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The 7 - Current Events & Politics - Michael Moore
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The Masked Hungarian
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#61 Posted on 27.3.03 1951.07
Reposted on: 27.3.10 1953.13
"Sure we have done some good things in our history, but we have done some off-the-chart evil things as well. What pisses me off is when we point the "holier than thou" finger at everyone else when we have our own skeletons in our closet... as if we have some monopoly on morality"


Ok I came up with slavery. That's one wrong that ended 150 years ago.
PalpatineW
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#62 Posted on 27.3.03 2100.09
Reposted on: 27.3.10 2103.36

    Originally Posted by Leroy

    Sure we have done some good things in our history, but we have done some off-the-chart evil things as well. What pisses me off is when we point the "holier than thou" finger at everyone else when we have our own skeletons in our closet... as if we have some monopoly on morality.



I'm not trying to say that at all. All I'm saying is that, sure, we've done bad things in the past. I don't excuse them. But at the end of the day, I firmly believe that the good the United States has done outweighs the bad. On balance, we are a force for good.


    Originally Posted by Leroy

    And I do not feel any sense of partiotism or pride in my country for what we are doing in Iraq right now... I am ashamed and embarrassed that I live in the most powerful country in history, and we still cannot find another way to solve our problems. I didn't like it with Clinton, and I sure as hell don't like it now.



I see what you're saying here, but in my opinion it's hard to find any other way when you're dealing with a dictator. Diplomacy just doesn't work with these people. We're trying it with Jong Il, we've tried it before, and he's still largely ignoring us.


    Originally Posted by Leroy

    And I am one of the 270 million plus people who are paying for this war while Cheney's friends at Halliburton are standing to make millions, if not billions.



I'm inclined to agree with you here. The only thing that stops me is the realization that somebody has to fix the Iraqi oil fields, even if we give 99% back to the Iraqis, and you and I sure can't do it. I'd call it fair if they use some Iraqi oil money to fund the war, then let Haliburton run the fields for Iraq until Iraq can get a decent oil company running or something like that.


    Originally Posted by Leroy
    No matter which way you try to spin it... the people who are standing to benefit the most are not the tax payers in this country or the people living in Iraq. It's Bush and friends... and that's messed up.


I can't agree there. Sure, Haliburton benefits. But you can't deny (at least I can't) that so do the Iraqis. Yes, civlians will die. But so many fewer will die in this war than if they tried to revolt against Saddam (again). How many thousands died last time we encouraged them to revolt without our help? Too many.
calvinh0560
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#63 Posted on 28.3.03 0034.42
Reposted on: 28.3.10 0035.04


    Sure we have done some good things in our history, but we have done some off-the-chart evil things as well. What pisses me off is when we point the "holier than thou" finger at everyone else when we have our own skeletons in our closet... as if we have some monopoly on morality.


Can you please name one nation that while it was the most powerful in the world do as much good as we have and has done less "evil things" than us. I am sure it will take some time. Lets face it America does has the monopoly on morality when you compair it to any other Superpower in the HISTORY of this world. Its seem to me that you want us to be perfect which is not possible.
Stefonics
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#64 Posted on 28.3.03 0123.46
Reposted on: 28.3.10 0127.01

    Originally posted by The Masked Hungarian
    Ok I came up with slavery. That's one wrong that ended 150 years ago.

And it's sad as hell that you, a decently educated man (I'm assuming that because you know how to turn on a computer and type that you are decently educated) can dismiss a moral injustice such as slavery in the span of two sentences. This conversation would have been better off without that little "insight", as it opens up a completely different can of worms.
The problem with the American system of "justice" is that we attempt to police the globe while either putting problems at home on the back burner or just flat out ignoring them. The "Double V" campaign of World War II springs to mind immediately. During World War II, our main goal was to eliminate the world of the oppressive government spearheaded by the Nazis. This government was considered to be a threat to worldwide freedom. So we did it. But the problem was that we totally ignored the injustices that were happening at home, namely discrimination and outright racism. Minorities were fighting for the side of all that is good and right with the world to defeat the evil Axis Powers, yet when they returned home, these men were still treated unfairly. And when they did begin to rise up, two of their most prominant leaders were gunned down in cold blood. Then, when the shit really hit the fan with the Black Panthers, people were wondering why they were so angry... it's just frustrating.
But as a whole, I would have to agree that America has been a relatively good example for upstart democratic nations to follow. But we're not anywhere close to what we could be.
Grimis
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#65 Posted on 28.3.03 0607.22
Reposted on: 28.3.10 0609.56
So we're going to just bitch and moan about things that happened 30+ years ago as a reason not to eliminate the Hussein government?
MoeGates
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#66 Posted on 28.3.03 0951.36
Reposted on: 28.3.10 0954.23
During World War II, our main goal was to eliminate the world of the oppressive government spearheaded by the Nazis. This government was considered to be a threat to worldwide freedom. So we did it. But the problem was that we totally ignored the injustices that were happening at home, namely discrimination and outright racism. Minorities were fighting for the side of all that is good and right with the world to defeat the evil Axis Powers, yet when they returned home, these men were still treated unfairly.

