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The 7 - Current Events & Politics - California State Motto: We hate jobs! Register and log in to post!
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Michrome
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#1 Posted on 8.5.03 2119.46
Reposted on: 8.5.10 2122.59
The legislature is currently debating a 489% tax increase on all "large" corporations. Now, I know a lot of people have a disdain for big business, but this isn't going to hurt the CEO's...it's going to hurt all of the average people that get fired so the corporations can maintain their corporate margin. The legislature in California doesn't seem to understand that people that are unemployed won't be paying any income tax. The situation here in California is getting dire, and there's one thing that saddens me more than anything else: If every member of the legislature had to run for re-election next week, I bet the majority would win overwhelmingly. The recall Grey Davis effort seems to be dead in its tracks, and I'm left wondering if California will pull out of this deficit anytime in the next 20 years.
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Grimis
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#2 Posted on 9.5.03 0548.23
Reposted on: 9.5.10 0549.37
Thep roblem with California is that they subscribe to the leftist mantra that raising taxes will somehow increase government revenue, completely forgetting that businesses and residents have less money to spend on goods, or in the case of business, on job growth and retention.
MoeGates
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#3 Posted on 9.5.03 0926.09
Reposted on: 9.5.10 0928.07
What a nutty leftist mantra that worked to a T in the mid-90s.

I'm sorry it's not the magical "raising less money actually means raising more money" philosophy of the trickle-down crowd. Some parties actually managed to add one and one and come up with two.

Now, I know a lot of people have a disdain for big business, but this isn't going to hurt the CEO's...it's going to hurt all of the average people that get fired so the corporations can maintain their corporate margin.

So cap CEO pay. That's a great idea.
Grimis
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#4 Posted on 9.5.03 0929.37
Reposted on: 9.5.10 0932.12

    Originally posted by MoeGates
    So cap CEO pay. That's a great idea.

Yeah...wage controls. Worked well in Soviet Russia...
MoeGates
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#5 Posted on 9.5.03 0937.34
Reposted on: 9.5.10 0940.05
If you want to use Russia as an example, you can argue for the complete failure of the capitalist system, communist system, and czarist system.

Maybe it's Russia that can't get its act together.
dMr
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#6 Posted on 9.5.03 1037.52
Reposted on: 9.5.10 1042.53

    Originally posted by Grimis
    Thep roblem with California is that they subscribe to the leftist mantra that raising taxes will somehow increase government revenue.


In this case I fancy it's just gonna lead to a good few people getting laid off to fund the increased expenditure on lawyers and accountants to help the companies dodge the tax hikes.
Michrome
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#7 Posted on 9.5.03 1108.28
Reposted on: 9.5.10 1114.29


    So cap CEO pay. That's a great idea.


Didn't you say somewhere else that you don't believe in punishing people for living the "American Dream"? I hate to break it to you, but to become a CEO, it generally involves over 65 hours a week of work, and multiple job changes. Most CEO's got there because they EARNED IT. They didn't find the contract at the end of the rainbow. Punishing the hardest-working Americans helps nobody. Don't you remember what happened with the luxury tax on Yachts? Rich people just bought yachts in other countries, and the people working for yacht companies here got fucked. Average people.

Anyways, to act as if the increase in tax revenues in the 90's was only a result of higher taxes is ignorant. The economy did not have surpluses until the capital gains tax cut (a republican bill), and that's not to mention that Clinton happened to be in office during the gigantic microchip boom, which he had nothing to do with. When Kennedy cut taxes, we got more tax revenues. When Raegan cut taxes, he doubled tax revenues.

Sadly, you probably just gave Gray Davis another idea to plunge this state into further debt. I can almost hear companies moving to Nevada as we speak. Who pays the real price in the end? The citizens of California.
messenoir
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#8 Posted on 9.5.03 1204.35
Reposted on: 9.5.10 1204.41
You know, my immediate boss in the Sierra Club (the director for Missouri) works about 75 hours a week and makes $30,000/year. There are 4 paid workers in Missouri, and the rest volunteers. Teachers work at all hours of the day. When not teaching, they make and grade tests and papers, have meetings with students, etc. The lucky ones make 40,000/year. Most make less. There are countless aid organizations that overwork and underpay people.

So please don't tell me that working 65 hours/week automatically entitles you to astronomical wages. These CEOs make huge wages, get grotesque severance packages (so if they steal, they can get a slap on the wrist and only own 3 cars instead of 5), and every day corporations are laying off workers who work at least as hard as any CEO for far less money.

You don't make a lot of money by working hard. You make a lot of money by being willing to shed any personal morals and step on people. You make money by being willing to cut corners, pander to your stockholders instead of ordinary citizens andcut benefits and wages of people who actually make your company run.

