The W
Views: 97757069
Main | FAQ | Search: Y! / G | Color chart | Log in for more!
28.7.07 1734
The 7 - Baseball - Fantasy Baseball Column #1: The Master Speaks
This thread has 1 referral leading to it
Register and log in to post!
(817 newer) Next thread | Previous thread
User
Post (18 total)
skorpio17
Morcilla
Level: 52

Posts: 354/618
EXP: 1019107
For next: 64741

Since: 11.7.02
From: New Jersey

Since last post: 2322 days
Last activity: 2322 days
#1 Posted on 15.5.03 0909.27
Reposted on: 15.5.10 0911.09

Unsung Hero: The Middle Reliever



Back in 1996 the Yankees had two top relief pitchers. John Wetteland and Mariano Rivera. Rivera was the set-up man and Wetteland was the closer. The Yankees won the World Series that year against a very good Atlanta Braves team due in large part to these two players. During each of the Yankees 4 wins, Rivera would pitch a scoreless 7th and 8th inning. Then Wetteland would come in a pitch a scoreless 9th. During that series, Wetteland had a record 4 saves and won the MVP award. A big picture of Wetteland made the front page and a tiny story about Rivera made the back page. So who was really more valuable during that series, the guy who gets all the glory or the guy who makes it possible. Arenít two scoreless innings better than one? Or is it only the 9th inning that counts?

Iím for giving credit where credit is due. In baseball there is too much emphasis on the guy who gets the final out. Which guy has the more crucial spot? The guy coming in the 7th inning of a tie game or the guy coming in the 9th to protect a 3 run lead? Middle relievers are constantly overlooked. While the mediocre closer can get $6 million a year, a top middle reliever like Jeff Nelson can only get $2 million.

The disparity between middle relievers and starters is even worse. Mediocre starting pitchers like Mike Hampton and Chan Ho Park get hundred million dollar contracts. For starting pitchers, the expectations are set so low they are a joke. Now they have contracts with incentives for pitching 200 innings in a season. The assumption is that if he can pitch 200 innings, than he is doing a good job. This is like giving a bonus to a guy for getting 600 plate appearances. Or giving a bonus to me just for showing up to my work everyday. (Even if Iím surfing the internet instead of working.) They are only rewarding the appearance of effort, not performance.

This train of thought goes back to little league pitching. Back then all they ask for from a pitcher is to throw strikes. Most little league pitchers canít even throw the ball over the plate much less get anybody out. So for kids these low standards of ďjust throw strikesĒ is perfectly acceptable. But for major league pitchers we should expect more. We should expect them not to give up too many runs.

These days there is an official statistic called a Quality Start. The pitcher must pitch at least six innings and give up 3 runs or less to have a quality start. A pitcher giving up 3 Runs in 6 innings gives him a 4.50 ERA. That sounds like a Low-Quality start to me. They are defining quality down. The stupidity of this stat is that another pitcher who gives up 2 runs in 5 innings doesnít get a quality start while the guy giving up 3 runs does. The guy giving up 2 runs has a lower ERA of 3.60, yet they say the other guy is better. The only difference between the two is that the 6 inning guy gave up one additional run in one extra inning. If Iím a manager, Iím not willing to give up one run an inning, Iíd rather put in a quality middle reliever and actually win the game.

This is why Iím not impressed by pitchers with complete games. It is another meaningless statistic. It only means that your team has a shitty bullpen. If you had any kind of a bullpen, you wouldnít let your starter throw nine innings. When a hitter gets more looks at a pitcher, he adjusts and will hit him harder in the later innings. Unless you have an indefatigable starter with a rubber arm, it doesnít pay to stick with him all game.

Worse than that, a complete game is a negative statistic. Studies have shown that if your pitcher throws over 110 pitches, he will get shelled during his next start. Not only that, but he increases his risk for injury by blowing out his arm. You are sacrificing future games in exchange for a perceived advantage (not an actual one) in the present game.

Let me give you some examples as to how starters are overrated compared to middle relievers.

Who is better?

Wade Miller or JC Romero and LaTroy Hawkins

Here is a comparison between a top starting pitcher for the Astros and two Twin middle relievers. Letís look at this at the time of the fantasy baseball draft, just before this season started. At first glance this seems to be no contest. In most leagues Miller is worth $22 and Romero and Hawkins are worth $4 each. In the average draft, Miller is the 67th pick, Romero is 227th, and Hawkins is 240th. The conventional wisdom is that Miller as a starter will get you more Wins and more Strikeouts.

