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The 7 - Current Events & Politics - Another day in OlFuzzyBastard's America
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OlFuzzyBastard
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#1 Posted on 5.3.03 1522.28
Reposted on: 5.3.10 1524.33
Click Here (msnbc.com)
Promote this thread!
Grimis
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#2 Posted on 5.3.03 1530.15
Reposted on: 5.3.10 1533.57
Technically, the mall does have the right to ask them to leave private property. But jesus christ have some common sense people. Instead of leatting the two people wear their shirts without harm now you've got hundreds and thousands of them to deal with. Swift thinking...

(edited by Grimis on 5.3.03 1630)
Bizzle Izzle
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#3 Posted on 5.3.03 1550.56
Reposted on: 5.3.10 1552.13

And this has what to do with John Ashcroft? Maybe this has something to do with law enforcement? From a law enforcement angle, the cops were doing their jobs. The mall said these assclowns are trespassing, we need you to remove/arrest them. And the cops did it. Maybe you don't like the Malls politics? Well, I guess it's private property so what you think doesn't matter to them. How can a mall 'censor' anyone? It's their mall, you don't like it, don't shop there.
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#4 Posted on 5.3.03 1556.23
Reposted on: 5.3.10 1559.02
I think Fuzz just likes reaching for straws. Part of me thinks he HOPES all of the evil he really believes about Ashcroft actually happens, because then he would have something legit to complain about.

On this issue, though, the mall was 100% in the right. If I saw two people like that in the mall I WOULD confront them. "Let the inspectors work" indeed... let them work on what?!?!

The mall has every right to enforce "peace in the mall," and that certainly is a firey issue. It would goad me into a confrontation, and I know I am not alone there.

Edit- hell, I got into an argument today with a group of HIGH SCHOOL KIDS today who were out "protesting" on the corner of the street. I felt pretty vindicated when their arguments amounted to nothing more than "war is bad." Of course they had no better solution, nor did they have an answer about Saddaam's genocide, or his potential link to terrorism, or why it was OK for us to go to Kosovo and not Iraq- nor did any of them really have any idea why were were talking about going to war at all.

I love protesters... and they certainly love attention. Too bad most of them are clueless when confronted. Confront your local protestors today! If anything, it is good for a laugh...

(edited by Pool-Boy on 5.3.03 1400)
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#5 Posted on 5.3.03 1736.13
Reposted on: 5.3.10 1737.44
The mall might have been stupid here, but the bottom line (for me) is that the mall is private property, just as much as your house or your church is.

The state of New York, however, has, I believe, ruled to the contrary in the past, declaring that shopping malls are "the village greens of today." Be interesting to see how this plays out.

Because where do you draw the line? None of us here are likely to mind some silly hippie wearing a "Blix Rules" T-shirt, but what happens when Joe Klansman wears a shirt saying "Lynch the Darkies?"
drjayphd
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#6 Posted on 5.3.03 1756.38
Reposted on: 5.3.10 1759.02
Does the mall have the right to toss them? Yes. Should they have done so? I'm not convinced. The story doesn't say why they caused enough of a disturbance to get thrown out. Were they simply wearing the shirts and got shit from people for the message? Or were they prostletyzing against Bush? If they weren't doing anything more than wearing the shirts, then there's no reason for them to get thrown out. The mall has the right to do this, but they abused it, as far as I can see from this story. I'd need to know more of what they did.

And no, I don't see the link to Ashcroft, either. Just people being anal about free expression.
Grimis
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#7 Posted on 5.3.03 2002.02
Reposted on: 5.3.10 2005.11

    Originally posted by drjayphd
    And no, I don't see the link to Ashcroft, either.

Ashcroft is the new "the man holdin' me down" for the Libs...
cranlsn
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#8 Posted on 5.3.03 2138.58
Reposted on: 5.3.10 2139.40
I saw this story earlier, although not the protesters coming back the next day. That adds a little something...

As for the guy and his son...no they shouldn't have been asked to leave...it sounds as if there wasn't much of a disturbance other than the employee who reported them. Do I agree with them no...but was their sitaution handled poorly? Yes, definitely.