Grimis
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#9 Posted on 9.5.03 1208.06
Reposted on: 9.5.10 1212.35

    Originally posted by messenoir
    You don't make a lot of money by working hard. You make a lot of money by being willing to shed any personal morals and step on people. You make money by being willing to cut corners, pander to your stockholders instead of ordinary citizens andcut benefits and wages of people who actually make your company run.

I think that this may have taken the cake as the newly crowned "Most Ridiculous Thing Ever Said on this Board".
MoeGates
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#10 Posted on 9.5.03 1216.53
Reposted on: 9.5.10 1217.01
Didn't you say somewhere else that you don't believe in punishing people for living the "American Dream"? I hate to break it to you, but to become a CEO, it generally involves over 65 hours a week of work, and multiple job changes. Most CEO's got there because they EARNED IT. They didn't find the contract at the end of the rainbow. Punishing the hardest-working Americans helps nobody.

There's the fundamental difference between you and I. You view CEOs as the hardest working people in America. I view the immigrant cab-drivers and housekeepers as the hardest working people in America. And regardless, does a CEO work a hundred times harder than a cab driver? Do they work ten times harder than an emergency-room doctor? There's a lot of jobs that require 65 hour weeks. In some of the you make $20,000, and in others you make $20 million.

I'm all for living the American dream, getting rewarded for hard work, and making a better life for you kids. But in the last 20 years or so, once you've gotten up to the top 1% or so, it's just gotten ridiculous. It used to be that the CEO knew how to run a business, and got paid a very comfortable living to do so. Now a CEO is a celebrity motivational speaker, and gets paid 80 million to retire.

For you to act as if the increase in tax revenues in the 60s and 80s were due to the results of tax cuts is just as ignorant.

I'm not an economist. But I do know enough to know that you can pretty much spin and tax policy any way you want.
Grimis
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#11 Posted on 9.5.03 1301.37
Reposted on: 9.5.10 1302.09

    Originally posted by MoeGates
    For you to act as if the increase in tax revenues in the 60s and 80s were due to the results of tax cuts is just as ignorant.

Sorry Moe: tax cuts increase revenue. If you don't believe me, you can refer to this breif academic paper from Canada, or the fact that it worked in Russia.

Remember this; a tax cut combined with reduced government spending(on both sides of the aisle) combined with a flat tax is what we really need.
Pool-Boy
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#12 Posted on 9.5.03 1305.09
Reposted on: 9.5.10 1308.01
I think we can all agree that a cab driver and a teacher work hard. That is not the issue here.

I believe what Grimis is saying that CEOs do more than work astronomical numbers of hours. They do that job requires education, many, many years of experience, vast knowlege of their industry- not only of their product, but the ins and outs of running a large corperation, instinct to know when something may work and when it will crash and burn, good economic sense, and a hell of a lot more. They are ALWAYS working, and I really think that 65 hours per week figure is pretty conservative.

I am sorry, but not just anyone can be a CEO. Virtually anyone willing to work hard can be a cab driver. YES, to a certain extent, many CEOs turn out to be greedy bastards, and we hate them for it. But in the corperate world, this is a good trait when channeled properly.

No, we should not cap CEO salaries. That is unconstitutional and perhaps the most communist idea I have ever heard suggested on this board. Yeah, they make a huge amount of money, But where does that money go? Right back into the market, helping the economy and creating jobs.

I won't begrudge the cab driver hs hard work, but he does not do nearly the same amount of work, or sacrifice nearly as much in a lifetime, as a CEO.
Hairy Caray
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#13 Posted on 9.5.03 1307.22
Reposted on: 9.5.10 1310.04
I have studied economics, and my conclusion is that

High taxes + socialism (in a smaller, managable country like Switzerland) = success.

High taxes + free market = BAD BAD BAD BAD. It might increase government revenues in the short run, but so what?! Who cares if the government is making more money than last year? As long as the government has the money it needs to meet its duties to the citizens, it's doing fine. The rest of the money belongs with private citizens who 1) earned it and 2) will spend it, causing economic growth, leading to a stronger nation in the long run.

MC = MR
Hairy Caray
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#14 Posted on 9.5.03 1307.22
Reposted on: 9.5.10 1310.27
I have studied economics, and my conclusion is that

High taxes + socialism (in a smaller, managable country like Switzerland) = success.

High taxes + free market = BAD BAD BAD BAD. It might increase government revenues in the short run, but so what?! Who cares if the government is making more money than last year? As long as the government has the money it needs to meet its duties to the citizens, it's doing fine. The rest of the money belongs with private citizens who 1) earned it and 2) will spend it, causing economic growth, leading to a stronger nation in the long run.

