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22.10.07 0008
The 7 - Current Events & Politics - Non trolling WMD inquiry
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IsaacYankem
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#1 Posted on 13.5.03 1036.31
Reposted on: 13.5.10 1038.59
Didn't they report finding 20 missles and nerve agents or something the other month? What happened with that?
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Pool-Boy
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#2 Posted on 13.5.03 1336.09
Reposted on: 13.5.10 1336.52
Well, the missiles were real- but it was not hard enough proof. Thet were not armed with full warheads- so basically not the smoking gun that would make everyone happy. They were configured it, but none of the agents were there.

The nerve agents I am not sure about.

The biggest thing happening now are the 2 alleged Mobile Weapons labs that they have found. There was another one (the UHaul thing that they found first) but I think we all pretty much knew that one was a reach. These 2 they have now are exactly what Powell described in his UN address.... now we are just waiting for analysis...
StampedeFan23
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#3 Posted on 13.5.03 1543.44
Reposted on: 13.5.10 1544.47
If I remember right, the nerve agents turned out to be pesticides. But, pesticides are nerve agents, so it looks like a matter of semantics, or someone in Monsanto controlling the spin...
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#4 Posted on 13.5.03 1638.00
Reposted on: 13.5.10 1646.11
Hmm.


It's getting harder and harder to make the claim that Iraq was a threat to America when they can't even find one, stinking, measly gram of chemicals.......



Ah well. I'm sure that Georgie-boy's concerns will be allayed once the cheap oil starts flowing.

:)
OndaGrande
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#5 Posted on 13.5.03 1953.23
Reposted on: 13.5.10 1956.06
an answer to that is that someone with the right knowledge,gear and facility could mix together non weapon chems into a chem weapon in as little as 20 minutes and transfer them to a delivery system that is on hand rapidly. that is one reason we haven't found them. second, like Rumsfeld said, if the UN inspectors couldn't find them, don't expect us too. and I tend to beleive the bio and possibly blatant weapons grade chems were destroyed so we couldn't find them, expecting some facet of the regime to survive and give them and their supporters more anti war ammo.
ICEMAN
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#6 Posted on 13.5.03 2033.06
Reposted on: 13.5.10 2033.51
The WMD thing is about the only thing that the Dems has gotten "right" so far. So, they are gonna beat into the mind of everyone on the right. Hell, I wouldn't put it pass them if they use "Were are they Mr. Bush ?" as the "catchphrase" for the 2004 Democratic convention.


But if we did find anything they would probably question it and say we put them there, so it kinda a lose/lose situation.
messenoir
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#7 Posted on 15.5.03 0831.11
Reposted on: 15.5.10 0833.38
Here's something else we got right

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/editorial.htm

Table on the bottom with sources. So we can't find WMDs, we kill a lot of civilians, we can't find Hussein, we can't find Bin Ladin, Al Qaeda attacks again. What has Bush gotten right?
Grimis
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#8 Posted on 15.5.03 0845.34
Reposted on: 15.5.10 0850.46

    Originally posted by the freak who wrote the aticle in the link
    The data we have published tells a small part of the story which the Iraqi people are entitled to demand be told in full before they are asked to put this war behind them. The majority of the worlds people will surely support any such demand.

Because people are worried about the plight of cluster bombs after 30 years of widescale rape, maiming, torture and executions...

Nobody said cluster bombs are a pretty thing. War is hell. But it would you havde preferred fire bombing like Dresden? A nuke? Or street to street urban combat where the same civilians would be in the line of fire constantly, likely killing and maiming more than 372 people.
CRZ
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#9 Posted on 15.5.03 0848.51
Reposted on: 15.5.10 0857.49

    Originally posted by messenoir
    Here's something else we got right

    http://www.iraqbodycount.net/editorial.htm

    Table on the bottom with sources. So we can't find WMDs, we kill a lot of civilians, we can't find Hussein, we can't find Bin Ladin, Al Qaeda attacks again. What has Bush gotten right?

Well, I'm *pretty* sure no more planes have flown into any more buildings...
A-MOL
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#10 Posted on 15.5.03 0904.04
Reposted on: 15.5.10 0905.35

    Originally posted by CRZ

      Originally posted by messenoir
      Here's something else we got right

      http://www.iraqbodycount.net/editorial.htm

      Table on the bottom with sources. So we can't find WMDs, we kill a lot of civilians, we can't find Hussein, we can't find Bin Ladin, Al Qaeda attacks again. What has Bush gotten right?

    Well, I'm *pretty* sure no more planes have flown into any more buildings...


Generally, bombs and attacks against western targets haven't stopped, though. Does it have to be a spectacular attack such as 9/11 that before it is counted?
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#11 Posted on 15.5.03 1000.32
Reposted on: 15.5.10 1018.41
Well, I'm *pretty* sure no more planes have flown into any more buildings...