As for the protestors coming back, fine. Eating, lunch? Check. O.K. with that too. Getting vocal and protesting in the mall? Nope...seeya...buh-bye. Same goes for the vet that shoved them by the way. (As satisfying as that must have been for him...sorry it just isn't allowed.)

The mall itself is private property, and they are well within their rights to ask that an "organized" protest take it outside so to speak.

I hate these kind of stories, because the knee-jerk reaction goes along the lines of "See! Their all fascists!", etc...

The mall did the right thing dropping the trespassing charges against the man, if their smart they'll pretty much ignore any further "protests" unless they get out of hand.

Pool-Boy is right on when he talked about some of these protesters whose only stand is "Bush is bad", without any other feasible solution being suggested.

We had protestors out in Wisconsin today, including some high school students who skipped out to have a "Peace March". When they asked the high school students why they were against a war with Iraq, one actually said "I don't know". Yikes.

Some of the college students protesting were against it on the grounds that money going to the war effort could be used to make their tuition more affordable instead.

Wow. With arguments like these how could you NOT be against a war??

Enojado Viento
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#9 Posted on 5.3.03 2206.44
Reposted on: 5.3.10 2209.03
I'm sorry, does one have to have a Fourteen Points in place for postwar Iraq in order to protest? Fuck, I musta missed that memo.Bad enough that being opposed to war means I have to catch the flak of idiot actors and vacant shovelheaded college students, but now I have to solve the world's problems before I can be allowed to take a stand, obviously.

Everyone should protest a war, because if going to war is the only option, we fucked up. War should not be an option when dealing with other nations. It's not a good thing and it's not going be a cakewalk. If anyone has such a hard-on for war and thinks its so damn cool. . .by all means, get a rifle and get your ass to Iraq.

I'm against it basically because its a waste of soldiers, there's no stable government we could put in afterwards, and it pretty much guarantees more flyovers of the good old US of A by god-fearing radical Moslems with no intention of landing. I'd like enlightened solutions for complex geopolitical issues instead of "bomb all ragheads," if you please.

Why not just contain the bastard like we did with the Soviets for 50 years? You're telling me that putting pressure on a power that controlled roughly half the world would work but putting the squeeze on one country roughly the size of California wouldn't?

And as for the college students wanting lower tuition, well, why not? You're telling me the people prosecuting the case for war have humanitarian aims?

But uhm. . .what DOES this have to do with Ashcroft? It seems like an open case of whiny jerkoff protesters to me who want to stir shit up in a mall, which seems about as good a place for rational thought as a circumcision booth in Baghdad.



(edited by Enojado Viento on 5.3.03 2008)
cranlsn
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#10 Posted on 5.3.03 2248.10
Reposted on: 5.3.10 2250.28
OK, fine....this is why I try to avoid the politics forum...it just pisses me off.

At what point did I indicate that I have a "hard-on for war" or want to "bomb all ragheads"? Be against the war all you want...it's part of what is being fought for.

But to have no valid reason in mind is just vapid. You at least laid out a couple of points. Ones I disagree with, mind you, but points none-the-less. By your logic, if you can be against the war for no reason, other than being against it, you should be able to be "for war" for no reason other than being "for it". That's asinine.

A lot of these protesters are doing nothing but protesting because it's "cool".

At 34, with two kids, and no military experience I'm a little long in the tooth to "get my ass to Iraq", but if we still had a draft I'd have no problem serving my country. I made the decision not to go into the military based on my own problems with authority...I'd not have made the best addition to the force. I have a brother-in-law, most likely headed for the Gulf. I'm not thrilled about it, and I worry about him a lot. I support our armed forces though, and think that this is a necessary process to insure America's safety.

And as for this war guaranteeing more attacks...you think that ignoring the forces that supply the terrorists with weapons will make them stop? Burying our heads in the sand, singing "Give peace a chance", will make them stop?

