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The 7 - Baseball - Albert Pujols, YOUR MVP! Register and log in to post!
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StaggerLee
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#1 Posted on 11.8.03 1756.55
Reposted on: 11.8.10 1757.30
Just thought I would say that he is the best hitter in the game right now. If He doesnt win the MVP, its a shame!
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BigVitoMark
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#2 Posted on 11.8.03 1843.47
Reposted on: 11.8.10 1844.05
A lot of people are saying Barry Bonds over Pujols, but out of sheer contempt for Bonds I'll agree with you. Bonds is in the discussion because of the Giants' success as a team and because of name recognition. If the Cardinals can get into the playoffs Pujols would have a much better shot, not to mention the fact that he has cooled off quite a bit since the all star break.
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#3 Posted on 11.8.03 1912.22
Reposted on: 11.8.10 1915.34
Pujols is hitting .383 with 5 homers and 19 RBI over the last month, which includes the three games before the All-Star break.



EDIT: Make that 6 homers and 20 RBI.


(edited by Whitebacon on 11.8.03 1714)
BigVitoMark
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#4 Posted on 11.8.03 1931.21
Reposted on: 11.8.10 1935.21
Pujols has as a great month by anyone's standards...except the standard he set at the start of the year. 6 HR and 20 RBI over the last month are below his 2003 monthly averages in both categories, and he's not hitting .390+ anymore either. I'm not saying his numbers aren't incredible, nor am I rushing to cut him from my fantasy team, but he has cooled off since the AS break. You'll notice you don't hear everyone singing his praises to near the extent they were five weeks ago.
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#5 Posted on 11.8.03 1951.15
Reposted on: 11.8.10 1953.07
I think a lot of that has to do with Bonds being Bonds. He's hitting like .417 over the last month with four or five dingers and a couple less RBI. Also, the Cardinals pitching has faltered, and they're not quite the lock for the playoffs that they were 4-6 weeks ago.
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#6 Posted on 11.8.03 2122.35
Reposted on: 11.8.10 2123.15
I think Bonds gets shortchanged because he's a surly sort.


Pujols: .368/.440/.677 (avg/obp/slg), 31 HR, 101 RBI

Bonds: .335/.519/.735, 35 HR, 74 RBI


So Bonds is outperforming Pujols in OPS by 1.254 to 1.117. The only place Pujols is decidely better than Bonds is in RBI, a statistic that has very little to do with individual performance. If there are not runners on, or the pitcher will not pitch to you, you will have less opportunity. So, instead of straight RBI, how about official at-bats per RBI. Pujols is slightly ahead 4.3 to 4.2 RBI per at-bat.

Now, don't get me wrong. I am not saying that Pujols is not the MVP. But let's not just throw Bonds out of the mix. Barry Bonds will go down as perhaps the greatest hitter in our lifetimes.

pieman - still looking for Pujols' birth certificate.



Eddie Famous
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#7 Posted on 11.8.03 2146.44
Reposted on: 11.8.10 2148.05

    Originally posted by pieman
    The only place Pujols is decidely better than Bonds is in RBI, a statistic that has very little to do with individual performance.


O, pieman, you're not one of the brainwashed who would rate Mark Grace a better hitter than Raffy Palmeiro, I hope.

I would EVERY DAY take a .265, 100-RBI guy over a .300, 80-RBI guy in the same role...

That said, Pujols is not only the MVP this season, he should've been MVP his rookie year. Coming in, playing four positions and single-handedly dragging a McGwire-less team into the playoffs as the coolest rookie ever. I talked to Bob Forsch, he says he's NEVER seen anyone like Pujols. The man is HOF............
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#8 Posted on 12.8.03 0252.26
Reposted on: 12.8.10 0254.37
Bonds has what, three or four MVPs? Give one to AlPu.
Grimis
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#9 Posted on 12.8.03 0620.30
Reposted on: 12.8.10 0624.24
Can we all remember that MVP is for the Most Valuable Player, NOT the player of the year.

The Giants are 12 games ahead in the west. The Cardinals are fighting for a playoff spot, one they wouldn't be close to if it weren't for Pujols.

Pujols might win this in a runaway...
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#10 Posted on 12.8.03 0713.29
Reposted on: 12.8.10 0723.28
No, no, Eddie, I think Mark Grace was one of the most overrated players ever. Palmeiro is a significantly better player than Grace ever was. My point is that RBI and batting average are statistics of the past, stats for the casual fan. Meaty statistics like OBP, Slugging percentage, runs created, etc. really show what a player is worth.

