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The 7 - Current Events & Politics - Ah, how I miss the South...
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Battlezone
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#1 Posted on 1.5.03 1759.51
Reposted on: 1.5.10 1804.37
I just moved from the South, and while I was there, I was constantly seeing examples of exactly how far we HAVEN'T come in race relations. It was driving me insane, so I got out. And I was in Atlanta, which claims to be in the heart of the "New South".

Both of these articles discuss how both whites and blacks are voluntarily segregating from each other. To each his own, I guess, but isn't this the complete opposite from what the Civil Rights Movement was about?

Whites-Only Prom (story.news.yahoo.com)

The Re-Segregation of America (from 2001) (cbsnews.com)

Opinions, etc?
Promote this thread!
TheCow
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#2 Posted on 1.5.03 2151.04
Reposted on: 1.5.10 2151.04
I think the problem is here an issue of de facto segregation - segregation by choice. (Of course, that's what you just said...)

However, the problem with that is that this type of segregation is often ingrained by those that come before; the parents that lived during segregated times, and so on. Those parents that place the values of a segregated society on their children may indirectly cause the type of stories you said to happen (assuming, of course, nothing to the contrary).

Of course, the opposite is the case, too; if the parents allow their child to interact with other races, then this kind of thing probably wouldn't happen as much.

What I think it comes down to is people feel comfortable around those of the same race as them; they'll take whatever steps is necessary to keep that feeling of comfort intact. (Fortunately, we've progressed enough to the point where people won't resort to violence to keep that level of comfort, but in some respects, it's not much better.) Enter the concept of "white flight" to the suburbs.

I can't say I'm happy with this turn of events - although I'm not necessarily suprised by it. I still hold onto a belief that eventually - maybe not in our lifetime, but eventually - people will stop seeing things across racial borders.

Obviously, I'm saddened by this, but not necessarily surprised.
Scott Summets
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#3 Posted on 2.5.03 1013.24
Reposted on: 2.5.10 1014.27
In some of the boondock little towns of Georgia, there still is a lot of racism, but I honestly don't think Atlanta is bad at all. Being from Atlanta I can safely say that back in high school, my school had no race problems (of course not everyone wasn't racist, but that's to be expected). What really pisses me off about a couple Northerners up in Philly is how they try to accuse me of being racist just from being from Atlanta, and when I ask them they have NO minority friends--whereas I played football on a totally mixed team of 100 people and honestly would do anything for most of the guys, white, black, Asian, etc. If anyone had seen my little personal den next to my room, normally there would be people of all races up in my house, I honestly didn't care. While this report is sad and sickening, and maybe I was just lucky living in Norcross, I don't think it's that bad in Southern cities. But Battlezone, I will agree with you that some of the smaller, poorer towns in the South are very racist--but having relatives in a small, poor town in Pennsylvania leads me to believe that White supremacy and racism is more a condition of whites being poor and ignorant--not just living in the South.
vsp
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#4 Posted on 2.5.03 1045.12
Reposted on: 2.5.10 1045.12

    Originally posted by Scott Summets
    But Battlezone, I will agree with you that some of the smaller, poorer towns in the South are very racist--but having relatives in a small, poor town in Pennsylvania leads me to believe that White supremacy and racism is more a condition of whites being poor and ignorant--not just living in the South.


Ding! We have a winner.

You don't have to travel far outside of Philadelphia to find yourself in some _very_ scary towns, particularly if you are or appear to be a member of any given minority group. Ditto for neighboring Maryland. They could use "Spend time in a Denny's in Rising Sun, MD" as an effective challenge for black contestants on "Fear Factor."
OlFuzzyBastard
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#5 Posted on 2.5.03 1104.20
Reposted on: 2.5.10 1109.51

    Originally posted by vsp

      Originally posted by Scott Summets
      But Battlezone, I will agree with you that some of the smaller, poorer towns in the South are very racist--but having relatives in a small, poor town in Pennsylvania leads me to believe that White supremacy and racism is more a condition of whites being poor and ignorant--not just living in the South.


    Ding! We have a winner.

    You don't have to travel far outside of Philadelphia to find yourself in some _very_ scary towns, particularly if you are or appear to be a member of any given minority group. Ditto for neighboring Maryland. They could use "Spend time in a Denny's in Rising Sun, MD" as an effective challenge for black contestants on "Fear Factor."



