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The 7 - Current Events & Politics - Do we really want these people making decisions for us?
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eviljonhunt81
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#1 Posted on 5.3.03 1923.44
Reposted on: 5.3.10 1924.02
an article about two lawmakers walking out of the chaplain service.

Now, I understand that it says that congressmen often miss the session, and I can't blame them, but that does not apply here. Both of them attended and then left, and is walking out of a sermon an "act of patriotism?"

"Mohammed is not my God."

Nor is he any muslim's.

Shouldn't there be some way to test politicians to make sure they have some idea what they're talking about?
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Grimis
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#2 Posted on 5.3.03 1957.37
Reposted on: 5.3.10 1959.02
Ah, more stupid people doing stupid things to make everybody look bad. Geesh...
Cerebus
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#3 Posted on 6.3.03 1325.51
Reposted on: 6.3.10 1329.06
"They're unable to distinguish between Islam as religion and way of life, and bad Muslims," said Joban, who has also given the opening prayer to the Senate. "They are easily able to distinguish between Christianity and bad Christians."

This is untrue, how can you say that there are good and bad sides of christianity when you are a muslim? Don't they consider ALL christians or ANYONE of ANY other faith to be bad for not following thier religion.

Besides, why are they stupid for having thier own set of beliefs? You know SOMEONE out there is saying "Good for you, I'm voting for YOU when the time comes."

Grimis
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#4 Posted on 6.3.03 1342.19
Reposted on: 6.3.10 1347.19
I have lots of beliefs, but that does not mean I act on them. The last time I saw our Coutny Executive I wanted to punch her in the face, but I didn't. I may be a Conservative, but I'm pretty liberatrian on this one. Live and let live. This is not the kind of fight you want to use political capital over.
drjayphd
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#5 Posted on 6.3.03 1405.09
Reposted on: 6.3.10 1412.15

    Originally posted by eviljonhunt81
    Now, I understand that it says that congressmen often miss the session, and I can't blame them, but that does not apply here. Both of them attended and then left, and is walking out of a sermon an "act of patriotism?"

    "Mohammed is not my God."

    Nor is he any muslim's.

    Shouldn't there be some way to test politicians to make sure they have some idea what they're talking about?



I think you're missing the point, Cerebus. It's not a matter of opinion... Muhammad is not God in Islam. He's on the same level as Jesus and Abraham--a prophet. If they don't know this, it's not because they have their own ideas about Islam, it's that they have NO idea about Islam. There's a difference between differing opinions and ignorance.

That said, this is one minor incident in their careers... probably not enough to swing an election, but it sure as hell doesn't reflect well on their characters.
MoeGates
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#6 Posted on 6.3.03 1420.53
Reposted on: 6.3.10 1426.41
Don't they consider ALL christians or ANYONE of ANY other faith to be bad for not following thier religion.

Well sure, the same way the Pope believes that every non-Catholic is going to burn in Hell for all eternity. The same way that Pat Robertson believes anyone of any other faith to be bad for not following their religion (although I'd walk out of a room if Pat Robertson gave a speech).

Now, there are plenty of Catholics and Protestants who don't believe this, or more likely, believe this but don't let it affect their everyday lives. It's the same thing with Islam. Don't confuse the Wahabi sect of Islam (an absolutely horrid and evil thing in my opinion, comparable the Inquisitors) - which is what Bin Laden, the Saudis, and all those other "jihad against the infidels" people practice - with the 85% of Muslims who don't belong to this sect.

Corajudo
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#7 Posted on 6.3.03 1503.40
Reposted on: 6.3.10 1505.32

    Originally posted by MoeGates


    Well sure, the same way the Pope believes that every non-Catholic is going to burn in Hell for all eternity. The same way that Pat Robertson believes anyone of any other faith to be bad for not following their religion (although I'd walk out of a room if Pat Robertson gave a speech).



In no way, shape or form does the Pope believe that every non-Catholic will burn in hell. This is absolutely not a part of Catholic dogma or doctrine. Many fundamentalist Christians, on the other hand, feel that Catholics will burn in hell.
MoeGates
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#8 Posted on 6.3.03 1625.32
Reposted on: 6.3.10 1629.08
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a12.htm#1034

This is the Vatican's website on the subject of the Church's teachings on hell. An except:

The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."617 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

So who dies in a state of Mortal Sin? Well, after an hour or so of digging around both the Vatican's website, and Catholic.com, I still can't really figure it out (and I was a religions major). Catholic.com also this this interesting quote (except: Thus the issue that some will go to hell is decided, but the issue of who in particular will go to hell is undecided).

But I always thought that since

a) willfully turning your back on the Church (or at least Jesus) is a mortal sin and

b) That pretty much covers all non-Catholics that have been exposed to Catholicism, and

c) the only way to get rid of a mortal sin is to confess, and

d) non-Catholics don't do that, so

e) non-Catholics that have been exposed to Catholicism die in a state of Mortal Sin, and

f) dying in a state of Mortal Sin means you go to hell, that

g) all non-Catholics go to hell.

Where's the flaw in this?
Corajudo
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#9 Posted on 6.3.03 1731.29
Reposted on: 6.3.10 1737.17
I would like to apologize in advance for the length, but it's kind of a difficult subject.

Moe--The short answer is that no one knows who goes to heaven (according to the Catholic church). You are correct in that the church teaches that anyone who is in a state of mortal sin (as defined by willfully turning one's back on God) will go to hell. The problem is defining what that means.

Vatican 2's documents said that (and this my understanding/translation) anyone who truly seeks to find God and redemption through God is pleasing to God and can find this redemption. So, a non-Catholic can receive salvation.

As far as someone who has been exposed to Catholicism turning their back on the Church, my understanding is that this only applies to people who truly understand the teachings of the Church (the catechism, dogma, doctrine, etc.). So, it's not for just anyone who has come into contact with the denomination and is more than just exposure.

I remember a quote from a Pope (I believe it was Paul VI, but I might be wrong). When he was asked if he was going to go to heaven or not, he responded, 'I sure hope so.'

Lastly, I just want to point out that I'm trying to give the moderate, mainstream Catholic viewpoint. You will find extremists lined up on both sides, of course.

And, for more information, you can go to catholic.com then click on ‘salvation’ (it’s on the left hand side, below library) and then on ‘salvation outside the church’. I’d link directly, but it gives an error message unless you enter through the home page. A condensed excerpt follows:

"The same Fathers who declare the normative necessity of being Catholic also declare the possibility of salvation for some who are not Catholics...

"...The Fathers likewise affirm the possibility of salvation for those who lived before Christ and who were not part of Israel, the Old Testament Church.

"However, for those who knowingly and deliberately (that is, not out of innocent ignorance) commit the sins of heresy (rejecting divinely revealed doctrine) or schism (separating from the Catholic Church and/or joining a schismatic church), no salvation would be possible until they repented and returned to live in Catholic unity."
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