Pujols is a tremendous player. I am not saying he doesn't deserve he MVP, but it's not such a closed case. Bonds is so great and he does it so consistently, he loses points for being great ALL the time!

And Grimis - how are the Giants 12 up? Ummm, Bonds maybe? So, you're only valuable if you get your team in contention, but you're not as valuable if you get your team a big lead? How does that make sense?

I am not a biggest fan of Bonds, but some people just like to whine about him no matter what he does on the field.
skorpio17
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#11 Posted on 12.8.03 0831.23
Reposted on: 12.8.10 0833.45
It is close, but I'm going with Pujols. In the runs created category, he has 102 RBIs to Bonds 74- and 102 Runs scored to Bonds 85. If they still had GWRBI, I'd say Pujols would have more of those too. I'd also take a look at their batting average with Runners in Scoring Position. Bonds is at .344, but Pujols has an incredible .410.

The bottom line is that I'd rather take a guy whose going to show up to play every day - Pujols. Compared to a guy whose going to miss 20 games with an assortment of injuries - Bonds.
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#12 Posted on 12.8.03 0837.06
Reposted on: 12.8.10 0837.16

    Originally posted by pieman
    And Grimis - how are the Giants 12 up? Ummm, Bonds maybe? So, you're only valuable if you get your team in contention, but you're not as valuable if you get your team a big lead? How does that make sense?

No, but the Giants would still be in contention with or without Bonds. If Pujols has a Mark Grace year, the Cards are screwed, especially when you consider that Edmonds, Drew, and Vina have been hurt and/or playing below their levels for huge chunks of the season, and that's not counting the injuries on the Cardinals pitching staff. Without a consistent Pujols this team is done. The Giants have had Cruz and Grissom having good years in addition to Bonds. Is bonds the catalyst for a lot of this? Yes. But the Giants are better off without Bonds than the Cardinals without Pujols in 2003.
JayJayDean
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#13 Posted on 12.8.03 0937.04
Reposted on: 12.8.10 0948.23
I gotta go with Bonds for this simple reason: if you gave Bonds the same number of at bats as Pujols has, he'd blow Albert away in HR and RBI. These are Bonds' projected season numbers, per ESPN.com: .335, 48 HR, 102 RBI, 429 AB

Pujols has 32 HR in 441 AB. I'm not trying to focus TOO much on the home run category, but Albert has the benefit of being pitched to far more than Bonds. I think Bonds is like A-Rod in that they could likely win the MVP in any given year unless there are mitigating circumstances. A-Rod keeps losing MVPs because he is on terrible teams. Bonds' teams are consistently good.

I would have to say, though, if Pujols got his average up over, say, .380, and Bonds slipped to a .320-ish average I might be inclined to vote for Pujols. (That would double his current advantage in batting average.) It's pretty tough to look at Bonds' .517 OBP and not say MVP.
StaggerLee
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#14 Posted on 12.8.03 1444.45
Reposted on: 12.8.10 1444.58
But, doesnt OBP include walks? People walk Bonds in an effort not to give up those HRs to that short right field in PacBell. Granted, Bonds has the best eye-hand coordination in the game, and some of the quickest hands, but I would still take Pujols over him any day.
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#15 Posted on 12.8.03 1505.46
Reposted on: 12.8.10 1505.58
Okay, I'm sure there's all sorts of interesting happenings going on in that National League thingy, but the question of mild import to fans like myself is who in the hell do you put up for AL MVP? Thus far nobody is making their claim to the thing. The best years are being had for teams that aren't in contention to do anything. The top contenders are all getting very balanced efforts with no one mega-star leading the way. Hell, I'll go out on a limb and say that if his team wins the division, and he puts together another 6-7 weeks like he's done already that my vote goes to Esteban Loaiza, who single-handedly has kept the White Sox in contention for the AL Central this season.
Joseph Ryder
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#16 Posted on 12.8.03 1622.37
Reposted on: 12.8.10 1629.02

