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The 7 - Current Events & Politics - Drop that burger and pray, or the terrorists will win!
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Jakegnosis
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#21 Posted on 28.3.03 2359.08
Reposted on: 29.3.10 0004.06
Michrome- That's some scary shit. Those are the kind of quotes that I'm not sure I needed to hear, but thanks, anyway.

drjayphd- I read in an article somewhere that none of them had, but it may have been mistaken. One or none, it's pretty fuckin' sad.

PalpatineW
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#22 Posted on 29.3.03 0753.40
Reposted on: 29.3.10 0759.01

    Originally posted by Jakegnosis
    Michrome- That's some scary shit. Those are the kind of quotes that I'm not sure I needed to hear, but thanks, anyway.

    drjayphd- I read in an article somewhere that none of them had, but it may have been mistaken. One or none, it's pretty fuckin' sad.




What's so frightening about people having a religion? Like it or not, a lot of these fellas, like Washington and Jefferson, believed in the Constitution because they believed it was consonant with God's will (or so it seems). And I like the way the Constitution worked out, so I'm not gonna quibble. Some people don't need, or want, or like religion, but for others, and at times throughout history, it has lent a positive influence. It's not all crusades and jihads.

That being said... what an absolutely useless resolution. I see Gephardt didn't vote, either. Wonder why.
Jakegnosis
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#23 Posted on 30.3.03 0018.24
Reposted on: 30.3.10 0019.24
There's nothing wrong with people having religion. There's something wrong with politicians bringing the Christian god into politics.
godking
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#24 Posted on 3.4.03 0010.16
Reposted on: 3.4.10 0011.21

    Because, in the end, the world will be a safer place when Saddam is gone, and everyone, Iraqis included, will be better off.


Keep on believing that. I'm sure the legion of brand-new terrorists this war creates will be a hundred times worse than anything Saddam Hussein, who was boxed in with no real weapons worth mentioning, could have done.
PalpatineW
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#25 Posted on 3.4.03 0713.38
Reposted on: 3.4.10 0720.11
    Originally posted by godking

      Because, in the end, the world will be a safer place when Saddam is gone, and everyone, Iraqis included, will be better off.


    Keep on believing that. I'm sure the legion of brand-new terrorists this war creates will be a hundred times worse than anything Saddam Hussein, who was boxed in with no real weapons worth mentioning, could have done.



I don't buy this argument. Because using that logic, we shouldn't go after any of these guys, as it will only make them angry. Besides, what Arab country did we invade to cause 9/11?

(edited by PalpatineW on 3.4.03 0814)
vsp
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#26 Posted on 3.4.03 0929.07
Reposted on: 3.4.10 0929.35

    Originally posted by PalpatineW
    I don't buy this argument. Because using that logic, we shouldn't go after any of these guys, as it will only make them angry. Besides, what Arab country did we invade to cause 9/11?


Saudi Arabia. At least from the perspective of Osama, who cited the US military presence in the Gulf as a direct threat to Islam in a 1998 fatwa, and has since acted accordingly.

Am I suggesting that the above justifies Osama's subsequent actions in any way? Of course not. But if the mere presence of US soldiers in the Gulf had Osama and his ilk upset, our sending a massive military force into a country that had nothing to do with 9/11, overthrowing its government by force and killing civilians in the process really ought to get their attention.

As far as instigation goes, this is like walking up to a wasps' nest and beating it with a Wiffle-Ball bat.
PalpatineW
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#27 Posted on 3.4.03 1720.49
Reposted on: 3.4.10 1723.19
Ah, you indulge my JR-like fondness for metaphors...

So you'd rather walk around hoping the bees don't sting you? Anyone with wasp experience knows that you need to get rid of the nest to get rid of the bees.
Nate The Snake
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#28 Posted on 3.4.03 2003.29
Reposted on: 3.4.10 2005.37

    Originally posted by PalpatineW
    Ah, you indulge my JR-like fondness for metaphors...

    So you'd rather walk around hoping the bees don't sting you? Anyone with wasp experience knows that you need to get rid of the nest to get rid of the bees.



And, ironically, you've just illustrated the entire reason why this whole war is pointless.

We were stung by bees. We're going after the wasps.
PalpatineW
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#29 Posted on 3.4.03 2315.24
Reposted on: 3.4.10 2316.06

    Originally posted by Nate The Snake

      Originally posted by PalpatineW
      Ah, you indulge my JR-like fondness for metaphors...

