Posted on 18.2.02 1239.39
Reposted on: 18.2.09 1255.57
I dont think this may apply to this year simply because there so many main eventers now. I said this earlier, Jericho has to remain close to the title race after he drops the titles or he will be forgotten. He at least needs Stephanie at his side.
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#4 Posted on 18.2.02 1259.19
Reposted on: 18.2.09 1259.38
Quoting selectively:

>Second, I bet the LAST place Jericho wants to be a year
>from now is the position Angle is in right now.

followed by:

>Jericho is simply following the formula:
>Step 1: Give wrestler (usually heel) title run where he
> looks weak or vulnerable.
>Step 2: Have wrestler lose title, usually at or close to
> Wrestlemania
>Step 3: Have wrestler, now former world champion, feud
> with not-quite-but-almost-main-event foe to elevate the > latter.
>
> ...in 2001, it was Kurt Angle.

I'd say that Jericho's aimed for the exact position Angle's in now, if he's following the same formula. In fact, he may be lucky to get that far.

What you describe makes sense and matches what we've seen for years, but it's a process for generating almost-theres, not champions. A midcarder is elevated, is perceived as a fluke champion, loses to a "name" guy, then elevates another midcarder to go through the same shuffle. It's a necessary thing to elevate MORE midcarders into the mix. But where does the fluke-champ go from there? How does an elevated midcarder break into the upper echelon for good?

By not being portrayed as an utter fluke once he gets there, that's how. That doesn't mean he has to dominate all competition or hang onto the belt for years, but it does help when the newcomer is portrayed as a credible threat to the old guard. By comparison, Austin barely broke a sweat last night before the cavalcade of run-ins began.

Angle's first title run was pretty close to Jericho's current one. He's since suffered from a series of face-heel turns and character shifts, but he has had a face period where he went toe-to-toe with Austin as an equal. Will Jericho reach that level of fan credibility?
TheBucsFan
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#5 Posted on 18.2.02 1313.23
Reposted on: 18.2.09 1318.43
I was being sarcastic regard Angle's current position. I'm sure Jericho wouldn't mind being in line to challenge for the titleat Wrestlemania next year. Besides, it looksl ike Jericho will have one major advantage that Angle didn't: He will go into Wrestlemania as THE Champion.

After you go through the cycle, what puts you over the top to stay is usually a face run. In a year or two, they can look back and say "look, Jericho main evented a Wrestlemania and is a former World Champion." That will give him the credibility he needs, and a face run would provide some clean wins on top.

Even Triple H is not immune to this cycle. After his year long dominance of the main event scene, he spent the summer/fall elevating Angle and fighting Benoit. You have to be close to the top (or an "almost-there") before you actually break through.
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#6 Posted on 19.2.02 0127.55
Reposted on: 19.2.09 0129.04
Jericho's run as a champ is alot more impressive than Angle's first run.
Sure, he comes across as 'weak' and 'cheating to win' but IMO it makes him look more real than Kurt back then. Also his amazing promos help him getting that 'I hate him! He is so cocky! Please Kill him!Oh no, he weaseled out again' heat As stated, Kurt lost at nwo last year as predicted. Jericho has been holding on and coming out on top for 3 ppvs now beating the two biggest names over and over again..
Kurt didn't do this. And his feud with H was more about Steph vs Trish than anything else.

Ofcourse there is the risk of Chris going down a few steps once he drops the belt, but he can still feed of being an ex champ and being total asshole..help put some other guys over by either feuding or teaming up.
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#7 Posted on 19.2.02 0209.38
Reposted on: 19.2.09 0212.43
Jericho has done a lot better with the titles than I ever thought he would. Nobody has improved more than Jericho in the last half year. His blown spots are WAY down. His mic work is better. His matches are more inspired. Who cares if he cheats to win. Ric Flair cheated for 25 years and people still think he's a GOD.
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#8 Posted on 19.2.02 0242.33
Reposted on: 19.2.09 0249.50
I agree, BigDaddy. As a matter of fact, I think his mic work has not only gone up but has gone way up, which is saying something since he was incredible on the mic to begin with.

No one right now plays the cocky, arrogant heel like Chris Jericho. It's ironic, though, that Jericho and The Rock possess equal amounts of arrogance and ego, yet one is a face while the other is a heel.

