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The 7 - Current Events & Politics - US to develop Hypersonic Weapons
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Grimis
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#1 Posted on 1.7.03 1424.28
Reposted on: 1.7.10 1425.22
Sweet!

U.S. Eyes Global Strike Capability Within 2 Hours
Tue July 1, 2003 03:11 PM ET

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The Pentagon is seeking to develop a drone in the next two decades that could strike any spot on Earth from the continental United States within two hours.
The so-called Hypersonic Cruise Vehicle, which would be designed to hit targets about 9,000 miles away, should be available by about 2025. Hypersonic means traveling at more than five times the speed of sound.

The goal is to demonstrate a system that could carry out prompt "global reach missions" without using overseas bases, the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, the Pentagon's cradle of new technologies, said in a notice released quietly two weeks ago.

"DARPA and the Air Force share a vision of a new transformational capability that would provide a means of delivering a substantial payload from the continental United States to anywhere on Earth in less than two hours," the notice said.

"This capability would free the U.S. military from reliance on forward basing to enable it to react promptly and decisively to destabilizing or threatening actions by hostile countries and terrorist organizations," said DARPA, which is jointly sponsoring the project with the U.S. Air Force.

Some of the system's building blocks should make it possible to launch a "prompt global strike" from the continental United States as early as about 2010 using rocket boosters, the draft notice said.

The program envisions a reusable, remotely piloted craft that could take off from a regular runway with 12,000 pounds (5,443 kg) of bombs and missiles or a new, rocket-assisted means of delivering such munitions, a draft overview said.

The project is called FALCON, short for Force Application and Launch from CONUS, or the 48 states, excluding Alaska and Hawaii, that make up the continental United States.

Jan Walker, a DARPA spokeswoman, described the effort as "technology development and demonstration," as opposed to a plan to build, buy or deploy such a capability. Any such acquisition plans ultimately hinge on the U.S. Congress's power of the purse.

The draft notice cited U.S. military operations in Bosnia, Afghanistan and Iraq. "While advancements in target identification and precision strike have been abundantly demonstrated, deficiencies in engaging and defeating time-critical and high-value, hard and deeply buried targets have also been revealed," it said.

The overview said the United States may find it increasingly difficult to use overseas bases to react quickly to perceived threats.
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DrOp
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#2 Posted on 1.7.03 1531.22
Reposted on: 1.7.10 1536.03
And we spend money on this while millions are unemployed (a number that grows by the day) and schools fail while the education budget is cut.

AMAZING.
PalpatineW
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#3 Posted on 1.7.03 1708.26
Reposted on: 1.7.10 1710.06

    Originally posted by DrOp
    And we spend money on this while millions are unemployed (a number that grows by the day) and schools fail while the education budget is cut.

    AMAZING.



Oh boo hoo. It's the government's job to provide for defense. How the hell is it going to cure unemployment? Give all these millions of people federal jobs? And it's already been proven that money doesn't make kids smarter, cf. the DC school district.
spf
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#4 Posted on 1.7.03 1718.01
Reposted on: 1.7.10 1720.08
The fact that the government has to provide for defense shouldn't necessarily mean they have carte blanche to do anything they want under that guise, or to spend anything they want. To some of us defense means safeguarding our borders. To others defense means being able to take over and hold any country in the world within a matter of days. One demands a $100 bln maybe budget, the other a $500 bln at least budget. But neither of one of them is an indication that the government is abdicating its constitutional duties.

And Palp, I thought those tax cuts the government did were going to cure unemployment...that's what Dubya told me and everyone else. So I guess they can cure unemployment if they want to, since he'd never lie to me
JayJayDean
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#5 Posted on 1.7.03 1740.51
Reposted on: 1.7.10 1744.05
    Originally posted by Grimis
    The project is called FALCON, short for Force Application and Launch from CONUS, or the 48 states, excluding Alaska and Hawaii, that make up the continental United States.



Wow, if they are going to spend untold billions (trillions?) of dollars on yet another defense system that will never see the light of day, they might as well call the project SMYWAN, short for Suck My White Anus.