Ah, the fabled "Pennsyltucky". I believe it was James Carville who once described this state as "Pittsburgh and Philadelphia with Alabama in the middle". That seemed about right to me.
Grimis
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#6 Posted on 2.5.03 1240.16
Reposted on: 2.5.10 1246.38

    Originally posted by vsp
    Ditto for neighboring Maryland. They could use "Spend time in a Denny's in Rising Sun, MD" as an effective challenge for black contestants on "Fear Factor."


What's so scary about a small town? I go through small towns all the time and there is NOTHING scary about them. Hell, if I wanted to see a hate crime, I'd walk down into East Baltimore after dark where I would be HIGHLY prone to being attacked because I'm white....but nobody would have the balls to prosecute it as a hate crime.

Small-town...big city. Racism exists in both, and it exists in ALL races.
Scott Summets
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#7 Posted on 2.5.03 1546.48
Reposted on: 2.5.10 1550.08
To vsp and OldFuzzyBastard, to clarify my experience of Pennsylvania, I just moved to Philly last year, and have lived in Atlanta the rest of my life, but most of my family lives (and both my parents grew up in) in Emporium PA, and a lot in St. Mary's. So all my life I've been visiting Pennsylvanian towns, and I particular remeber once a friend of one of my grandmothers nearly passing out in shock when she heard that "Two colored folk done spent the night in your house last week!" Also, in Norcross one thing that was troubling to one of my black friends on the football team I was on, Markeith was when some black people accosted him for riding with me. After practice we were walking to my car and six or seven black guys were like "Man, how are you going to ride with a white boy like that!" and much more racist and hateful things that don't need to be written--use your imagination and you can think of some. Markeith though just looked at them and shook his head and was like "Those kids are fucked up, we will always be boys Mike, don't worry about them" and walked off with me.

(edited by Scott Summets on 2.5.03 1653)
shockdown
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#8 Posted on 3.5.03 0854.49
Reposted on: 3.5.10 0856.02
    Originally posted by Grimis

      Originally posted by vsp
      Ditto for neighboring Maryland. They could use "Spend time in a Denny's in Rising Sun, MD" as an effective challenge for black contestants on "Fear Factor."


    What's so scary about a small town? I go through small towns all the time and there is NOTHING scary about them. Hell, if I wanted to see a hate crime, I'd walk down into East Baltimore after dark where I would be HIGHLY prone to being attacked because I'm white....but nobody would have the balls to prosecute it as a hate crime.

    Small-town...big city. Racism exists in both, and it exists in ALL races.



Think about what you just said. You're a white person walking through a small town. Assuming said town is mostly white, then of course there's no problem for you -- the residents will not be looking at you like you're some sort of alien lifeform. The fact that you have a poster here whose grandmother still refers to people like myself as "colored" shows the mindset that still exists.

And with the Baltimore comparison, it's hardly vaild. I could walk around there, or parts of SE Washington DC, in the scenario you described, and be just as at risk.

Why? Because you're walking around in an area with a sizable crime rate AFTER dark. Someone in those areas coming after you, they don't care if you're white (all it might do is mark you as an easier target because you're likely not from that part of town and don't know your way around), they care if you have anything on you that they might want. Whereas, many of the small towns in Central PA, or anywhere else, would quite possibly be uncomfortable or unsafe for a minority in broad daylight.

And, and word, to whoever mentioned the propensity of some Northerners to be all high and mighty when it comes to the subject of race. I'm originally from New Jersey, with a stint in Philadelphia during my youth. I've vistied Virginia and N.C., but Maryland is the farthest south I've ever lived. Having been around these places, I've noticed that what happens is that anytime I've ever encounted predjudice in those southern states, it was pretty blatant, in the form of audible comments. Whereas in the north -- and especially among a lot of Northeastern people who call themselves liberal, mind you -- are outwardly "inclusive," in that they'll make a big show of supporting affirmative action, or railing against republicans as being racists. These same people, however, seem to have problems with your family moving in next to them, or a black man dating their daughter, and so on.

(edited by shockdown on 3.5.03 0656)
vsp
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#9 Posted on 3.5.03 1021.18
Reposted on: 3.5.10 1022.12
    Originally posted by Grimis
    What's so scary about a small town? I go through small towns all the time and there is NOTHING scary about them.
    (snip snip snip)
    ...because I'm white,




If you look up, you might see the vapor trail from my point. It passed cleanly over your head at a high rate of speed.