I agree, if it comes to war that something was fucked up. I just don't believe that it was America that fucked up. Our hand as a nation has been forced by many outside influences.
Enojado Viento
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#11 Posted on 5.3.03 2311.04
Reposted on: 5.3.10 2314.57
I wouldn't say it's "Outside" influences, exactly that forced our hands.

Jefferson beleived democracy emplyed "enlightened self interest" to guide its hand in affairs foreign and dometic. I'm not quite sure us going to settle a score and get some oil is going to help, when a containment strategy will work just as well.

True, it does mean you have a huge military sitting around on their asses in the desert, but it's a less risky proposition than trying to nursemaid Iraq into a democracy it can't possibly support. Iraq was a hodgepodge country thrown together in the wake of WWI, drawn without regard to history or population--this is just how the lines got drawn. France got Syria, Britain got Iraq, then dumped it on Faisal. Ever since then it's been tenuously hanging on to itself and trying to keep from coming apart. No one has been able to keep the country together except by force or threat of force--you have too many different populations vying for control. The only opposition movement is the INC and they're a hodpodge of fundamentalist Moslems and Marxists. THESE are a valid replacement for Hussein?

I don't feel like the blood of US soldiers is worth .99 at the pump and trying to foist democracy on a people that are too divided for it to ever work. I DO feel like a strong military presence there will either collpase the murderous thugs in Iraq from within or force their hands into making a move first, and THERE'S your case for war with a bow on it.

So what's the alternative? I don't advocate "hiding our heads in the sand and giving peace a chance." That's part of the problem. It's not a "make war or nothing question." Both sides in this argument--the left and the right--think in absolutes and this, I think, is a little more inolved than that.

Do I think that not going to war will guarantee no more attacks? No. Please, I'm not that naive. I think terrorism will fall the day we take the gloves off our foreign intelligence operations and start following the money. Cut of the money and there's very little they can do to us on the scale of 9/11. International terrorism takes money, and with their monetary supply choked off, it's hard as hell to pay for flying lessons.

Problem is, I don't see that happening with a President in office who owes most of his business success to being bailed out by the same Saudis who bought off Al Qaeda in 1996. Once he gets his foot off the necks of our law enforcement officals, then mi amigo, you'll see terrorism start to wither on the vine.


(edited by Enojado Viento on 5.3.03 2112)

(edited by Enojado Viento on 5.3.03 2113)
Grimis
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#12 Posted on 6.3.03 0617.33
Reposted on: 6.3.10 0618.04
    Originally posted by Enojado Viento
    but now I have to solve the world's problems before I can be allowed to take a stand, obviously.

I'm not relaly concerned with people having a well thought out solution. My problem is with these jackasses that are protesting the war and don't know why they're against it.


    Originally posted by Enojado Viento
    War should not be an option when dealing with other nations.

Huh? I had to read that twice just to make sure that I actually read it. Oh well, I guess next time countries getting too big for their brithces and start threatening the peace and stability of their region and of the major powers in the region that they just talk it over. Worked at Munich and it worked when Hitler invaded France and Russia.


    Originally posted by Enojado Viento
    I'd like enlightened solutions for complex geopolitical issues instead of "bomb all ragheads," if you please.

Blindly accusing people of racism is the last resort of a defeated argument. Nobody in the mainstream makes statements like this. Besides, even if there was an "enlightened solution" that would work, Saddam Husssein has, and this is important, rebuffed, rubuked and ignored all U.N. resolutions regarding his situation and is not cooperating with inspectors regardless of the dog and pony show going on concerning the Al Samoud missiles.

I used to be againts this war. I support it, but still with reservations. But it has become apparent that Peace is not an option.


(edited by Grimis on 6.3.03 0718)
Enojado Viento
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#13 Posted on 6.3.03 0859.57
Reposted on: 6.3.10 0901.30
Grimis, the "Saddam=Hitler" comparison doesn't work. Saddam's not expansionist. And by 12 years time Hitler had most of Europe under his boot heel.