In truth they both will give you equal Wins and K's, while the Twin killers will also give you much better ERA and WHIP stats. The twin relievers can even throw in a few saves. Miller has no significant advantage at any statistical category. Look at the numbers for last year:

Miller: 164 Innings, 15 Wins, 144 Ks, 3.28 ERA, 1.29 WHIP
Twins: 161 Innings, 15 Wins, 139 Ks, 2.01 ERA, 1.09 WHIP

The only advantage you get is that when you have one pitcher doing the job of two, it frees up a roster spot. Only that roster spot isn't that big a deal, it is your 24th spot. You only NEED 18 roster spots on your team. The extra 6 are a bonus. I've seen the guys who people use for their last spot. A 3rd string catcher who will never get playing time (Michael Barrett), their mediocre pitcher stashed on the DL (Orlando Hernandez), a minor leaguer who might get called up in July (Jose Reyes). You may as well use all your roster spots and use them all effectively.


Who is better? (Part 2)

Pedro Martinez or Johan Santana

On the surface this looks like a no-brainer. Pedro is unquestionably the best pitcher in the American League and Santana is the unknown middle reliever. In our draft, Martinez went #6 and Santana went #211. Martinez is worth $38 and Santana is worth $11. To get an accurate comparison you have to look deeper. First letís look at the intangibles.

Pedro Martinez is a headcase. He complains all the time. At the start of the season, he was griping because his huge $100 million contract wasnít extended yet. The Red Sox legally had until November, 2003 to exercise this option, yet Pedro wanted it done right away. So the club caved and extended the option for one additional year at more money than Pedro could likely get on the open market. As a result, Pedro has less motivation to perform this year. He is guaranteed big money next year regardless of this yearís performance. The next year he can again hold out for more money and the team will likely give in. Even with the contract controversy he has had a pretty good season so far. But, is he really better than Santana? Who is truly the better pitcher this year? Letís look at the numbers so far this season.

Martinez: 54 Innings, 3 Wins, 54 Ks, 3.15 ERA, 1.03 WHIP
Santana: 27 Innings, 2 Wins, 32 Ks, 1.30 ERA, 1.16 WHIP

Martinez has a the edge in WHIP, and gives you twice the innings, but that is it. Santana has a big edge in ERA. Regarding strikeouts (Pedroís specialty) Santana is the better pitcher. Santana gets 10.62 K's per 9 Innings pitched while Pedro gets 9. Santana also gets you more wins averaging .67 Wins per 9 IP, Pedro averages .50 Wins per 9 IP.

When their two teams played each other on 5/9/3, I wasn't at all surprised at the result. The Red Sox are the better team, but ďSmoothĒ Santana blew away Martinez. Santana was given the spot start when Rick Reed got injured. All he did was beat the ďbestĒ.


Bottom Line: Starters and Closers are both overvalued in fantasy baseball.

The only Pitcher I had pre-ranked as a top 20 (first round) pick was Randy Johnson. He ended up on the DL, which shows that even he wouldnít have been worth it. Out of my top 10 draft picks, I only took one starting pitcher when I took David Wells with my 7th round pick at #131. My best pick was when I got Brett Myers with pick #430. I even got Zach Day off waivers after he had a few good starts. My strategy is to get young guys with a big upside late in the draft. I especially wouldnít be suckered into taking guys coming off a career year like Hallady, Clement, or Lowe. I also got middle relievers like Santana to fill out my innings late in the draft. The league has spots for 7 pitchers per day. 2 Starters, 2 relievers, and 3 others. I can even sneak Santana into the SP spot and use one starter and 6 relievers every game. This is why Iím leading my league in ERA, 2nd in WHIP, 3rd in Wins, and 3rd in Kís even though I intentionally neglected pitching all during the draft.
Promote this thread!
Joseph Ryder
Head cheese
Level: 40

Posts: 35/332
EXP: 406436
For next: 34877

Since: 19.3.02
From: Seattle, WA

Since last post: 1112 days
Last activity: 645 days
#2 Posted on 21.5.03 2354.35
Reposted on: 21.5.10 2354.46
You had me until you started talking about the disparity between starters and middle relievers.