      So you'd rather walk around hoping the bees don't sting you? Anyone with wasp experience knows that you need to get rid of the nest to get rid of the bees.



    And, ironically, you've just illustrated the entire reason why this whole war is pointless.

    We were stung by bees. We're going after the wasps.



Stinging insects aside, do you think that if we killed bin Laden that terrorism would disappear? There is a huge, fertile breeding ground for this stuff, and it's fundamentalist Islam. It is sheltered by dictators. Armed by dictators. It's not going to go away until we show the people of the Middle East that another world is possible, one in which you don't get killed for saying the wrong thing, and one in which you shouldn't feel obliged to blow up Americans whose only sin was going to work that morning.
Lexus
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#30 Posted on 4.4.03 0023.02
Reposted on: 4.4.10 0029.02


Well, it certainly looks like a step in the right direction. Maybe if we'd been praying in schools, had the 10 commandments up in more courthouses, and praised God every Sunday, we could combat the evils of terrorism by religious fanatacism with our own!
godking
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#31 Posted on 4.4.03 0023.35
Reposted on: 4.4.10 0029.03
Stinging insects aside, do you think that if we killed bin Laden that terrorism would disappear? There is a huge, fertile breeding ground for this stuff, and it's fundamentalist Islam. It is sheltered by dictators. Armed by dictators. It's not going to go away until we show the people of the Middle East that another world is possible, one in which you don't get killed for saying the wrong thing, and one in which you shouldn't feel obliged to blow up Americans whose only sin was going to work that morning.

Yeah, and bombing the shit out of them isn't really the way to do it. You realize that before this whole axis of evil thing got started, Iran was well on its way to a secular, Westernized democracy? Then Iraq got attacked, and the clergy - the ones we want out of power, and whose power base was steadily diminishing - said "look, the Americans are evil, we told you so" and they suddenly gained reams of political influence again. And that's happening in every other Muslim nation in the world as well. The war in Iraq hasn't aided the cause of democratizing the Muslim world - it's set it back a hundredfold.

And again - attacking Iraq because you're worried about fundamentalism is idiotic, because Iraq is the most secular Muslim state in the Middle East and has been for decades - which is likely why none of the 9/11 terrorists were Iraqis. Attacking Iraq to "bring them democracy" and then promising to A) let big US corporations profit off the rebuilding efforts and B) put a retired US general in power rather than, say, an Iraqi, is especially pungent bullshit, and the average person can smell bullshit and hypocrisy a mile away.

The average Iraqi can hear your chant about "we can't have dictators" and point to a half-dozen that are directly supported by the United States right now (including the leader of Uzbekistan, whom in ten years is going to be the next Saddam in terms of brutality - he's already getting started on it), or how the US endorsed the attempted military coup against the popularly elected (and not particularly pro-US) president of Venezuela just last year. Why the hell do you think they're going to believe America this time, when all the same things were said twenty years ago, and then America turned around and put the thugs in power - the same ones you're trying to kill now?
Jakegnosis
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#32 Posted on 4.4.03 0036.56
Reposted on: 4.4.10 0042.24
Speaking of dictators, Mugabe publicly (and proudly) compared himself to Hitler a week or two ago.

Brrr.
Nate The Snake
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#33 Posted on 4.4.03 0439.39
Reposted on: 4.4.10 0443.47

    Originally posted by PalpatineW
    Stinging insects aside, do you think that if we killed bin Laden that terrorism would disappear? There is a huge, fertile breeding ground for this stuff, and it's fundamentalist Islam. It is sheltered by dictators. Armed by dictators. It's not going to go away until we show the people of the Middle East that another world is possible, one in which you don't get killed for saying the wrong thing, and one in which you shouldn't feel obliged to blow up Americans whose only sin was going to work that morning.


*eyeroll* No, I don't think killing Bin Laden will cause anything to disappear. I do, however, think Bin Laden should, perhaps, be slightly higher on our list of priorities, since he's, you know... one of the people responsible for the single largest terrorist attack in American history. He needs to be found, and tried, not just killed. Killing Bin Laden makes him a martyr. Bringing him to justice shows that we're civilized.

We're not going to enlighten the fundamentalists by dropping bombs on their neighbors (and political enemies). Right now all we're "showing" the people of the Middle East is how short our attention span is. We've shown that if you commit a horrible act of violence and hatred on our soil, we'll mount a huge search for you, give up, and go blow up someone you don't like. Huzzah.
PalpatineW
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#34 Posted on 4.4.03 0732.55
Reposted on: 4.4.10 0734.36
    Originally posted by Lexus


    Well, it certainly looks like a step in the right direction. Maybe if we'd been praying in schools, had the 10 commandments up in more courthouses, and praised God every Sunday, we could combat the evils of terrorism by religious fanatacism with our own!