EDIT: Now, as you noted, are there places in big cities where I (another suburban white boy) would fear to go? Of course. Racism exists all over, among all ethnic groups, and anyone can find a place where they'd be the target if they look hard enough. In many poor, rural, predominantly-white towns (which central PA and northern MD have in abundance), Visiting While Black _does_ make you an unwelcome guest to many, and may end up being a hazard to your health if you push your luck.

Scott's point again:

"White supremacy and racism is more a condition of whites being poor and ignorant--not just living in the South."

Let's turn it around and reapply the principle, as a theoretical exercise:

"Black supremacy and racism is more a condition of blacks being poor and ignorant--not just living in inner cities."

Does that also ring true? Discuss.


(edited by vsp on 3.5.03 0840)
DrOp
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#10 Posted on 3.5.03 1102.14
Reposted on: 3.5.10 1102.15
vsp wrote:


    Let's turn it around and reapply the principle, as a theoretical exercise:

    "Black supremacy and racism is more a condition of blacks being poor and ignorant--not just living in inner cities."

    Does that also ring true? Discuss.



Let's NOT, since the original point of the thread was to talk about how white students decided to have a white only prom after previous effrots to have an integrated prom, not the other way around.
vsp
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#11 Posted on 3.5.03 1251.02
Reposted on: 3.5.10 1251.05

    Originally posted by DrOp
    vsp wrote:


      Let's turn it around and reapply the principle, as a theoretical exercise:

      "Black supremacy and racism is more a condition of blacks being poor and ignorant--not just living in inner cities."

      Does that also ring true? Discuss.



    Let's NOT, since the original point of the thread was to talk about how white students decided to have a white only prom after previous efforts to have an integrated prom, not the other way around.



And yet, the black students in this community -- presumably just as poor (as a general rule) as their fellow white students -- didn't establish a "blacks only" prom. They opened their prom up to everyone.

I wonder why the white students reacted differently?

Ah, it's the "ignorant" half of the "poor and ignorant" phrase kicking in. Ignorance, of course, knows no economic or ethnic boundaries.
DMC
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#12 Posted on 3.5.03 1352.30
Reposted on: 3.5.10 1352.35
This is fascinating...I never would have thought that states like Pennsylvania have that many rural, conservative areas (with a good deal of racism, as ya'll are describing.) Out here you tend to think of the northeast as big cities and largely filled-in areas in between. I understand there are rural areas everywhere, but it does sound kind of surprising, at least the way it is being described. California has much the same image problem; easterners often fail to understand that there is more here than just beaches and Redwoods.

DMC
vsp
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#13 Posted on 3.5.03 1451.30
Reposted on: 3.5.10 1452.36
The filled-in areas aren't always as filled-in as you might think. You have Philadelphia, and then you can see "rings" of new developments and growth surrounding it (primarily to the west and south); houses 5-10 miles from the city will often be much older than houses 15-20 miles away. The reason is obvious; those leaving the city (or moving to the area from outside) can't knock over existing buildings to build their own, so major construction gets farther and farther away from the city itself.

This ripple effect means that, seemingly perversely, you get newer and more modern developments the FARTHER you go from Philly... but the wave has to crash somewhere. Beyond these rings of development, you have a lot of rural farm country and small communities (i.e. the people whose families never packed up and went to the Big City in the first place). You can almost put your finger on these layers of development, and pinpoint where the lifestyles abruptly shift from suburbia to ruralism.

Suburban creep keeps moving outwards, and small-town communities soon have to deal with rising property values, strip malls and Wal-Marts... suburban sprawl is not a pretty thing to watch sometimes. But Pennsylvania is still a pretty big state, and there are _lots_ of areas in between that are largely untouched by this effect. Smaller cities like Lancaster, Williamsport, Harrisburg, Reading, etc. are like stepping back in time in some ways; some development has taken place, but a _lot_ of the architecture is from 50-100 years old, and the building boom hasn't set in.

(This is nothing unique to PA; I felt the same way about Raleigh, NC when I went to college there. You had Raleigh, Chapel Hill and Durham close together as little outposts of modern civilization, and Research Triangle Park in between as a magnet for tech jobs, but go 15 minutes in any direction and you were standing in the middle of a tobacco field.)