Anyhoo. You know how the WWF has, in the past, had a rematch (or partial rematch) of the WrestleMania main event at Backlash? I think that's what may happen here. Jericho surprises everyone including me by retaining at WrestleMania, but loses at Backlash.

Then again, with Triple H's backstage clout, it's unlikely.

But to those who say Jericho isn't even a legitimate main-eventer, not to mention a legitimate champion, let me say this. Last year, Jericho's feud with The Rock was thought of by many as the feud of the year. He got a win over The Rock at a pay-per-view to become WCW Champion. Main-evented at Survivor Series. Defeated The Rock and Steve Ausitn back-to-back at Vengeance to become the Undisputed Champion. Retained, against all odds, against The Rock at the Royal Rumble. Retained yet again against Steve Austin at no Way out.

Can you think of anyone else who has beaten The Rock and Steve Austin twice each in three consecutive PPVs? I can't. Yeah, he cheats, but as BigDaddy pointed out, so did Ric Flair for a goodly portion of his career. My philosophy about wrestling is: If your opponent won't job cleanly, hit him over the head with something and get the win anyway. LOL!!!
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#9 Posted on 19.2.02 0531.18
Reposted on: 19.2.09 0535.46
Jericho retaining at WM is cool from a smark point of view. I mean winning WM main event in your home country will keep him on the Legend's list for real. But remember WM2000, a heel winning is a real downer. Not like last year when Austin turn swerved everyone. HHH has too much of a Cinderella story going in now. I want to see what the WWF will do to make Jericho get booed in Canada.
Well Its The Big O
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#10 Posted on 20.2.02 2215.14
Reposted on: 20.2.09 2229.05
Jericho's is the only instance I can recall of a guy just being totally rejuvenated by just being turned. It didn't work for The Dudleys. Maybe it was the angle, being pushed with The Rock was perfect.

The problem I got is that even though Jericho's the most entertaining part of the show, they've booked him really to be weak as hell. He doesn't even do his own cheating to win, nor does he ever get a clean win against anyone, except Maven and maybe one other guy. Nor is he even being booked as the top heel really. He's on the undercard even with the title.

It did take some balls to put him in the title match at Wrestlemania but with that match looking like being the third from the top match it didn't take that much balls.

I have no doubt myself that the WWF could make Jericho the absolute top star if they really wanted to. It's funny how incompetent they look when they're supposedly trying to push a Jericho or a Benoit, like they're pretending to be stupid or something and yet when it comes for a Rock or a HHH or an Angle or an Edge they've just taken guys that people didn't care about and shoved them down our throats, put them over guys above them again and again and tweeked and retweeked them so that they do eventually get over.

They know how to make a star, they just don't want Jericho to be one.
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#11 Posted on 20.2.02 2224.41
Reposted on: 20.2.09 2229.06

    I have no doubt myself that the WWF could make Jericho the absolute top star if they really wanted to. It's funny how incompetent they look when they're supposedly trying to push a Jericho or a Benoit, like they're pretending to be stupid or something and yet when it comes for a Rock or a HHH or an Angle or an Edge they've just taken guys that people didn't care about and shoved them down our throats, put them over guys above them again and again and tweeked and retweeked them so that they do eventually get over.

    They know how to make a star, they just don't want Jericho to be one.


He is a star. They want him to be an even bigger one, and I am getting more and more pissed off at fuckers like you who try to convince yourselves otherwise.

Rock did not become the top guy in the WWF overnight. He had a run very similar to Jericho's first as a heel, main evented Wrestlemania, then came back over a year later to be built up as the top face.

Triple H's first months as a top heel were similar to Jericho's, not to mention the three years he spent on the undercard before that (did Jericho spend three years feuding over Euro- and IC titles?). Steve Austin was a cheating bastard heel for all of 1996 and the first part of 1997, then spent the rest of 1997 as a midcard face before winning the World title in 1998 at WM. Even then, his initial run on top wasn't as strong as what was to come (see his domination of the world title in 2001). Kurt Angle's character is very very similar to Jericho's. You are simply too bitter and impatient to wait for Jericho's inevitable next run as the top guy, which will probably result in him being a top guy for the rest of his career.
Well Its The Big O
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#12 Posted on 20.2.02 2230.54
Reposted on: 20.2.09 2238.24
Well I'm in awe of your positivity. I don't think there's any evidence to suggest that they want to do anything with Jericho in terms of being the absolute top guy. Wouldn't they have made him look stronger with the two titles, I mean could they make a Unified World Champion look any weaker?