I'll pretend you made a reasonable statement here and reply to it. My point is that many people in the Arab world are living in a very different world than you and I. Whereas you and I (I hope) couldn't fathom blowing ourselves up for our religion or political party, that sort of thing is par for the course over there. My point, which I think is a valid one, is that there is a culture of terrorism, and of despair, that needs to be changed. And while you imply that I am some manner of bigot who can't tolerate their religion, I never said anything to that effect. I said fundamentalist Islam was the problem - and it is. Is bin Laden killing us for free Slurpees?


    Originally Posted by Nate The Snake
    We're not going to enlighten the fundamentalists by dropping bombs on their neighbors (and political enemies). Right now all we're "showing" the people of the Middle East is how short our attention span is. We've shown that if you commit a horrible act of violence and hatred on our soil, we'll mount a huge search for you, give up, and go blow up someone you don't like. Huzzah.


I think when Hussein is gone, the Iraqi people are going to be a lot better off. Hopefully, this sets off a more fervent desire for freedom in neighboring Iran, and so forth. And give me some evidence that we've given up on al Qaeda. We captured their number three guy a matter of weeks ago.


    Originally Posted by godking
    Yeah, and bombing the shit out of them isn't really the way to do it


And this is probably why we are using precision bombs. If we were indiscriminately going after these people, then US soldiers would not be dying in car bomb explosions. Those cars would have been shot on sight.


    Originally Posted by godking
    Attacking Iraq to "bring them democracy" and then promising to A) let big US corporations profit off the rebuilding efforts and B) put a retired US general in power rather than, say, an Iraqi, is especially pungent bullshit, and the average person can smell bullshit and hypocrisy a mile away.



Average people must avoid you whenever possible, then. You seem to believe in some sort of magic spell, whereby we remove Saddam, immediately leave, and then, poof, a parliamentary democracy is in place. We've done this before, and successfully. See: Japan.


    Originally Posted by godking
    And again - attacking Iraq because you're worried about fundamentalism is idiotic, because Iraq is the most secular Muslim state in the Middle East and has been for decades - which is likely why none of the 9/11 terrorists were Iraqis


Fair enough. But has this stopped Hussein from making payments to religious terror? Has this stopped al Qaeda for from publicly supporting Hussein? He's a dangerous man, he's got the weapons, and it's likely he's willing to give them away. Hussein may not be a fundamentalist, but he is definitely a terrorist.


    Originally Posted by godking
    or how the US endorsed the attempted military coup against the popularly elected (and not particularly pro-US) president of Venezuela just last year.


Chavez is an ass, and he's taking his country into the toilet. And while you make it seem like his country loves him, but we don't, did you notice the general strike that seized the entirety of Venezuela? What does that say to you about how effective Hugo Chavez is?


    Originally Posted by godking
    Why the hell do you think they're going to believe America this time, when all the same things were said twenty years ago, and then America turned around and put the thugs in power - the same ones you're trying to kill now?


They will believe us because we're telling the truth. We will remove Hussein. We will give them, as soon as possible, a representative government of, by, and for the Iraqi people. Twenty years ago, no one was invading Iraq and promising to remove Hussein, so I don't know what you're talking about.




(edited by PalpatineW on 4.4.03 0837)
Nate The Snake
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#35 Posted on 4.4.03 1211.32
Reposted on: 4.4.10 1220.40

    Originally posted by PalpatineW
    I think when Hussein is gone, the Iraqi people are going to be a lot better off. Hopefully, this sets off a more fervent desire for freedom in neighboring Iran, and so forth.


I wish I could believe that when Saddam is out, things will be better in Iraq. Sadly, however, given our track record, I sincerely doubt it. One of the people we're looking at to lead after we're finished is a friggin' war criminal, one of the people in Saddam's government during the time he was gassing his own citizens.


    On "bombing the shit out of people"
    And this is probably why we are using precision bombs. If we were indiscriminately going after these people, then US soldiers would not be dying in car bomb explosions. Those cars would have been shot on sight.


A bomb can only be so precise, especially when Hussein's putting civilians in harm's way. Like it or not, innocent people are dying over there, and every single life lost is likely to inspire more acts of terroism. We're playing into their hands.


    On installing new governments
    We've done this before, and successfully. See: Japan.