Most middle relievers are not starters simply because they're not good enough. And you can't compare Wade Miller to two different middle relievers because of many reasons, tops on my list the fact that JC Romero and Latroy Hawkins are never expected to toss 6-7-8 innings at a time. Romero and Hawkins come in for one inning, on average every other game (at most). That's roughly 3 IP per week. So they can go balls out and the opposing hitters only see them once, if that. There's a reason only ONE Twin reliever has a worse ERA than ANY of the Twins starters. And it's not because they're better pitchers. I doubt either Hawkins or Romero would post those numbers if they were asked to go 6-7 IP per start. If they could, THEY'D BE STARTING RIGHT NOW.

That's also why relievers, on average, have better strikeout ratios than starters. Because they can let it all go and not worry about their next start. Entering 2001, John Smoltz's first season as a closer, he had a career K/9 ratio of 7.82. Since then, his K/9 ratio is all of the sudden 9.74. If that example is too recent for you, we can look at Dennis Eckersly, who in his first 12 seasons was a starter with a 5.87 K/9 ratio. Then he became a reliever for his final 12 seasons (probably not the peak of his physical ability), and sported an 8.82 K/9 ratio. Point being, you can't compare a starter's ratios with a relievers. It's not fair.

The idea of a "quality start" is to get starting pitchers to go deep into the game. Why? Because if your bullpen is not rested, they tend to GIVE UP LOTS OF RUNS. Why do they give up runs, even though they're not pitching nearly as much as starters? Because they're not as good. Which is why starters don't go 2-3-4 IP before being pulled...beacuse the relievers would then be pitching too much. If you're idea of a successful team is to have 9 pitchers throw one inning apiece every game...you're not very bright.

Are you serious in thinking complete games only occur because a team has a shitty bullpen? It has nothing to do with the skills of a starting pitcher? I don't think Mark Mulder has four CG's because the A's have a shitty bullpen. Mark Mulder has four CG's because Mark Mulder is a very good pitcher. If you're going to refer to studies about effects after a 110-pitch game, direct me to them. If I'm an Oakland A's fan (which I'm not), I'd rather have Mulder's 9th inning of a game (if he's on) than any of their reliever's 1st inning. Even if it's a 1-0 game. Why? Because he's a better pitcher.

If your fantasy league has any merit, the "cost" of each player was mainly based on how many points that player scored the season before. If Pedro was worth $38 and Santana was worth $11, I would imagine that Pedro scored (roughly) 3.5 times more points than Santana. If I'm wrong, then that's an issue you should have with your fantasy league, not Pedro and the amount of money he makes. If Santana was really worth the same amount as Pedro (as far as your league goes), then I presume that would be reflected in said league. If not, then your league sucks.

To conclude, I agree with your idea that middle relievers have been screwed out of prestige that instead goes to closers. But I really don't agree with anything else. I assume much of your argument and stance is based on the fact that the more starters pitch, the less points you get in your little fantasy league, since your team is apprently mostly relievers. If that's even remotely true, you're biased...and bitter.

(edited by Joseph Ryder on 21.5.03 2155)
skorpio17
Morcilla
Level: 52

Posts: 355/618
EXP: 1019107
For next: 64741

Since: 11.7.02
From: New Jersey

Since last post: 2322 days
Last activity: 2322 days
#3 Posted on 22.5.03 1208.56
Reposted on: 22.5.10 1209.36
Thank you for responding to my column.

There are some middle relievers who are definitely good enough to start like Santana and Dotel. Iíd say that the Twins relievers are much better pitchers than their starters. That is what got them to the playoffs last year.

Look at the following hypothetical situation. The Twins have traded Kietly and Sears to the Astros for Miller. Now they are in game 7 of the playoffs against the Aís. You would rather start Miller and have him pitch 6 innings giving up 3 runs. While I would rather start Hawkins for 3 innings and have Romero pitch the next 3 giving up 1 run each.

There are many excuses you could give as to why relievers have a better numbers than starters. ďWhen a hitter gets more looks at a pitcher, he adjusts and will hit him harder in the later innings.Ē Relievers can also enter in favorable situations to face a string of lefties. Starters get more fatigued. We both agree on the reasons why relievers have better numbers.