We already have the capability to make a parking lot out of any spot in the world we choose and don't use it. What makes the gov't think that the USA having the ability to shoot a missile from Nebraska to Baghdad is going to change anything?

(edited by JayJayDean on 1.7.03 1541)
DrOp
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#6 Posted on 1.7.03 1833.06
Reposted on: 1.7.10 1833.39
PalpatineW--if you remeber the reprecussions of the last big round of deficit spending, you might feel differently about throwing millions of dollars at stuff just so 10 generals can have new, space-age toys. I wasn't personally under the impression that we are defensiless of somehow incapable of defending ourselves now.

Money isn't the solution to all of education's problems, but throwing more at teachers that, say 35K, for a mostly thankless job wouldn't be a bad start.

It's best to be frugal in tough economic times.
Guru Zim
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#7 Posted on 1.7.03 1856.26
Reposted on: 1.7.10 1859.00
Doesn't this allow us to abdicate "strategic" positions? Isn't the point of this program to keep the US Military in the US instead of guarding a missile silo in the middle of the Pacific Ocean?

I kinda like the idea that they can keep the missiles far away from little tiny countries that we may accidentally lose control of . I wouldn't want any US missiles in the Phillipines for example - but don't we have lots of stuff around the world in countries like Germany where we might not always be able to keep stuff?

I would think that we would at least get the isolationists behind this. Spending more on technology saves us in terms of having to deploy manpower to the 4 corners of the world in order to maintain strike capabilities.
Enojado Viento
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#8 Posted on 1.7.03 1920.38
Reposted on: 1.7.10 1921.57

    Originally posted by JayJayDean
      Originally posted by Grimis
      The project is called FALCON, short for Force Application and Launch from CONUS, or the 48 states, excluding Alaska and Hawaii, that make up the continental United States.



    Wow, if they are going to spend untold billions (trillions?) of dollars on yet another defense system that will never see the light of day, they might as well call the project SMYWAN, short for Suck My White Anus.





I thought that acronym was the name for our foreign policy.

I'm kinda disappointed "Hypersonic" doesn't mean ray guns that break every window in a city block or liquefy matter, but I suppose technology still has a long ways to go until we catch up with the Fantastic Four.
Nate The Snake
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#9 Posted on 1.7.03 1956.40
Reposted on: 1.7.10 1958.03
So... how many billions of dollars are we blowing on this RC weapon of terror? And if this actually makes it to the field, which country'll be the "lucky" recipient of the first sneak attack?

(edited by Nate The Snake on 1.7.03 2000)
Big Bad
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#10 Posted on 1.7.03 2033.05
Reposted on: 1.7.10 2033.26
Shouldn't Tony Blair be leading a coalition against this weapon of mass destruction?
godking
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#11 Posted on 1.7.03 2037.44
Reposted on: 1.7.10 2041.48
Good heavens, I can think of nothing quite so brilliant as researching a weapon that gives unlimited first-strike capability. It's foreign policy genius.

Also, I bet all those terrorists are real scared now!
PalpatineW
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#12 Posted on 1.7.03 2212.00
Reposted on: 1.7.10 2219.51

    Originally posted by godking
    Good heavens, I can think of nothing quite so brilliant as researching a weapon that gives unlimited first-strike capability. It's foreign policy genius.

    Also, I bet all those terrorists are real scared now!



I assume you meant that as sarcasm, but it comes off as completely logical. (Which, really, means it must be sarcasm).


    Originally Posted by Nate The Snake
    So... how many billions of dollars are we blowing on this RC weapon of terror? And if this actually makes it to the field, which country'll be the "lucky" recipient of the first sneak attack?


I bet it will be some completely innocent country that we just want to dominate, because we're filthy imperialists. We'll likely sneak attack those peace loving North Koreans, or democratic, honorable Iran, or any of a host of undeserving countries, because that's just what we do.
Dahak
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#13 Posted on 1.7.03 2233.02
Reposted on: 1.7.10 2240.34
Well, I have two opinions on this.
1. I see the logic. It will scare China, Russia, and India. Whether the damn thing ever works is another thing. But on the other hand it will scare China, Russia, and India. Possibly causing another arms race which could very easily be bad.
2. Anything that helps improve the Earth's space research is good. This is basicly a Sracmjet which is a very important part of improving space travel. The population isn't going to drop. Resources aren't going to come back. Something has to be done or the whole world will be FUBAR in about 70 years.
godking
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#14 Posted on 1.7.03 2312.10
Reposted on: 1.7.10 2315.42
I assume you meant that as sarcasm, but it comes off as completely logical. (Which, really, means it must be sarcasm).

