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The 7 - Current Events & Politics - One of the First Things That Needs To Be Done After the War Register and log in to post!
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redsoxnation
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#1 Posted on 4.4.03 2243.21
Reposted on: 4.4.10 2244.03
Someone soon is going to have to start an investigation over the choppers the military is flying. Even before the war, there recently has been a deadly accident every few months. Now, during the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, the highest rate of casualties have been in copter crashes. Is there a mechanical problem with the Apache's and other copter's? Are the pilots trained properly? Is there a flaw in the designs? If so much time and attention gets spent on a Space Shuttle blowing up, a lot more needs to be done to find out what is consistently wrong with the helicopters.
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Jaguar
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#2 Posted on 4.4.03 2304.16
Reposted on: 4.4.10 2305.17
I haven't been following the news but I'll add this:

Anything that the Army puts in the air is probably ten years out of date. Most of the choppers they're using (troop transport and such) should have been grounded a few years ago. However, if these are Airforce or Navy jets/planes, then I have no idea why they're falling out of the sky, as they both have the budget to keep their air power up-to-date.

-Jag
Big Bad
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#3 Posted on 4.4.03 2329.16
Reposted on: 4.4.10 2334.29
I think that at least a few of these "crashes" may be copters that were shot out of the sky, and the military is trying spin control.
Lexus
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#4 Posted on 5.4.03 0010.25
Reposted on: 5.4.10 0016.12
I agree. That is all.
rockdotcom_2.0
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#5 Posted on 5.4.03 0843.52
Reposted on: 5.4.10 0844.45
The Military investigates every crash very thoroughly. Theres lots of factors that contribute to every crash. Weather, pilot error, mechanical failure, darkness etc, etc. Plus the military works their aircraft really hard. I mean these are fighting machines. Also, you have to remember that most military aircraft are maintained by teenagers and people under the age of 25. Thats not to say that we have a bunch of incompetent kids fucking around with Apaches and F-14s. For the most part Aviation guys do an outstanding job with what they have to do. My roomate is a Aviation Electrician on the USS Theodore Roosevelt and hes really dedicated to his job. But still its not like Delta or something where they have mechanics and technicians with Masters degrees in engineering and 25 years experience.
calvinh0560
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#6 Posted on 5.4.03 1117.05
Reposted on: 5.4.10 1119.27
I think the sand has a lot to do with most of these crashes. A bullet knocks a small hole it the side of one of these things. Normally it will still fly but factor in that now sand is going to get everywhere something bad happens. I mean remember almost everything we have in our arm forces was designed to work in Europe fighting the evil Russians.
Cerebus
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#7 Posted on 5.4.03 1318.20
Reposted on: 5.4.10 1321.27
I seem to remember 2 seperate crashes that were due to pilot error in the last year. These guys need more training is all.
Mr. Boffo
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#8 Posted on 5.4.03 1841.06
Reposted on: 5.4.10 1842.55

    Originally posted by Jaguar
    However, if these are Airforce or Navy jets/planes

This is off-topic, to be sure, but it's a thought I had while reading your post, Jag. Is there any difference between the Army, the Navy, and the Air Force anymore? Don't they all have planes, and helocopters, and ships, and whatnot?
Jaguar
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#9 Posted on 6.4.03 1354.00
Reposted on: 6.4.10 1355.36
Yes, they do. However, while the Navy and Airforce operate state-of-the-art machinery with all the current technology, the Army is for the most part stuck with equipment that's 10-25 years old. None of our armed forces should be using the same equipment that they were using in Vietnam.

-Jag

The Army's airpower is important, but for some reason they never seem to get the best equipment.
Grimis
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#10 Posted on 7.4.03 0619.08
Reposted on: 7.4.10 0619.33
Also remember that Clinton slashed the defense budget duriong his term. One of the first things to get cut was always machine maintenance.
Jaguar
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#11 Posted on 7.4.03 1227.32
Reposted on: 7.4.10 1227.59
I'm more inclined to blame this on the boys in the Pentagon who are the ones who make the decision on where the money goes. Also, the Army was flying around Iraq in their Vietnam-era Hueys during the first Gulf War, so it's not all Clinton.

-Jag
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#12 Posted on 7.4.03 1254.49
Reposted on: 7.4.10 1256.02
Well, they are flying some really old birds, which were supposed to be replaced by the Osprey- and as I am sure all of you remember, those things were dropping out of the sky like stones, so quite rightly they were shelved for design work.