Many of the starters are left in anyway to appease their egos. In fantasy baseball, Iím not interested in stroking egos or in making excuses, I just want the guys with the best numbers. If my relievers can get me better numbers than my starters, Iíll go exclusively with them. I already have enough innings that I can afford to go with my bullpen.

High Pitch counts are very troublesome. It is the main reason Torborg was fired from Florida after he killed their starters. It is also why Dusty Baker will be on the hot seat after he blows out Kerry Woodís arm. I canít find the exact link to the statistics that I read, but here is a good warning of high pitch count fallout from the Sporting News.

http://fantasy.sportingnews.com/baseball/voices/david_srinivasan/20030426.html

Even though Mulder has 4 Complete Games, you have to look closer at those complete games. He kept his pitch counts low almost every game. His pitch counts were 96, 96, 105, 113. Only in his most recent game did he just exceed 110 pitches and we wonít see that result until his next start.

Iím not bitter about anything in my Fantasy Baseball League. Iím in first place and cruising. Iím just saying itís a shame that sucky starters like Jeremy Bonderman have a spot on a fantasy team while a guy like Osuna is available on waivers. It is all because of the false idea that starters are always more valuable than middle relievers.

Big Bad
Scrapple
Level: 145

Posts: 1265/6713
EXP: 37257886
For next: 346286

Since: 4.1.02
From: Dorchester, Ontario

Since last post: 3 days
Last activity: 1 day
#4 Posted on 22.5.03 1349.02
Reposted on: 22.5.10 1355.03
I'm only interested in middle relievers in leagues where holds count as a stat.
Whitebacon
Boudin blanc
Level: 94

Posts: 456/2466
EXP: 8287487
For next: 69201

Since: 12.1.02
From: Fresno, CA

Since last post: 73 days
Last activity: 16 hours
AIM:  
ICQ:  
#5 Posted on 22.5.03 1506.35
Reposted on: 22.5.10 1506.53
    Originally posted by skorpio17
    Iím just saying itís a shame that sucky starters like Jeremy Bonderman have a spot on a fantasy team





Why in the hell would anyone choose to pick up ANY Detroit Tigers pitcher? And can I join this league. If you want to blow wins and K's, while gaining a minimum effect in ERA and WHIP, be my guest...but only contending in two or three of the pitching categories means you'd better have one hellacious offense.

(edited by Whitebacon on 22.5.03 1308)
TheCow
Landjager
Level: 62

Posts: 482/948
EXP: 1977292
For next: 7405

Since: 3.1.02
From: Knoxville, TN

Since last post: 2363 days
Last activity: 2362 days
AIM:  
Y!:
#6 Posted on 22.5.03 1639.04
Reposted on: 22.5.10 1640.05
Many of the starters are left in anyway to appease their egos.

Okay, you've completely lost me here. Say that a pitcher - the starter - has pitched himself into a jam. At no point could we factor in the ideas that:
1 - The pitcher's young. If the team isn't good (or the game's not close ... say his team's up by 10 or something like that), couldn't the manager possibly think "Hey, let's let the kid see if he can work through this. Who knows, it might help him down the road." After all, if a pitcher doesn't gain experience pitching deep into games, what's he going to do when he gets fatigued?
2 - The pitcher's a veteran. Chances are that he's had to pitch his way out of a jam more than once, so the manager could conceivably let him stay in to work his way out. But why don't they call on the pen, you say? Could be because it's too early in the game. Could be because even when tired, he still pitches better than most of the relievers they have.

But I suppose I'm looking at the game here from a realistic perspective, not from a fantasy perspective. There's a simple reason why starters garner more value than middle relievers: innings pitched. If you have 6 middle relievers and I have 6 starters, assuming I get 7 quality starts a week (one of the pitchers goes twice in a week) and nothing more, that's 42 innings. That means that each of your relievers has to go 1 inning a day to keep up with me. Now, you know as well as I do that even if a reliever can do that (we'll say all the teams go 7 games that week), there's still a good chance he's going to get tired. Remember that his arm's not used to being worked full-steam 7 days in a row for one, and you have to factor in all the warm-up pitches too, etc. Anyway, point there is that the relievers are going to give up runs... maybe not at the 4.50 ERA rate, but they are.