I just don't see it happening. Look at the examples you mentioned. Rock was pushed right off the bat from coming in. Sure he wasn't pushed to the World Title stage, but despite sucking and nobody liking him he was pushed. Ditto for HHH excepting the Curtain Call punishment. Now sure history proved them right about those two, but remember it was Vince Russo who had to convince Vince MacMahon to make Austin the top star, HHH was supposed to get that push.
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#13 Posted on 20.2.02 2236.45
Reposted on: 20.2.09 2238.25

    Originally posted by Well Its The Big O
    Well I'm in awe of your positivity. I don't think there's any evidence to suggest that they want to do anything with Jericho in terms of being the absolute top guy. Wouldn't they have made him look stronger with the two titles, I mean could they make a Unified World Champion look any weaker?

    I just don't see it happening. Look at the examples you mentioned. Rock was pushed right off the bat from coming in. Sure he wasn't pushed to the World Title stage, but despite sucking and nobody liking him he was pushed. Ditto for HHH excepting the Curtain Call punishment. Now sure history proved them right about those two, but remember it was Vince Russo who had to convince Vince MacMahon to make Austin the top star, HHH was supposed to get that push.



Chris Jericho got a pretty strong push upon arriving in the Fed as well. And as for evidence to suggest they will push him to the top...did you read my first post? The WWF has a history of giving guys brief "testing the water" pushes, only to come back to them later after they proved themselves the first time around.

As for Chris Jericho looking "weak", so what? IT'S HIS JOB. I've seen some people say "He is too good to be getting Honky Tonk heat." Too good? Why is "Honky "tonk het" a bad thing? He his playing the role the WWF WANTS HIM TO PLAY perfectly. Later on, they will simply redefine his character like they do with anyone who they decide they want to push differently.
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#14 Posted on 20.2.02 2236.45
Reposted on: 20.2.09 2238.25

    Originally posted by Well Its The Big O
    Well I'm in awe of your positivity. I don't think there's any evidence to suggest that they want to do anything with Jericho in terms of being the absolute top guy. Wouldn't they have made him look stronger with the two titles, I mean could they make a Unified World Champion look any weaker?

    I just don't see it happening. Look at the examples you mentioned. Rock was pushed right off the bat from coming in. Sure he wasn't pushed to the World Title stage, but despite sucking and nobody liking him he was pushed. Ditto for HHH excepting the Curtain Call punishment. Now sure history proved them right about those two, but remember it was Vince Russo who had to convince Vince MacMahon to make Austin the top star, HHH was supposed to get that push.



Chris Jericho got a pretty strong push upon arriving in the Fed as well. And as for evidence to suggest they will push him to the top...did you read my first post? The WWF has a history of giving guys brief "testing the water" pushes, only to come back to them later after they proved themselves the first time around.

As for Chris Jericho looking "weak", so what? IT'S HIS JOB. I've seen some people say "He is too good to be getting Honky Tonk heat." Too good? Why is "Honky "tonk het" a bad thing? He his playing the role the WWF WANTS HIM TO PLAY perfectly. Later on, they will simply redefine his character like they do with anyone who they decide they want to push differently.
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#15 Posted on 20.2.02 2323.11
Reposted on: 20.2.09 2329.09
Certainly NOW isn't the best time to be complaining about Jericho. I think he has gone above and beyond most people's expectations, even the WWF's. Believe me if the WWF thought Jericho wasn't doing his job as the Unified Champion they would have already pulled the plug.

(edited by BigDaddyLoco on 21.2.02 0023)
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#16 Posted on 21.2.02 0808.27
Reposted on: 21.2.09 0819.10
Two points:
1) Jericho as a heel, is the opposite of HHH as a heel. Everyone complained that HHH beat everybody all the time and looked strong. Now Jericho looks a little weak and has to cheat to win. So stop complaining.

2) My problem is they're giving Jericho the Big Show treatment. Although Jericho has taken what they gave him and taken it much farther then Show could, he is still not the focus of the show. Of course go against HHH can't hurt him and will only make him stronger.
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#17 Posted on 21.2.02 1000.23
Reposted on: 21.2.09 1012.28

    Originally posted by Scar
    Of course go against HHH can't hurt him and will only make him stronger.