On the flip side though, if it weren't for WWII and fighting the Nazis, that stuff would have gone on a lot longer than it did. That was really the point in history where the idea of racism as something that was good and natural and proper for the USA began to crumble.

I guess my point is that I don't think we came home and ignored it, I think we came home with the spark of the idea that it was wrong, and the beginnings of a significant change in the attitude of mainstream America toward these issues. Did stuff then change overnight? Of course not. But it did end up changing, and think in large part due the particular circumstances surrounding WWII.
DMC
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#67 Posted on 28.3.03 1203.21
Reposted on: 28.3.10 1213.08
"On the flip side though, if it weren't for WWII and fighting the Nazis, that stuff would have gone on a lot longer than it did. That was really the point in history where the idea of racism as something that was good and natural and proper for the USA began to crumble.

I guess my point is that I don't think we came home and ignored it, I think we came home with the spark of the idea that it was wrong, and the beginnings of a significant change in the attitude of mainstream America toward these issues. Did stuff then change overnight? Of course not. But it did end up changing, and think in large part due the particular circumstances surrounding WWII."

This is an excellent point and something I think some historians, if not many, fail to realize about racial change in America and the civil rights movement of the 50s and 60s. I don't often see the struggle against Nazism brought up as often as it should as an explanation for the civil rights movement. You usually hear about military integration of the 50 and such under Truman, and then Brown v. Board of Education supposedly came out of nowhere. But I think both of these, at least in part, rest upon our struggle against the racist views during World War II. You really can never over-estimate the effect that the war had for the rest of 20th century U.S. history.

I now wonder how many civil rights leaders and workers in the early years evoked Nazism, at least in a proper rhetorical way.

DMC
The Masked Hungarian
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#68 Posted on 28.3.03 1341.50
Reposted on: 28.3.10 1345.30
KidBrooklyn says, "And it's sad as hell that you, a decently educated man (I'm assuming that because you know how to turn on a computer and type that you are decently educated) can dismiss a moral injustice such as slavery in the span of two sentences. This conversation would have been better off without that little "insight", as it opens up a completely different can of worms."


Woah relax buddy. It's not a question of dismissing slavery, im merely responding to the statement that America has done some off the chart evil things. I guess you didn't understand my point. Slavery is the ONLY off the chart evil thing America has ever done. I'm not dismissing it, im ACKNOWLEDGING it. Does this country have warts, definitely. But like many other people have said no other super power in history has been as fair as we are.
The Vile1
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#69 Posted on 28.3.03 2316.06
Reposted on: 28.3.10 2317.17
Man this thread got way off topic a while ago...
Whitebacon
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#70 Posted on 28.3.03 2338.52
Reposted on: 28.3.10 2340.37

    Originally posted by The Masked Hungarian
    KidBrooklyn says, "And it's sad as hell that you, a decently educated man (I'm assuming that because you know how to turn on a computer and type that you are decently educated) can dismiss a moral injustice such as slavery in the span of two sentences. This conversation would have been better off without that little "insight", as it opens up a completely different can of worms."


    Woah relax buddy. It's not a question of dismissing slavery, im merely responding to the statement that America has done some off the chart evil things. I guess you didn't understand my point. Slavery is the ONLY off the chart evil thing America has ever done. I'm not dismissing it, im ACKNOWLEDGING it. Does this country have warts, definitely. But like many other people have said no other super power in history has been as fair as we are.




What about the Japanese "internment" camps in WWII?
ThreepMe
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#71 Posted on 29.3.03 0527.38
Reposted on: 29.3.10 0528.27

    Originally posted by PalpatineW
      Originally posted by ThreepMe
      http://www.wage-slave.org/scorecard.html


      Fictious...Funny how no one has argured that since it was posted that the production facilities were bogus.

      Why is it that some people seem to foget that the government has made a career out of lieing?

      Hell, they have been doing it since they stole the land from the Native Americans. And NOW people are believing that the Bush Admin will suddenly start telling the truth?

      Little naive don't you think?



    Naive is the person who judges this country based solely on what its done wrong, when the record of what its done right is far longer. Naive is your conspiratorial attitude towards the government, as apparently it only applies to Republicans. Naive is re-posting that asinine link.

    If you paid any attention at all to this 24/7 cable news converage, you'd realize that all manner of things get reported which are later proven false. Witness yesterday, when we were told that 1,000 armored vehicles were bearing down on our troops. This morning I've learned they were apparently pick-up trucks, and now we're not even sure where they're going.

    Why is it that you forget that the United States has made a career out of preserving your freedom?

    (edited by PalpatineW on 27.3.03 1749)



When did I say I judged this country? If I had to I'd say that this country is great...It's Bush and his Administration that is crap.