Now we add in believability. Out of the 7 starts I get, 2 will hurt, 3 will be fine, and 2 will be pretty good. The 2 pretty good ones (8 IP, 1 ER, 7 K, 5 H/BB or so) would counter-balance the 2 bad ones (5 IP, 4 ER, 2 K, 8 H/BB, for example) slightly in my favor, from the "quality start" perspective. (Say the fine starts are 6 IP, 3 ER, 5 K, 6 H/BB.) (For the record, I'm ignoring WHIP in this, as I'm going to call it even between both.) Now, that gives me 19 ER for the week with 44 IP. That's a 3.89 ERA. Not spectacular, but not bad. Solid.

Now, of your 6 middle relievers, they'll pitch 4-5 innings a week - say 27 for generosity. If your guys give up less than 12 ER, you'll have a better ERA than me. If your middies are good, then that's definately possible... but remember, out of your 27 innings, you're going to have 4 or 5 that hurt, minimum. If those innings give up 2 runs apiece (say it's 4), that leaves you 4 ER over 23 innings. I think we'd all love middies if they had a 1.56 ERA.

I'll concede the fact you're probably going to get more wins than me - you've got more chances, after all. I'll probably get 3 or 4 (knowing my luck, I might be lucky to even get 2), and you'll land 5 or 6 of those. That's fine with me.

[Saves are a wash, they don't matter in this case.]

That leaves strikeouts. I've got 33. For you, that's a K/IP ratio or 1.22 - or 11 K per 9 IP. Not bad, entirely possible for some middies (Dotel immediately pops to mind). Can it be done? Yeah, it probably can... but it would require a bit of luck to do it.

That leaves your all-middie team behind in ERA, behind in K, ahead in wins, and close to tied in WHIP. Think they're better now?

Anyway, the only point I was trying to make with this is you can get a balance between starters and middies, but it's a delicate one at best. A team of strong middies is helped by a couple of good starters; even if the starters don't post insane numbers, they'll at least give you innings to buffer against any blowups the middies suffer.

Of course, if you really believe that middle relievers are better than starters, I'll trade you Farnsworth for Mussina. They do have comparable WHIP/ERA numbers....
skorpio17
Morcilla
Level: 52

Posts: 356/618
EXP: 1019107
For next: 64741

Since: 11.7.02
From: New Jersey

Since last post: 2322 days
Last activity: 2322 days
#7 Posted on 23.5.03 0932.42
Reposted on: 23.5.10 0932.46
Whitebacon:
Actually Nate ďthe GreatĒ Cornejo isnít bad for Detroit. But Starters are way overvalued in our league. You could join the league if you wanted to buy out El Nasty and move the team south.

The Cow:
The ego thing is why Pettitte was left in to get killed yesterday. Iíd have pulled him after giving up 5 runs in the first two innings. Any middle reliever wouldíve been pulled after that many runs, I donít see why starters should be excused.

You are a man who understands the value of the middle reliever. You are using all your pitching spots correctly. You even have a spot on his team for Luis Ayala who is kicking ass for the Expos getting 4 Wins in just 22 IP with 11 Ks, 3.32 ERA, 0.92 WHIP. You know I wonít trade for middle relievers when I can pick all mine up off waivers for free.

As King of the Waiver wire, I just picked up Cal Eldred, Cardnal Closer and Jermaine ďLive and LetĒ Dye. Booya.

Big Bad is missing my entire point. Here is another comparison.

Who is better? (Part 3)

Brendon Donnely/Francisco ďK-RodĒ Rodriguez vs. Ramon Ortiz

I took K-Rod because of his great post-season last year. This year he is getting hit hard with a 5.32 ERA, but because of the power of the rally monkey he still has as many wins as any of their starters. Here I take two Angels middle men against one of their ďqualityĒ starters. The ESPN draft ranks Ortiz ahead of my two guys, but the numbers tell a different tale.

Middle: 49 Innings, 4 Wins, 46 Ks, 2.76 ERA, 1.11 WHIP, 1 Save
Ortiz: 58 Innings, 4 Wins, 33 Ks, 5.32 ERA, 1.49 WHIP, 0 Saves

My guys have as many wins in less innings and kill Ortiz in every other category. If I had Ortiz on my team, Iíd dump him and pick up one of the Angels two middle men. In fact Iíd put my two up against ANY Angels starter.