And no, war should not be an option. It should be a last resort. Saddam hasn't made a move yet. In 1991, he did--he invaded Kuwait. If we wait for him to do something, our case for war is made and we're right there to do something about it. If we can't blockade one counry until they panic or collapse, we're doing something wrong.

I agree with you, he's probably fooling the inspectors. But why not add more inspectors so that he's so busy fooling them that any significant work on weapons is delayed? Bottled up in his own country, he can't do both, or at least he can't do both for long. The inspectors keep him off-balance and we blockade. Seems the easiest solution. People don't make good decisions when there's a loaded gun pointed at their temple

I'm only opposed to war in the sense that it's unneccesary, and there's no way we can make Iraq work without either making it worse or starting another war immediately afterward, for example between Turkey and a newly-created Kurdistan. I don't see any reason why we should make ourselves the bad guy and foot the bill for a huge military campaign if we can possibly make it work in our favour if we exercise a little patience.

Update on the story that started the thread: Huh. Turns out the father of the father & son protest team was head of some judicial review group and a lawyer of some note. You'd think he'd have known about the constraints of free speech on private property.
MoeGates
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#14 Posted on 6.3.03 0945.35
Reposted on: 6.3.10 0947.42
I'm not relaly concerned with people having a well thought out solution. My problem is with these jackasses that are protesting the war and don't know why they're against it.

This really works both ways you know. For every empty-headed college kid who's protesting the war because it's "cool," there's a empty-headed college student who's completely for the war because "he loves America" or some other such nonsense. For every person who is protesting the war because they don't like Bush (these people piss me off because if these people were just be out there protesting Bush, I'd join in a heartbeat) there's a person who's for the war because they love Bush - or at least the character he plays on TV.

When your main argument for a war is "some people who are against it are stupid and others are commies," THAT'S the last resort of a defeated argument.

Let's just agree that both pro- and anti-war people have their uninformed idiots and their thoughtful intelligent people on their side, and get back to debating the issues.

As for the shirt, I have no idea how someone can have a problem with a "Give peace a chance, Peace for the world" shirt. I mean, the guy was 60. Maybe it's just a leftover John Lennon T-shirt or something.


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#15 Posted on 6.3.03 1032.48
Reposted on: 6.3.10 1038.01

    Originally posted by Pool-Boy
    On this issue, though, the mall was 100% in the right. If I saw two people like that in the mall I WOULD confront them. "Let the inspectors work" indeed... let them work on what?!?!

    The mall has every right to enforce "peace in the mall," and that certainly is a firey issue. It would goad me into a confrontation, and I know I am not alone there.



Let me get this straight.

The person wearing a shirt with an anti-war message at the mall... but otherwise minding his own business and behaving like any typical shopper... HE'S the problem.

The person who sees a shirt that he disagrees with and feels compelled to go out of his way to start a fight, deliberately confronting and arguing with anyone who visibly holds a contrary opinion... he's NOT the problem.

The HELL?

Here's a great, radical tip. When you see someone wearing such a shirt at the mall, here are a few more options for you:

* Buy your own pro-war shirt and wear THAT in public, secure in the knowledge that the Public Pro/Anti-War Sentiments Scoreboard will now be even at one apiece.

* Think to yourself "What an asshole..." and go back to your shopping, secure in the knowledge that you consider yourself to be morally superior and better-informed than the whining peacenik maggot. If you like, you can even go home and rant for hours about the peacenik to your loved ones.

* Smile, knowing that the $20+ the peacenik spent on the shirt went to an American small business and is thus perpetuating the great American system of capitalism. God bless America!

* Have a prepared tape or CD in your car containing Hacksaw Jim Duggan footage, so that when you retreat to your vehicle, chants of "U-S-A! U-S-A!" will always be just one button-press away.

* Stop and wonder for a moment why you feel so THREATENED by what the other shirt says.

If another person -- someone you've never met, someone who has no impact on your daily life -- is against the war and displays that fact openly... why is that such a big deal that YOU have to do something about it? Is it absolutely vital to the war effort that all Americans think and act alike? Will our armed forces collapse if some mall shopper in New York fails to conform? Is Saddam receiving satellite photos of counter-culture mall-walkers from his aides and thinking "I was going to destroy my weapons and leave the country, but since BOB from NEW YORK wants peace, I'll keep fighting?"