And those idiots are a far cry from being this country.

Applies only to Republicans? Naive is thinking that I give 2 craps about "Republicans" or "Democrats." My political agenda has nothing to do with any political organization.

Bad ideas are bad ideas regardless of how you fill out your ballot.

And BTW, the report of the bogus chemical plant wasn't Wolf Blitzer, it was U.S. Officials who were at first saying they did, then they go, "Whoops, we messed up! Sorry about that!" Don't you think that if U.S. Officials are going to open their mouth that maybe, just maybe, they should know what they hell they are talking about?

And how many times are we going to allow them to take back statements? It's one thing to say, "1000 armor units incoming...Nope, just some trucks," and saying, "Iraq has weapons...Look here they are at this plant!...Oh, no they're not...Not even a factory...Ooops."

I mean, one is an Intelligence mistake...the other is the freaking reason we are going to war. And that makes a world of difference.

American may have saved my freedom with one hand, but they are lieing to me with the other.

And tell me how this is protecting my Right to Peacful Assembly?

ANTI-WAR PROTEST
Earlier in the day, police arrested 75 polite yet determined protesters -- including three in wheelchairs and a dozen in religious habits -- after they refused to leave the Federal Building where they blocked doors.

The mass arrest at the Golden Gate Avenue entrance to the building followed an hourlong interfaith peace rally and sing-along by Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Quakers and Buddhists.

Sister Bernie Galvin told the crowd that "nonviolent civil disobedience is the most powerful means for bringing about change."

With that, many of the demonstrators plopped down in front of the building's entrance, where a dozen cops waited with hand restraints, and sang "We Shall Overcome" and "Ain't Gonna Study War No More."

Two other entrances to the building remained open during the demonstration, and many people ventured through them to pick up their income tax forms after acknowledging the protesters outside.

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2003/03/29/PROTEST.TMP

Those pesky Rabbis, Priests, and Buddhists...They are such rabble makers...
PalpatineW
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#72 Posted on 29.3.03 0740.47
Reposted on: 29.3.10 0742.26
To your first point, about the chemicals, just because they were wrong about one factory doesn't mean they're wrong about Hussein having them. They could be elsewhere.

To your second point, I don't think it's kosher to block the entrance to a federal building.
ThreepMe
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#73 Posted on 29.3.03 1214.27
Reposted on: 29.3.10 1221.21
Yeah, and they were also wrong about the Aluminum Tubes that they thought were for a nuclear reactor.

And to clarify, it's not "block the entrance" it's block one of 3 entrances. And I'm glad you don't THINK it's kosher, but there is still a RIGHT TO PEACEFULL ASSEMBLY.

One person's perspective on what is kosher neither grants nor takes away that right.

But I guess you would know more about kosher than a bunch of Rabbis.
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#74 Posted on 29.3.03 2039.00
Reposted on: 29.3.10 2050.13

    Originally posted by ThreepMe
    Yeah, and they were also wrong about the Aluminum Tubes that they thought were for a nuclear reactor.

    And to clarify, it's not "block the entrance" it's block one of 3 entrances. And I'm glad you don't THINK it's kosher, but there is still a RIGHT TO PEACEFULL ASSEMBLY.

    One person's perspective on what is kosher neither grants nor takes away that right.

    But I guess you would know more about kosher than a bunch of Rabbis.



You still can't block entrances. For one thing, it's a potential fire hazard.
PalpatineW
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#75 Posted on 30.3.03 0049.16
Reposted on: 30.3.10 0053.52

    Originally posted by MoeGates
    I love how the crowd boos Michael Moore, and then gives a standing ovation (and the damn BEST DIRECTOR AWARD) to child rapist Roman Polanski. Classy move.

    I couldn't believe that either. Made me want to throw up. I don't care if the guy made the best film since CItizen Kane, you simply don't applaud a guy that drugged and sodomized a 13-year old girl. One of life's pretty simple rules. And yet one more reason to hate France.

    I was pissed Eminem wasn't there. I would have paid money to see him get up on stage and make a speech right there in front of Barbra Steisand.





The Smoking Gun has some grand jury testimomy up of the trial. It's a bit graphic, and definitely unsettling. I had no idea the alleged rape occured at Jack Nicholson's house. What the fuck was he thinking? "Oh, Roman, yeah, you need some place to photograph underaged girls? Sure, come on over."

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/polanskicover1.html
Zeruel
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#76 Posted on 4.4.03 1824.44
Reposted on: 4.4.10 1825.28
in a somewhat related note, my store's owner, Mr. Ludwig who is an army vet refuses to buy Bowling for Columbine for our video store because of Moore's speach.

yeah boss, give blockbuster extra revenue, that'll learn him...


sigh...guess i'll just have to go somewhere else and buy it, i had him order me a copy so i can get the dealer price, guess i'm SOL on that now

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