Middle: 49 Innings, 4 Wins, 46 Ks, 2.76 ERA, 1.11 WHIP, 1 Save

Sele 12 Innings, 1 Win, 9 Ks, 7.53 ERA, 1.67 WHIP, 0 Saves
Appier: 32.2 Innings, 2 Wins, 18 Ks, 6.34 ERA, 1.74 WHIP, 0 Saves
Washburn: 64 Innings, 4 Wins, 25 Ks, 3.52 ERA, 1.14 WHIP, 0 Saves
Callaway 26 Innings, 1 Win, 15 Ks, 5.13 ERA, 1.67 WHIP, 0 Saves
Lackey: 54.2 Innings, 2 Wins, 40 Ks, 6.42 ERA, 1.74 WHIP, 0 Saves

Just look at the numbers, your starters get you no statistical advantage at any category other than innings, and even that they donít get you much. I rest my case.


Whitebacon
Boudin blanc
Level: 94

Posts: 457/2466
EXP: 8287487
For next: 69201

Since: 12.1.02
From: Fresno, CA

Since last post: 73 days
Last activity: 16 hours
AIM:  
ICQ:  
#8 Posted on 23.5.03 1126.53
Reposted on: 23.5.10 1127.14
I can see using a ton of middle relievers if you have gotten stuck with shitty starters (as all you've shown for examples) or starters off to bad starts. But if you draft decently, you shouldn't have this problem. I know *I* like having Morris, Schmidt, and Vazquez as my top three starters in my NL Only league. They certainly haven't hurt me one bit. Also, if you use mostly middlemen, that 5 run 2 inning performance will hurt you more than it will if you use more starters, and only one or two middlemen in your lineup. More innings pitched will dampen the impact of one or two bad outings.
Guru Zim
SQL Dejection
Administrator
Level: 138

Posts: 1559/5994
EXP: 31521993
For next: 141067

Since: 9.12.01
From: Bay City, OR

Since last post: 1 day
Last activity: 3 hours
AIM:  
#9 Posted on 23.5.03 1231.33
Reposted on: 23.5.10 1236.18
I'm pretty sure that only 8 of the 20 people in our league are actually actively trying. I'm not going to name which 8 though.

I say this because I was able to move from 3rd to last to 6th place in a little under 2 weeks.

I'd also point to J.D. Drew being cut after he came back from injury and started doing well.

Oh, and your precious Romero... you grabbed him after I dumped him. He was on the waiver wire when I got him too.

Hey, considering I was just trying to field the entire Padres team for a while, I'm pretty happy with where I am. I still can't believe that no one has more HR than I do, considering I'm generally fielding 5 Padres positional players.

PS> If you were such a genious at this, you wouldn't have assed yourself out on the Delgado for Boone trade. Yes, Delgado is better - but you screwed yourself at the 2b position. I'm hoping that comes back to bite you in the ass. That trade was more to hurt you than to help me. You are overloaded at 1b now, and you have nothing at 2b... and there is nothing out there to grab. Baerga? Your best shot it to wait for me to cut Loretta later this week...
TheCow
Landjager
Level: 62

Posts: 488/948
EXP: 1977292
For next: 7405

Since: 3.1.02
From: Knoxville, TN

Since last post: 2363 days
Last activity: 2362 days
AIM:  
Y!:
#10 Posted on 23.5.03 1354.23
Reposted on: 23.5.10 1354.25
Sheesh, go figure. I cut Drew, and THEN he starts performing. Of course, if I had kept him, he would've gotten injured within 2 weeks.... you're welcome, Guru.

Skorpio, you're STILL comparing apples and oranges - great middle relivers to middle-of-the-road pitching. Pettite's outing yesterday falls under the second exemption, btw. If all starters were pulled after getting shelled in the first inning, I know that Tom Glavine (among others) wouldn't be nearly as well-known as a good pitcher today, as he's had a history of rough first innings. It's something that comes with the territory. However, the Yanks do have basically 7 starters, so I am a little confused by that. Most pens can't call on that advantage, though, so it's still a non-issue.