But hey -- maybe this is a good precedent. The next time I'm at the mall and see a religious message on a T-shirt, I'll go over and pick a fight because it disturbs my atheist sensibilities. And mall security will have to take my side and kick the Jesus-shirt guy out of the mall, because HE was the one disturbing the piece by wearing a provocative T-shirt, right?

Sheesh.
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#16 Posted on 6.3.03 1752.16
Reposted on: 6.3.10 1752.45

    Originally Posted by Enojado Viento
    Grimis, the "Saddam=Hitler" comparison doesn't work. Saddam's not expansionist. And by 12 years time Hitler had most of Europe under his boot heel.



You must not have been here for Kuwait. You must also assume that the Saudis let us stay in their country because they like us, and not because they're afraid of an expansionist neighbor.
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#17 Posted on 6.3.03 2215.05
Reposted on: 6.3.10 2218.37
so, we're invading because of something Hussein did over 10 years ago?
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#18 Posted on 7.3.03 0733.38
Reposted on: 7.3.10 0738.35
I'm thoroughly convinced that if we wait, then some years from now, maybe two, maybe five, maybe ten, an American president is going to get a phone call informing him that Saddam is invading Kuwait again, and if we try to stop him, there are dirty bombs in half our major cities.

The man may not be a menace now, but that's only because we're not letting him become one. Do you want another North Korea on our hands, proliferating nukes everywhere and possibly drawing us into a horrible, destructive war?
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#19 Posted on 7.3.03 1022.05
Reposted on: 7.3.10 1029.03
First of all this "mall" incedent is what discusts my about Ameica. Wearing a T-Shirt is a speech, which we should have a freedom to express. I hate communists, but malls should be concidered somewhat public. Whenever you allow more then 1000 people on your property daily, it's not very private anymore. However I do realise the law, so my only hope is that they loose a shi load of customers and money.

As for the invasion of Iraq... I am afraid that we are just going to abondon them in anarchy. US needs to understand that you can't just tell people "Go, Democracy", and expect them to jump. If Bush has a plan (which I don't believe he does), and if he has the unanimous support of UN (which he doesn't), only then can a war on Iraq be justified.
Enojado Viento
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#20 Posted on 7.3.03 1851.55
Reposted on: 7.3.10 1859.06

    Originally posted by PalpatineW

      Originally Posted by Enojado Viento
      Grimis, the "Saddam=Hitler" comparison doesn't work. Saddam's not expansionist. And by 12 years time Hitler had most of Europe under his boot heel.



    You must not have been here for Kuwait. You must also assume that the Saudis let us stay in their country because they like us, and not because they're afraid of an expansionist neighbor.



Au contraire--I was. Hitler expanded out in all directions. Saddam lost Kuwait and rolled back. If any comparsion is apt it would be "Saddam=Mussolini."

And this choice about "a little terrorism now or a lot of terrorism later" is crapola. 9/11 was our welcome into the world, a world that deals with terrorism every day. It's sad that 10 people might die in an embassy bombing in say, Mogadishu, but I'll take 10 over 100 dying in a New York McDonald's. There's no going back to having an impenetrable nation.

Saddam is no terroirst mastermind. He's not even a Moslem. He wants to be the new Nasser, Osama wants an Islamic Empire. The two are not compatible objectives, and a glorydog like Saddam is not going to enamble someone like Bin laden to get credit that he should get. I doesn;t help him. He's only a brutal thug who we elevated to some sort of master villain when all he knows how to do is cudgel his enemies into oblvion. He hangs on to power by his fingernails and there's no solution to his rule that wouldn't put the Shi'ites in power in Iraq. How do you feel about dealing with TWO Irans?

The Saudis only let us stay for limited periods--we come in during a threat of war. They want us to keep the clamps on Iraq because that oil competition they don't want.
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