Whether that is an example of a casualty of defense spending cuts, I can't say- but the next generation is out there, it just does not work right. Yeah, they may be old and less reliable than some of the newer equipment in the other branches, but it makes more sense to use what works over something that is great on the drawing board but has been a disaster in all real-world operations.
rockdotcom_2.0
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#13 Posted on 7.4.03 1517.51
Reposted on: 7.4.10 1517.51

    Originally posted by Jaguar
    Yes, they do. However, while the Navy and Airforce operate state-of-the-art machinery with all the current technology, the Army is for the most part stuck with equipment that's 10-25 years old. None of our armed forces should be using the same equipment that they were using in Vietnam.

    -Jag

    The Army's airpower is important, but for some reason they never seem to get the best equipment.




Since when are BlackHawks, Kiowas and Apaches out of date? These are three of the most advanced combat Helicopters in the world. Is there a better technology that someone out there has? And the Army is developing the Comanche helicopter also.

The Navy and Air force aircraft are just as "old" . The Air Force F-15, F-16, A-10, and B-52 have been around for 20 years or more. The Navy has been using the F-14 for almost 30 years. The newest aircraft in the Navy inventory is the F/A-18 "Super Hornet" which is just a larger version of the F-18 they have already had for 15 years.

People' the Military cant afford to get all new stuff every 10 years. Thats impossible. Every piece of gear the military uses has a long service life in it. And still we have the most advanced military the world has ever seen. Even if we are using "vietnam Era" gear no one has anything better.

Madame Manga
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#14 Posted on 7.4.03 1901.17
Reposted on: 7.4.10 1903.59
I'm no combat aviation expert, but Daddy was in the Air Force. ;-) This is how I understand the chopper problem, in a general way.

Helicopters are inherently slower and less stable than fixed-wing aircraft. The physics of a rotating wing are orders of magnitude more complex than the physics of a fixed wing.

In combat, choppers operate closer to the ground than fixed-wing aircraft. They are used in especially hazardous situations where a plane won't do, such as rescues. I.e., they are a lot easier to target. When a chopper crashes, it's usually a total loss, because it plummets straight to earth. That's not so true of airplanes, which can often glide down and keep the damage minor.

Even in ordinary chopper operation, the margin for error isn't great. That's design error, pilot error, wind shifts, what have you. Choppers are just not the same animal as fixed-wing craft. Expect that lopsided accident ratio to continue even as the technology improves.

MM
rockdotcom_2.0
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#15 Posted on 8.4.03 0356.22
Reposted on: 8.4.10 0359.01

    Originally posted by Madame Manga
    I'm no combat aviation expert, but Daddy was in the Air Force. ;-) This is how I understand the chopper problem, in a general way.

    Helicopters are inherently slower and less stable than fixed-wing aircraft. The physics of a rotating wing are orders of magnitude more complex than the physics of a fixed wing.

    In combat, choppers operate closer to the ground than fixed-wing aircraft. They are used in especially hazardous situations where a plane won't do, such as rescues. I.e., they are a lot easier to target. When a chopper crashes, it's usually a total loss, because it plummets straight to earth. That's not so true of airplanes, which can often glide down and keep the damage minor.

    Even in ordinary chopper operation, the margin for error isn't great. That's design error, pilot error, wind shifts, what have you. Choppers are just not the same animal as fixed-wing craft. Expect that lopsided accident ratio to continue even as the technology improves.

    MM




I forget where i read this but someone said that the diffrence between helicopters and and airplane is that an airplane "wants" to fly. the way its designed and built flight is a natural thing. where as a helicopter is the exact opposite, its doing everything it can NOT to fly. I thought that was funny.


Also read my sig for a little info on the Apache. I can assure you that the Navy doesnt have anything quite as cool as an Apache....
The Thrill
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#16 Posted on 8.4.03 0801.54
Reposted on: 8.4.10 0801.58
In his autobiography My American Journey, Colin Powell said that helicopters are notoriously finicky and tempramental machines. He advocated having more of them on hand during helicopter operations, to compensate for choppers that could go off-line (see Operation Desert One.)

That said...I went up in a bird one year during the 32d Brigade's Annual Training at Ft. McCoy. Damn, that ruled.
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