    Originally posted by skorpio17
    It is close, but I'm going with Pujols. In the runs created category, he has 102 RBIs to Bonds 74- and 102 Runs scored to Bonds 85.
Way better hitters hitting behind Pujols, driving him in. That's not Bonds' fault. And Bonds' "pitches to hit" count plummets when there are men on, which is why he hits so many solo shots.
    Originally posted by skorpio17
    If they still had GWRBI, I'd say Pujols would have more of those too. I'd also take a look at their batting average with Runners in Scoring Position. Bonds is at .344, but Pujols has an incredible .410.
Again, Bonds does not get many opportunities to win games because pitchers refuse to let him (110 BBs versus 50 for Pujols). He cannot help that. And many times when there is a runner in scoring position, first base is open, which is basically an intentional walk waiting to happen for Bonds. Or it's at least an AB with much fewer pitches to hit. I think an OPS discrepency of nearly .150 is too strong a case FOR Bonds.
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#17 Posted on 12.8.03 2057.39
Reposted on: 12.8.10 2057.46
No no no, Bonds is definitely the MVP. I don't understand the argument that Pujols is more important to his team because they are worse. If anything the fact that the Giants are doing better makes Bonds the better candidate. Why are the Giants so much better? Ok, they do have better pitching I admit that. But Bonds doesn't just produce numbers but he makes the other players better. Aurillia, Grissom, Kent, Lofton, Santiago, Cruz have all been better when they played alongside Bonds. Pujols on the other hand doesn't make Rolen, Drew, Tino, Renteria, and Edmonds better.


Bonds would have WAY more homeruns and RBI if he had as many at-bats. And the OPS and OBP have both been mentioned and then there's the Slugging too. And let's not forget that old man Bonds still steals more bases than the 23 year old Pujols too.
Eddie Famous
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#18 Posted on 12.8.03 2135.46
Reposted on: 12.8.10 2136.56

    Originally posted by Quezzy
    Pujols on the other hand doesn't make Rolen, Drew, Tino, Renteria, and Edmonds better.


Not individually, no. He makes them better as a team by being their workhorse while playing anywhere LaRussa puts him.
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#19 Posted on 12.8.03 2150.32
Reposted on: 12.8.10 2151.12


    No, no, Eddie, I think Mark Grace was one of the most overrated players ever.


I think that Grace is one of the most overrated underrated players of all time. He wasn't exactly a known superstar when he was playing, but in retrospective discussions about underrated players, people will say 'Hey, Mark Grace led the 1990's in hits! Wow, he was really good after all!' and then make ridiculous claims that Grace is better than Palmeiro or that he invented the question mark.



    Okay, I'm sure there's all sorts of interesting happenings going on in that National League thingy, but the question of mild import to fans like myself is who in the hell do you put up for AL MVP? Thus far nobody is making their claim to the thing. The best years are being had for teams that aren't in contention to do anything. The top contenders are all getting very balanced efforts with no one mega-star leading the way. Hell, I'll go out on a limb and say that if his team wins the division, and he puts together another 6-7 weeks like he's done already that my vote goes to Esteban Loaiza, who single-handedly has kept the White Sox in contention for the AL Central this season.


A month ago I would've said Carlos Delgado, but both he and the Jays have gone into a downward spiral as of late. If Esteban Loaiza wins the motherfucking MVP award, I might just quit watching baseball. Nobody on the Yankees or Athletics is tearing it up, but what about Ichiro or Nomar?

Manager of the Year is clearly Tony Pena, btw.

skorpio17
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#20 Posted on 13.8.03 0851.15
Reposted on: 13.8.10 0859.01

    Originally posted by spf2119
    Okay, I'm sure there's all sorts of interesting happenings going on in that National League thingy, but the question of mild import to fans like myself is who in the hell do you put up for AL MVP? Thus far nobody is making their claim to the thing. The best years are being had for teams that aren't in contention to do anything. The top contenders are all getting very balanced efforts with no one mega-star leading the way. Hell, I'll go out on a limb and say that if his team wins the division, and he puts together another 6-7 weeks like he's done already that my vote goes to Esteban Loaiza, who single-handedly has kept the White Sox in contention for the AL Central this season.


To follow the NL reasoning behind picking Bonds, lets look at the AL Leader in Homeruns, Walks, and OPS who is also on a first place team. Jason Giambi . Delgado is the only guy with a better OPS and he is on a bad team. The only other good choices would be Boone (the good one on Seattle) or Nomar iff the Sox make the postseason.
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