CRZ, you're trying to claim a negative as proof of a positive. That's like the reasoning from the "Bear Patrol" episode of "The Simpsons". Does the absence of tiger attacks in America over the past couple of years mean that Bush has successfully defended the country from rampaging tigers?

That Al-Qaeda hasn't launched another devastating offensive that took them years to plan in the space of eighteen months isn't really the best barometer of Bush's success on the homeland security front, particularly when all intelligence shows that the organization is just as strong as it was before 9/11 now and much harder to penetrate because they've reorganized their chain of command. We captured their third-in-command and two weeks later, his information was already completely worthless. (And various Western intelligence agencies, INCLUDING the CIA, at least partly blame the concentration of US intelligence resources on Iraq for it.)
messenoir
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#12 Posted on 15.5.03 1004.54
Reposted on: 15.5.10 1021.15

    Originally posted by Grimis

      Originally posted by the freak who wrote the aticle in the link
      The data we have published tells a small part of the story which the Iraqi people are entitled to demand be told in full before they are asked to put this war behind them. The majority of the worlds people will surely support any such demand.

    Because people are worried about the plight of cluster bombs after 30 years of widescale rape, maiming, torture and executions...

    Nobody said cluster bombs are a pretty thing. War is hell. But it would you havde preferred fire bombing like Dresden? A nuke? Or street to street urban combat where the same civilians would be in the line of fire constantly, likely killing and maiming more than 372 people.



When you get your right hand cut off, you still worry about getting yout left hand cut off also. And several thousand civilians dead is certainly a few more then "oops, we made a few mistakes."

You excuse "lesser" attrocities by saying there are worse attrocities. It doesn't work that way.
CRZ
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#13 Posted on 15.5.03 1059.00
Reposted on: 15.5.10 1059.05

    Originally posted by godking
    CRZ, you're trying to claim a negative as proof of a positive.
No, I'm using an extremely ridiculous counterpoint against an extremely ridiculous point. Please pay attention.



    That's like the reasoning from the "Bear Patrol" episode of "The Simpsons". Does the absence of tiger attacks in America over the past couple of years mean that Bush has successfully defended the country from rampaging tigers?
Golly, godking, I don't remember any tigers on 9/11...maybe you were watching a different channel!

I'm sorry, but citing "iraqibodycount.net" doesn't indicate to ME that you want to seriously discuss whatever you think the issue is. Yeah, YOU didn't do it, but you're talking to me now, so.

godking
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#14 Posted on 15.5.03 1227.40
Reposted on: 15.5.10 1227.50
I'm sorry, but citing "iraqibodycount.net" doesn't indicate to ME that you want to seriously discuss whatever you think the issue is. Yeah, YOU didn't do it, but you're talking to me now, so.

Examining iraqbodycount.net's tabulation strategy, it seems fair - tabulating Iraq's civilian (not military) body count solely from verifiably sourced/eyewitness news reports and international aid society dossiers (and he makes a point of documenting and listing his sources) which are pretty tight. He's not inflating the count like the Afghani counts frequently were, and even providing a minimum and maximum to allow for room for error - and he's only going by verified and documented deaths, which means his count is very likely skewing low.

I'm not sure what more a lefty who opposes the war has to do to be considered "serious" in your book.

But that's more or less besides the point anyway. Messenoir's argument was that the errors made in the Iraq war, as well as the clusterfuck that Afghanistan has become, and the inability to capture Osama Bin Laden after eighteen months or even severely disrupt Al-Qaeda's operations, and the gaping holes that still exist in U.S. national security (and I'll add "the near-complete eradication of goodwill towards America across the globe") are evidence that Bush has handled the war against terrorism poorly - which is frankly a valid viewpoint. You're countering with "that's ridiculous" and dismissing sources seemingly out of hand. That strikes me as an unfair arguing position.
Pool-Boy
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#15 Posted on 15.5.03 1317.15
Reposted on: 15.5.10 1318.37
Saddam's Crimes

Even if iraqibodycount.net is totally accurate, when stacked up to that, and this, and countless other sites a simple Google search will uncover, you see just how ridiculous of an argument they are making is. If we did not oust Hussein, he would have murdered more civilians himself on average than we killed on accident to liberate them. And more would be dying still today.

Iraq was lead by a murderer. If you opposed him, you die. You might just die anyway, for the hell of it. Forget the WMDs, and the terrorists and all of the UN, Republican vs Democrat political garbage for a second. Exactly how is liberating these people wrong? Yes, some civilians died, but the number of them PALES in comparision to the number that Hussein would have killed himself had we not attacked. And they would be continuing.

Today, an Iraqi does not have to worry about being murdered, or raped, or tortured, because he or she misspoke in public.

I am sorry- iraqibodycount.net's whiney argument just does not hold water. It is entirely one-sided, and presents numbers totally out of context.
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