It's quite simple - if you can kill anybody before they can do anything, you're ten times as likely to be viewed as "the enemy". Moreover, you're just going to create another arms race. China will have these things inside of a decade, and I don't feel horribly warm and cuddly at the idea of China being able to nuke anybody at will before they can even consider retaliation. And speaking as a dirty foreigner, I feel only marginally more warm and cuddly at the idea of the United States being able to do it. Geopolitics for the last fifty years has been based on parity at the nuclear level, and it's not the sort of thing you want to shake up deeply.

And if you seriously think that terrorists fighting an assymetrical war are going to be afraid of faster versions of nukes you couldn't use against them in the first place - well.
Pool-Boy
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#15 Posted on 1.7.03 2323.21
Reposted on: 1.7.10 2324.45
Funny how those opposed to such things seem to forget exactly how many jobs are created (which unemployed people fill) by such programs.

I personally, would rather have the jobs go towards a purpose, rather than meaningless beurocratic desk jobs.

And hell yes we need to upgrade our military with "space age toys." We have the strongest military now, but ten years from now? It is not like other nations are not upgrading themselves.

This system is going to reduce our reliance on overseas bases, keeping more of our soldiers at home. They are unmanned, reducing the risk to our soldiers. Plus they will be much more effective against terrorist groups. Sounds like all plusses to me.

As far as education goes- let the states worry about that. It is their job to do so. "Providing for the common defense" is the number one duty of the federal government. I see nothing in the constitution that dictates throwing money at schools. Besides that, lack of funds is not what is killing our schools. But that is another thread.

(edited by Pool-Boy on 1.7.03 2204)
FurryHippie
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#16 Posted on 1.7.03 2326.13
Reposted on: 1.7.10 2327.31
    Originally posted by PalpatineW

      Originally posted by DrOp
      And we spend money on this while millions are unemployed (a number that grows by the day) and schools fail while the education budget is cut.

      AMAZING.



    Oh boo hoo. It's the government's job to provide for defense. How the hell is it going to cure unemployment? Give all these millions of people federal jobs? And it's already been proven that money doesn't make kids smarter, cf. the DC school district.



I'm sick of the philosophy that "we need defense, cause it's kill or be killed". Want the sad truth, my friend? This philosophy gets mankind to one place - extinction.

Not to sound too "hippie" like...but when the FUCK are we going to start looking at ways to BRING EVERYBODY TOGETHER instead of "fighting off the other guys"?

I realize I simplify life too much, many times. But just seeing country after country arming itself up for the future makes me want to throw up. Here's something for all you 'protect the homeland' people - instead of trying to win the rat race, try to unify the people. Then, maybe for once, the world will start to respect us. It SICKENS me to see a country that believes "you chan't change anything, so load up with bombs". I guess I listen to too much Bob Marley....but I'll be damned if I'm gonna join the "kill them before they kill us" mentality. And for those subscribing to it....I offer a little something called talking. I won't say anymore than that. TALKING is an amazing thing that none of these 60 year old suit-wearing, out of touch with reality fucks that run the country know ANYTHING about.

Just protect the homeland...nevermind setting up the world for a better future. This is the same mentality gangs use - "protect yourself, there's always someone comin up behind you". They're going the same place America is going - nowhere but paranoia and misunderstanding.