The only thing that I've been trying to say here is that I prefer top-line starters to top-line middles and mid-road starters to mid-road middles. The only time when comparison comes into play is top-line middles and mid-road starters, and while I still believe that mid-road starters are available, in a 20-team league, they're going to be hard to come by, along with top-line middles. It's all a matter of getting who's hot, anyway.

Oh, and the trade offer was there to make a point; even if you did take it, it would get voted down anyway. I hope you saw where I was going with it, but I'm not entirely sure, judging from your response.

Guru, it still is a bit of a jump from 6th to 5th. Not gloating or anything, just saying it is. Also, my complete and total power outage (1 HR over 8 games a little while back) is helping matters for you a little bit, too.

Ah, yes, I love having backups. EVERYBODY gets to play on my team.

Oh, and Baerga and Tony Graffanino are still on the wire. Strike quickly!
Guru Zim
SQL Dejection
Administrator
Level: 138

Posts: 1560/5994
EXP: 31521993
For next: 141067

Since: 9.12.01
From: Bay City, OR

Since last post: 1 day
Last activity: 3 hours
AIM:  
#11 Posted on 23.5.03 1807.16
Reposted on: 23.5.10 1808.09
5th to 6th is still a bit of a jump.

I'm 15 games off of the pace for OF and 11 off for Util - Giles and Beltran both decided to get hurt while I was off getting married and not watching the league. I also pretty much missed 4 good starts by some of my guys during that time, but got shelled by some of the players I left in place (I'm looking at you Clay Condrey and Oliver Perez).

I still can't explain my HR lead though. Chalk that one up to luck.
Whitebacon
Boudin blanc
Level: 94

Posts: 458/2466
EXP: 8287487
For next: 69201

Since: 12.1.02
From: Fresno, CA

Since last post: 73 days
Last activity: 16 hours
AIM:  
ICQ:  
#12 Posted on 23.5.03 1907.58
Reposted on: 23.5.10 1909.15
    Originally posted by Guru Zim
    5th to 6th is still a bit of a jump.

    I'm 15 games off of the pace for OF and 11 off for Util - Giles and Beltran both decided to get hurt while I was off getting married and not watching the league. I also pretty much missed 4 good starts by some of my guys during that time, but got shelled by some of the players I left in place (I'm looking at you Clay Condrey and Oliver Perez).

    I still can't explain my HR lead though. Chalk that one up to luck.




That's what you get for having a life. You need to have priorities, man.


EDIT: Look at Prior's start tonight, six runs in the first, one run over six and 2/3's after that. Just as good as any team of middle relievers would have done. Plus, since he's pitching more innings, it'll deaden the impact of that big first inning.

(edited by Whitebacon on 23.5.03 1932)

(edited by Whitebacon on 23.5.03 2103)
Merc
Potato korv
Level: 54

Posts: 90/680
EXP: 1201289
For next: 32588

Since: 3.1.02
From: Brisbane, Australia

Since last post: 1202 days
Last activity: 1180 days
#13 Posted on 24.5.03 0044.20
Reposted on: 24.5.10 0044.33
Well since I started Jeff "Definitely NOT the Six Million Dollar Man" Austin today and he went for 3 hits, 5 ER and 4 BB in 0.0 innings, I just don't know who to agree with.
drjayphd
Scrapple
Moderator
Level: 115

Posts: 1244/3937
EXP: 16534494
For next: 276921

Since: 22.4.02
From: Long Island

Since last post: 7 days
Last activity: 16 hours
AIM:  
ICQ:  
Y!:
#14 Posted on 24.5.03 0143.07
Reposted on: 24.5.10 0144.50
The only hitch is, what would you propose for the guy that has nothing to trade? No one would take Hillenbrand or Sanders when I floated them, and my best WW pickup is DESI FRIGGIN' RELAFORD.
skorpio17
Morcilla
Level: 52

Posts: 357/618
EXP: 1019107
For next: 64741

Since: 11.7.02
From: New Jersey

Since last post: 2322 days
Last activity: 2322 days
#15 Posted on 24.5.03 0902.02
Reposted on: 24.5.10 0902.19
Guru,

Just look at all of the activity in the league. all the adds, drops, and trades. I'd say about 15 people are really trying, even if they aren't succeeding.

Boone for Delgado was a tough decision. I rejected it initially, but later accepted after Delgado got hot.