MC = MR


(edited by Hairy Caray on 9.5.03 1408)
Leroy
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#15 Posted on 9.5.03 1336.32
Reposted on: 9.5.10 1336.45

    Originally posted by Pool-Boy
    I think we can all agree that a cab driver and a teacher work hard. That is not the issue here.

    I believe what Grimis is saying that CEOs do more than work astronomical numbers of hours. They do that job requires education, many, many years of experience, vast knowlege of their industry- not only of their product, but the ins and outs of running a large corperation, instinct to know when something may work and when it will crash and burn, good economic sense, and a hell of a lot more. They are ALWAYS working, and I really think that 65 hours per week figure is pretty conservative.

    I am sorry, but not just anyone can be a CEO. Virtually anyone willing to work hard can be a cab driver. YES, to a certain extent, many CEOs turn out to be greedy bastards, and we hate them for it. But in the corperate world, this is a good trait when channeled properly.

    No, we should not cap CEO salaries. That is unconstitutional and perhaps the most communist idea I have ever heard suggested on this board. Yeah, they make a huge amount of money, But where does that money go? Right back into the market, helping the economy and creating jobs.

    I won't begrudge the cab driver hs hard work, but he does not do nearly the same amount of work, or sacrifice nearly as much in a lifetime, as a CEO.



How about risk and value to a community? Should the amount you get paid have something to do with amount of value your service provides to the community, and how much risk is involved. Personally, I'd rather see firefighters make the kind of salary a CEO makes - I sure as hell value their work more than most CEO's.

Salery caps exist for every occupation... any employer, when looking at salery ranges for given positions, is going to look at similar jobs in other organziations and attempt to pay within that salary range. Why is it "communist" to cap a CEO over a janitor?

And not everyone could be a cab driver - and to say ca drivers don't "sacrifice" as much as a CEO is very debatable.
MoeGates
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#16 Posted on 9.5.03 1401.42
Reposted on: 9.5.10 1405.43
*sigh*

Click Here (korpios.org)

You can find economists arguing for every postion between these two also, which is my point.

Virtually anyone willing to work hard can be a cab driver.

Well, living in New York, I can tell you that I wish this wasn't true...


DMC
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#17 Posted on 9.5.03 1439.38
Reposted on: 9.5.10 1441.31
"So please don't tell me that working 65 hours/week automatically entitles you to astronomical wages. These CEOs make huge wages, get grotesque severance packages (so if they steal, they can get a slap on the wrist and only own 3 cars instead of 5), and every day corporations are laying off workers who work at least as hard as any CEO for far less money.

You don't make a lot of money by working hard. You make a lot of money by being willing to shed any personal morals and step on people. You make money by being willing to cut corners, pander to your stockholders instead of ordinary citizens andcut benefits and wages of people who actually make your company run."

You know, as much as I consider myself an all around conservative, I do at times agree with these types of sentiments. WHY DON'T CEO's just voluntarily cut their salaries instead of firing people in their company? Why can't capitalism, in essense, have some sort of heart to it? Why must capitalism more often than not equal "I am getting as much as I can out of this pie, and SCREW YOU." Are these guys (and ladies) *really* going to be able to spend all the gigantic amounts of money they are collecting, and are there children and grandchildren *really* going to need that much?

Maybe the answer lies more in trying to convince people who go to business schools that the goal in life is not to gather as many toys and as much money as possible.

DMC
Grimis
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#18 Posted on 9.5.03 1442.44
Reposted on: 9.5.10 1442.50

    Originally posted by Leroy
    Salery caps exist for every occupation... any employer, when looking at salery ranges for given positions, is going to look at similar jobs in other organziations and attempt to pay within that salary range. Why is it "communist" to cap a CEO over a janitor?

If a business does that privately, so be it. If the government does it(which is the impression I got was being called for) that is communist.
MoeGates
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#19 Posted on 9.5.03 1500.06
Reposted on: 9.5.10 1504.36
You know, as much as I consider myself an all around conservative, I do at times agree with these types of sentiments.

My friend, you were born 100 years too late William Jennings Bryant is your presidential candidate.

Leroy
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#20 Posted on 9.5.03 1901.04
Reposted on: 9.5.10 1902.17

    Originally posted by Grimis
    If a business does that privately, so be it. If the government does it(which is the impression I got was being called for) that is communist.


So what you saying is that its okay for a company to pay whatever wage it wants, however unbalanced or unfair, but when they government (who, in theory, is supposed to protect its citizens) tries to step in and balance out the polarity between a CEO whose livelihood is well taken care of versus, say, a janitor who's position is far less secure but none the less important - that's a bad thing - or in your words, Communist.

Why is it okay for private businesses to operate anyway they want, even at the expense of their own employees?
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