I understand points about fighting terrorism. These people are incapable of understanding, we have to kill them. But do you understand what they are "terrorizing" us for? Not because of blind hate, which the media will tell you (They're the BAD guys, we're the GOOD guys). The media is desperate to paint the sides as different as they can, when in reality, there is only misunderstanding. I'm gonna catch a lot of flack for claiming there isn't a "bad" guy or "good" guy...but I give no excuse for what happened on September 11th or any other time in history. It was flat out disgusting and wrong....but I don't turn around and say everything AMERICA has done since then was the right thing to do. Murder followed by "righteous" murder just doesn't sit well with me. Say what you want, but murder of any kind will never sit well with me. Fuck religion, fuck churches and beliefs, look at this from a HUMAN perspective for once. If a human believes that the only way to right the wrong of murder is to murder another......then there is no hope. Whether you like to admit it or not, the only way to save everybody is to stop the cycle. It's gotta stop somewhere, and somebody is gonna have to swallow some pride. Instead of murdering for revenge, somebody is going to have to take a step back, think about the value of life, and try to do something to help our future. Who is noble enough to do it? I don't see anybody yet.

Going back to my point, America is not being attacked because "terrorists" are jealous of our freedom (copyright - Media of the United States) but rather because of America's flakey and unjustified supports in the Middle East. Did you know that while we claim to be the "good guys" fighting "evil", we have supported worse leaders than Saddam Hussein (who is certainly terrible in his own right)? Did you know that most of the hijackers on Sept. 11th are from Saudia Arabian groups, but we didn't do anything about that since they are our allies? And did you know that Saudia Arabia perpetrates just as many crimes against humanity as these hated "bad guys"? Well it's true. You know why we don't do anything? Plain and simple - because the US doesn't care about peace. It's about looking good in the public eye. And it's about America being #1. I repeat, there is NO CONCERN for world peace. There is only concern for protecting America. And while I love the idea of a safe America, it doesn't come damn close at all to the great thought of a safe world.

They won't tell us about Saudia Arabia, because they're our allies. So support your country. But don't lie to me, or yourselves, and say that we're fighting the "good fight". There's plenty more evil in our own alliances that we do nothing about. And a man who sits by and lets evil go is just as guilty as the evil itself.

To add one point that I know I'm gonna be called on (and I know there will be many I haven't touched on), there will be those of you who think "Anti-American bastard...just leave if you don't like it". To touch on that subject, all I have to say is that I'm not Anti-American for the sake of being Anti-American. I'm speaking against our actions because I want EVERYBODY to stop doing things for the purpose of killing the "bad guys". I fully admit the world has done wrong against us, and I'm not speaking FOR them at all. I would speak the same words to any other country. They have to realize the same thing I wish America would realize - killing those who have killed us gets us nowhere but in a cycle of killing. Think about it...say we kill the "terrorists" - what the HELL do you THINK they're gonna do? Say to themselves "Well, they got us"? NO. They're gonna say "Those FUCKS! We have to get them back". Get it? Murder followed by murder isn't the final word. Murder followed by murder leads to murder for revenge on those murdered for murdering the original victims. It's real simple.

You know what my vision is for the future? Not to win the fucking war on terrorism. You win a war, you win the rat race. And the problem with the rat race? Even if you win, you're still a goddamn murdering rat. You know what I would like to see? People understanding each other. I would feel a lot better knowing we worked through it than to say "we killed the bad guys, YAY!". And to those who say "The world can't understand. We have to fight those who refuse to understand" - well for you I weep. Because a man who is hopeless for the future survival of the people is a man who has quit.

Murder makes me sick. And you can fuck yourselves if you think war isn't murder. War is the result of people not understanding each other, and not having human decency to work it out without TAKING THE OTHER'S LIFE. I think a lot of you find it really hard to grasp the concept of taking a life.

Edit: I'm not trying to single those out who contributed to this thread (I fully realize the points I touch aren't fully related to your post), it's just seeing this thread just blew me up. I had to get all of this off my chest. This thread was the straw that broke the proverbial camel's back.

(edited by FurryHippie on 1.7.03 2207)
JayJayDean
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#17 Posted on 2.7.03 0030.21
Reposted on: 2.7.10 0036.42

    Originally posted by Pool-Boy
    Funny how those opposed to such things seem to forget exactly how many jobs are created (which unemployed people fill) by such programs


Hmmm. That sounds good.