(edited by vsp on 3.5.03 1251)
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#14 Posted on 3.5.03 1751.41
Reposted on: 3.5.10 1753.36
That's because there's no such thing as suburbia in North Carolina. The next best thing we have is Cary, which is set off to the side near Raleigh and Research Triangle Park, and to anyone who doesn't live there is known as the Containment Area for Relocated Yankees.

Of course, Cary is a traffic congested nightmare, so if you don't live there you generally try not to go there.

-Jag
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#15 Posted on 3.5.03 1940.43
Reposted on: 3.5.10 1943.06
'Relocated yankees' and 'congested traffic' seem to go hand in hand where ever they go. There are a whole bunch of geezers living over in St Pete/Clearwater end the traffic there is hellish.

EDIT: Eye Kant Spel!

(edited by Cerebus on 3.5.03 1943)
eviljonhunt81
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#16 Posted on 4.5.03 0502.22
Reposted on: 4.5.10 0503.24
I've always found the rural midwest to be more racist than the South. I believe that Ohio has the largest KKK membership of any state. Or did. Or the rebirth was started there. Or something. I do know that somewhere in Inidana there is a town with a big sign saying "Nigger, don't let the sun set on your ass in this town." That's fucking scary.
ges7184
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#17 Posted on 4.5.03 1157.06
Reposted on: 4.5.10 1158.44

    Originally posted by vsp

      Originally posted by DrOp
      vsp wrote:


        Let's turn it around and reapply the principle, as a theoretical exercise:

        "Black supremacy and racism is more a condition of blacks being poor and ignorant--not just living in inner cities."

        Does that also ring true? Discuss.



      Let's NOT, since the original point of the thread was to talk about how white students decided to have a white only prom after previous efforts to have an integrated prom, not the other way around.



    And yet, the black students in this community -- presumably just as poor (as a general rule) as their fellow white students -- didn't establish a "blacks only" prom. They opened their prom up to everyone.

    I wonder why the white students reacted differently?

    Ah, it's the "ignorant" half of the "poor and ignorant" phrase kicking in. Ignorance, of course, knows no economic or ethnic boundaries.



Is there any particular reason why you had to spin this?

Unless you have a different article to point to, I'm just going by the article posted above. It states that this particular class organized an integrated prom. They eliminated the segragated proms. This is not the same thing as opening the "blacks only" prom to everybody. Now, you can say that in response to this "whites only" thing, the black students didn't retaliate with a "blacs only" thing. But the way your statement reads, it's as if one day the black students decided 'hey, let's invite the white people to our prom', when that didn't happen at all. It was a collective effort to create an integrated prom, and eliminate the segragated prom.

Now we have a "small number" of junior class members that will have a "white-only" prom, in addition to the integrated prom which is still on. Things to note: the senior class is not participating in this. Also, how small is a "small number"? 50? 25? 10? 5? 1? Before you laugh at 1, remember this is the media we are dealing with here. They made a big deal out of the KKK protesting the Masters at Augusta? How big was the group of KKK protestors? 1. Just saying that sometimes the media will make a mountain out of a molehill if it will make an interesting story.

I also found it interesting that the "prom" became the point of the post, according to DrOp. Because the funny thing is that I thought the point of the post was that both races were making efforts to segregate themselves, thus setting back race relations. The "prom" story was an example of whites segregating themselves from blacks. The CBS story was an example of blacks segregating themselves from whites. Yet the second article has been ignored, in favor of the first. Looks like the point of the original post has been missed, at least somewhere down the line.
OlFuzzyBastard
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#18 Posted on 4.5.03 1223.24
Reposted on: 4.5.10 1223.33
From the article:


"I cried," said McCrary, who is black. "The black juniors said, 'Our prom is open to everyone. If you want to come, come.'"
ges7184
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#19 Posted on 6.5.03 1105.09
Reposted on: 6.5.10 1113.30
You assume that "our prom" means "black prom". I assume it means "integrated prom". My assumption is based on the fact that there is no such thing as a "black prom" anymore.

Also: "Juniors are in charge of planning the prom each year and last year they decided to have just one dance the first integrated prom in 31 years in the rural Georgia county 150 miles south of Atlanta."

This does not read as "black juniors invited the white juniors to their dance" to me. It sounds like a collective effort to create one prom, and eliminate the two separate proms.



(edited by ges7184 on 6.5.03 1110)
asteroidboy
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#20 Posted on 6.5.03 1126.35
Reposted on: 6.5.10 1127.15
Thank God that whites finally have an exclusive event of their own. In Georgia.
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