That would be a pleasant change from his last dealings with HHH, where he got elevated to the top for 15 minutes and then sent back down for a couple of months until HHH elevated him long enough to beat him in a match designed to show he was tough and able to be "the last man standing." after which Jericho went back to the midcard for another year and a half. I worry for our champion here. I think we all feel it's a fait accompli that HHH walks out of WM, or at worst the Raw the day after WM with the WWF title, at which point he goes into a mega feud with the NWO. Considering Rock and Austin are set to also feud with the NWO for a while, the next level faces available for Jericho post WM are Edge, RVD, Kane, or Big Show. While some of these would produce awesome matches, I can't really see how this could be called anything but a big push down for him after this reign.
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#18 Posted on 21.2.02 1051.29
Reposted on: 21.2.09 1053.22
That's a good call on the Big Show treatment.

Jericho's run is a lot more like Show's first title run than than Angle's or Rock's.

Sure Jericho has held the title and gotten some big wins at PPVs. But I think you have to look at how he's being promoted and presented in the weekly shows and in general.

Jericho isn't given the mic time that Rock, Austin, Flair, HHH, Steph, Hogan, and Vince have been given lately. Angle always got a decent amount of mic time during his first heel champ run. And the Rock got a ton.

Jericho's angles are like, the 3rd or 4th most put over. J.R. and King aren't talking about Jericho during the Albert vs. DDP matches. They're talking about the NWO. They're talking about HHH and Steph. They're talking about Flair and Vince. They aren't talking about Jericho. Angle and Rock were always part of a big angle when they were champ. Maybe not the focus of it (like with the corporation), or maybe even sometimes they were the secondary angle, but their angle was big enough it got hyped by the announcers a lot.

On the weekly shows, Jericho's been curtain jerking. When was the last time he main-evented? Especially in a singles match? Angle and Rock main evented on Raw at least every other time.

Check out the other random promotional stuff. Jericho isn't in any commercials. He isn't in any promo videos. You don't see local ads for "come see The Rock, Stone Cold, and Chris Jericho at the Dubuque civic center." He has four shirts and two videos on Shopzone. The Hardy's have 4 shirts, 2 hats, 3 videos, a bandana, and two necklaces. The Undertaker, who's about the same level heel as Jericho, has 6 shirts, 2 hats, a pair of sunglasses, a wallet, a key chain, a toy, a pendant, 3 videos, and a window-cling set. Hell, even freaking Kane has 2 shirts, a mask, ans a pendant. I don't know what the Rock and Angle had for merchandising, but I'm sure that the Rock at least had a lot more stuff out there.

Jericho is a midcarder with a gimmick. His gimmick is that he is the "Undispyooted Champion." He doesn't even have an angle or a good feud right now (although I hope they start a good one with HHH). And once he looses his gimmick, my guess is he's going the Big Show route, not the Rock route.

Moe

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#19 Posted on 21.2.02 1451.21
Reposted on: 21.2.09 1459.12

    Jericho's run is a lot more like Show's first title run than than Angle's or Rock's.


Actually, Rock's first run as the top heel was overshadowed by the Austin/McMahon saga, often pushing him down the card.

Angle's first run as champ was hurt by a lack of direction or clear exciting feuds (Angle was champ after the HHH/Angle/Steph story peaked, and by the time they fought for the title at Rumble 2001, it was a boring heel/heel matchup) until the one with the Rock, which he lost.
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#20 Posted on 21.2.02 1522.22
Reposted on: 21.2.09 1529.05
I don't think Moegates or Scar are giving Jericho enough. Credit. Jericho isn't getting the Big Show push. Even if Jericho doesn't get to main event every show, he will come out for the main event and make JR and King look like fools on commentary. When he was feuding with the Rock, he always looked the best in that feud, and had to carry it most of the time because Rock is off trying to save a crappy, shitty movie that isn't going ot make any money. Jericho shined the most in all of his matches with the top guys recently, especially the Rock. When Rock was gone, Jericho would get some great interviews in with Flair, which were really cool.

Jericho has main evented weekly shows on numerous occassions, even after he won the world title. To name a few singles matches, he's main evented RAW against Stone Cold, RVD, and the Rock. He recently tagged with Kurt Angle on the main event on Smackdown to face HHH, and with the Undertaker on RAW against Stone Cold and Undertaker. I think Jericho is doing a much better job than Big Show and Angle at being the world champ. I'm just happy Jericho is finally getting a run at the top, especially one that lasted this long. I wasn't expecting him to be a world champion over a day!
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