Hey Jethro! I know you just got laid off from the 7-11, but there's some good news! Thems is buildin' some new-fangled missile system and they need good unemployed folks to make 'em!

That explains our current .600 batting average with space shuttles, I guess.
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#18 Posted on 2.7.03 0103.04
Reposted on: 2.7.10 0103.28
Well said, Furry Hippie.

I do think that all of the fuss over this weapon is perhaps a bit misplaced, since let's be real.....is there any chance this thing will actually work properly? Hell no. The 'hypersonic weaponry' will go in the file along side the Star Wars project.
Nate The Snake
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#19 Posted on 2.7.03 0609.41
Reposted on: 2.7.10 0609.52

    Originally posted by Pool-Boy
    Funny how those opposed to such things seem to forget exactly how many jobs are created (which unemployed people fill) by such programs.

    ...

    This system is going to reduce our reliance on overseas bases, keeping more of our soldiers at home.



At home, and likely unemployed. Either that, or we have a grotesquely swollen homebound army doing absolutely nothing but wasting taxpayer money. Sounds like quite the winning strategy, doesn't it?
Grimis
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#20 Posted on 2.7.03 0612.43
Reposted on: 2.7.10 0612.56

    Originally posted by FurryHippie
    Not to sound too "hippie" like...but when the FUCK are we going to start looking at ways to BRING EVERYBODY TOGETHER instead of "fighting off the other guys"?

    I realize I simplify life too much, many times. But just seeing country after country arming itself up for the future makes me want to throw up.


Guess what? It's still kill or be killed. Know why? There's this little thing called "human nature" that requires people to protect themselves. Nothing you or I can do about it. Now...


    Originally posted by FurryHippie
    Here's something for all you 'protect the homeland' people - instead of trying to win the rat race, try to unify the people. Then, maybe for once, the world will start to respect us.

We can't even unify our OWN people. Jesus, we've spent forty years trying to get Americans to look past racial and cultural differences. Now, we're damn near as racially polarized as it was before. How can we be expected to unigy a world that already hates us?


    Originally posted by FurryHippie
    I offer a little something called talking. I won't say anymore than that. TALKING is an amazing thing that none of these 60 year old suit-wearing, out of touch with reality fucks that run the country know ANYTHING about.

Yeah, because terrorists will sit at the fucking table...


    Originally posted by FurryHippie
    Fuck religion, fuck churches and beliefs, look at this from a HUMAN perspective for once. If a human believes that the only way to right the wrong of murder is to murder another......then there is no hope. Whether you like to admit it or not, the only way to save everybody is to stop the cycle.

Let me get this straight, we should be attacked(please remember 3,000 civilians died in those attacks), and then do NOTHING in return? You do realize that by NOT retaliating we are giving carte blanche for terrorists to blow MORE shit up because there is no disincentive not to.


    Originally posted by FurryHippie
    There is only concern for protecting America. And while I love the idea of a safe America, it doesn't come damn close at all to the great thought of a safe world.

You can't have one without the other...


    Originally posted by FurryHippie
    Murder makes me sick. And you can fuck yourselves if you think war isn't murder. War is the result of people not understanding each other, and not having human decency to work it out without TAKING THE OTHER'S LIFE. I think a lot of you find it really hard to grasp the concept of taking a life.

Yeah! Americans are murderers! Fuck ourselves for beating Germany. We should've UNDERSTOOD why Germany was murdering all of the Jews and embraced it's diversity!

With all due respect Furry, your view of world affairs is not based in the world of reality. We cannot understand the bad guys and sing "kumbaya". Sometimes, you have to fight. It's not something anybody with a soul likes to do. I agree, war is a bad thing. But you have to take preventative measures for your own national security, and to ensure that you have the proper weaponry to fight such a war. If you don't, that's when you're setting yourself up for national extinction.


    Originally posted by Dahak
    1. I see the logic. It will scare China, Russia, and India. Whether the damn thing ever works is another thing. But on the other hand it will scare China, Russia, and India. Possibly causing another arms race which could very easily be bad.

Uh, the arms race wasn't nearly as bad as everybody thinks it was. It was just a conviencens for Kennedy to keep research going.
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