That'd probably hold a bit more water if it weren't for the enormous cultural differences between Japan and Iraq, and for the weight of history since then. Yes, Japan was a success story. One that we've never come close to achieving since then. The chances of Iraq being the next Japan, or even being close to it, are astronomically slim.


    On why the Iraqis would believe us
    They will believe us because we're telling the truth. We will remove Hussein. We will give them, as soon as possible, a representative government of, by, and for the Iraqi people. Twenty years ago, no one was invading Iraq and promising to remove Hussein, so I don't know what you're talking about.


We may remove Hussein, but giving the Iraqis a democratic government is far, far from a set-in-stone fact at this point. It's a nice thing to say, and believe it if it makes you feel good, but I'll believe it when I see it.

And twenty years ago (closer to twenty-five, to be accurate) we declared Iraq to be a terrorist state and cut ties with them. We then flip-flopped on that because of their conflict with Iran, sold them chemical and biological weapons, helped them with their atomic weapons program, and gave them shitloads of money right up until the Gulf War.

I'd say the Iraqi people have plenty of reason to mistrust our motives. Especially since our motives have nothing to do with them at all.
godking
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#36 Posted on 4.4.03 1252.21
Reposted on: 4.4.10 1252.41
And this is probably why we are using precision bombs. If we were indiscriminately going after these people, then US soldiers would not be dying in car bomb explosions. Those cars would have been shot on sight.

...you mean, like when US troops shot up a bus full of Iraqi civilians last week?

As for "precision" bombs, the myth of those has been tremendously exposed at this point, so much so that the right wing is desperately trying to blame the misfires on Iraqi "hoaxes" - "they're trying to make us look bad by bombing themselves", that sort of thing.

You seem to believe in some sort of magic spell, whereby we remove Saddam, immediately leave, and then, poof, a parliamentary democracy is in place. We've done this before, and successfully. See: Japan.

There are a multitude of reasons why Iraq won't be Japan, most notably differing national reactions to overwhelming defeat and the fact that as a Muslim nation, Iraq is part of a larger community of likeminded nations, as compared to the solitary nature of Japan. Go read some books on postwar Japan, and it will quickly become evident that Iraq is not going to follow that model by any stretch of the imagination - governing Iraq as a foreign body will be difficult enough, but if you think an American will be able to do it, you're insane.

Fair enough. But has this stopped Hussein from making payments to religious terror?

Against the United States? Certainly. (And, for the record, Hussein's promises to Palestinian suicide bomber families have yet to be fulfilled in any instance.)

Has this stopped al Qaeda for from publicly supporting Hussein?

Al Qaeda's statement was a show of support for the Iraqi people, not Hussein - whom Bin Laden referred to as a "devil" and an "infidel" within the speech.

He's a dangerous man, he's got the weapons,

There is still no proof of this claim. The most recent reports of discovered mustard and cyanide agents haven't been confirmed, and even if they are, neither is any use for a terrorist attack - cyanide is simply worthless because it's only long-term tenable in concentrated form (the famous "suicide pills") and mustard gas, to be effective, requires a minimum payload of several tons - not exactly terrorist-friendly.

Chavez is an ass, and he's taking his country into the toilet. And while you make it seem like his country loves him, but we don't, did you notice the general strike that seized the entirety of Venezuela? What does that say to you about how effective Hugo Chavez is?

I don't really care if Chavez is effective or not. I'm not a Venezuelan. The point is that the United States colluded with people trying to remove a popularly elected leader from office by force. If Chavez is a useless dickhead (and he is, I agree with you), then he'll get turfed out in the next election. That's how democracy, which the United States is supposed to support, works, and when your country delberately helps to undermine it, the claims of "dictatorships are bad and that's why we're bringing democracy" come off as utter crap.

We will give them, as soon as possible, a representative government of, by, and for the Iraqi people.

By all accounts, the majority of them don't believe you. Get ready for rebellions against whichever poor bastard gets to administer Iraq.

Twenty years ago, no one was invading Iraq and promising to remove Hussein, so I don't know what you're talking about.

Twenty years ago (well, twenty-three) was when Saddam rose to power. The Reagan administration's financial and military aid to Saddam in 1980-81 was directly responsible for his gaining a stranglehold on political and military Iraq - despite many notable Iraqi exiles saying, "no, this guy's an animal, don't give him money and weapons, you idiots", but Saddam was anticommunist, so the Reaganites claimed it was "democratically feasible" to support him when he essentially dissolved the Iraqi parliament.
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