From my viewpoint, I already had Hairston at 2nd and he was racking up way too many steals to bench, so Boone was my DH. Discounting their positions, Delgado is the better hitter so I made the deal.

I'm already two steps ahead. Now that Hairston is on the DL, it looked like I was screwed until I traded my 4th outfielder for Alomar. Instead of collecting Padres, I collect all-stars at each position.

If that trade didn't work out, I could've gotten Kent for Delgado and he's just as good as Boone. Plan C was to get a top minor league call-up not available yet on Yahoo.

If you really wanted to keep Delgado, you could've had Boone for Beltran.

Also, you shouldn't tell people that you traded with them to screw them over. I'd stop trading with you now, only I still think I can get good deals out of you. (Gloating over trades isn't working for Billy Bean either.)

I've seen your pitching staff. You could use Romero even though you cut him too quick.

Cow: we understand each other. I may have exagerated the importance of the middle reliver, but listen to this. The top 6 teams in our league each have at least 3 middle relievers on their teams. You won't win without them.

If you're still trying to deal your third baseman, come to me with your best offer. You know I've got the best players.

Drjayphd: I think you could find some interest in Hillenbrand, tell me what you like.
Guru Zim
SQL Dejection
Administrator
Level: 138

Posts: 1562/5994
EXP: 31521993
For next: 141067

Since: 9.12.01
From: Bay City, OR

Since last post: 1 day
Last activity: 3 hours
AIM:  
#16 Posted on 27.5.03 0216.49
Reposted on: 27.5.10 0220.25


    I'm already two steps ahead. Now that Hairston is on the DL, it looked like I was screwed until I traded my 4th outfielder for Alomar. Instead of collecting Padres, I collect all-stars at each position.



Yeah, Alomar is really racking up the points for you. Which categories is he helping you out in, again?

Re: the trade.... please. The point of making a trade is to 1) Make your team better 2) Make someone else's team worse. I'm not supposed to make trades that help other people. I'm supposed to help them if I HAVE to help them.

Romero is alright, but I'd rather have Guillermo Mota (assuming he doesn't get jail time.)

We'll see how this all shakes out in the end. Anyone who has had injury problems has had issues so far. There really is nothing to pick up with 20 people in the league.
PalpatineW
Lap cheong
Level: 77

Posts: 675/1528
EXP: 4046600
For next: 144548

Since: 2.1.02
From: Getting Rowdy

Since last post: 2743 days
Last activity: 2586 days
AIM:  
#17 Posted on 27.5.03 1746.48
Reposted on: 27.5.10 1748.44
Anyone looking to pick up virtually any of my starters (other than Prior) and Matsui should make me a proposition. I need saves and power numbers, and I've got starters to spare.
JayJayDean
Scrapple
Level: 125

Posts: 294/4716
EXP: 21942355
For next: 511872

Since: 2.1.02
From: Seattle, WA

Since last post: 7 days
Last activity: 58 min.
AIM:  
Y!:
#18 Posted on 28.5.03 0733.53
Reposted on: 28.5.10 0734.21
Hmmm. Johnson on DL. Sosa on DL. Me in 17th place. Sounds about right.

Basically, I will trade just about anybody at this point, but not in an "Expos trade anybody" kind of way. I've got 4 or 5 guys in the top 100, so send me some offers.

(Actually, I just checked the standings and I'm tied for 18th, but the good news is I'm only 1.5 points out of last place. I was in last after 5 weeks in the football league and almost came back to make the playoffs [Goddamn Gannon!] but somehow I don't see that happening here.)

(Yes, I know there are no playoffs.)

(edited by JayJayDean on 28.5.03 0537)
ALL ORIGINAL POSTS IN THIS THREAD ARE NOW AVAILABLE
Thread ahead: Anybody wanna be in a baseball movie with Bernie Mac?
Next thread: All-Time Mets team
Previous thread: The Good, The Bad...and the Red Sox
(817 newer) Next thread | Previous thread
Related threads: Fantasy Question - Fantasy Questions - Fantasy Sleepers - More...
The 7 - Baseball - Fantasy Baseball Column #1: The Master SpeaksRegister and log in to post!

The W™ message board - 7 year recycle

ZimBoard
©2001-2014 Brothers Zim
This old hunk of junk rendered your page in 0.182 seconds.