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The 7 - Basketball - Round 2 - Pistons/Cavs Register and log in to post!
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StingArmy
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#1 Posted on 6.5.06 0732.38
Reposted on: 6.5.13 0734.37
I love both teams, and I really love LeBron, but you have to assume the Pistons are going to win this one easily. Maybe even in four games. It's great to see the Cavs doing well now. I'm sure when LeBron was drafted 3 years ago, this is what the league was hoping for: for it's most marketable player to see some postseason success. I still can't believe LeBron going up to Gilbert Arenas as he was shooting those free throws at the end of regulation and saying, "You miss this free throw, y'all are going home," or something to that effect. Guess it worked!

ESPN.com could have put up a more flattering photo, though:

(image removed)

- StingArmy
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It's False
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#2 Posted on 7.5.06 2100.57
Reposted on: 7.5.13 2101.50
Detroit 113
Cleveland 86

Two words: AY CARUMBA!

And Cleveland was almost down by as much as 40! Unbelievable!
BOSsportsfan34
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#3 Posted on 7.5.06 2120.11
Reposted on: 7.5.13 2122.15
    Originally posted by StingArmy
    ESPN.com could have put up a more flattering photo, though:

    (image removed)

    - StingArmy


Let the "Brokeback Mountain" references begin....
Alpha Dog
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#4 Posted on 7.5.06 2130.40
Reposted on: 7.5.13 2132.16
    Originally posted by It's False
    Detroit 113
    Cleveland 86

    Two words: AY CARUMBA!

    And Cleveland was almost down by as much as 40! Unbelievable!


This series will be a sweep, and I would bet large sums of food and money on this.

I was watching this game, and I was disussing if anyone besides LeBron from Cleveland would make it into Detroit's rotation.

I guess Larry Hughes would, when he's healthy, be the 3rd guard, in place of Hunter or Delk, possibly in the Hunter defensive specialist role. Ilgauskas I wouldn't see happening - he's not as versatile as McDyess and doesn't fit the Pistons style of play AT ALL (nor does he Cleveland's for that matter). Maybe the Elden Campbell/Dale Davis memorial "Six fouls for Shaq" role.

My point is: do the Cavs have any hope of retaining LeBron? I say no.
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#5 Posted on 7.5.06 2208.24
Reposted on: 7.5.13 2208.37
    Originally posted by Alpha Dog
    My point is: do the Cavs have any hope of retaining LeBron? I say no.


You know, I keep seeing this pop up and I Just.Don't.Get.It. Where's he going to go? Okay, you say, his Nike contract will supposedly pay him more if he goes to NYC or LA.

1. How in the world are they going to afford him? The only way either the Lakers or the Knicks would be able to take him is in a sign and trade. The Cavs could stop that real quick by saying "Ok. We'll take Kobe Bryant and anybody else on your roster that's decent." As for the Knicks, if Zeke's still running the show, Cleveland will trade them Alan Henderson for Channing Frye and their next 17 first-round draft picks.

2. Here's a question that I've never seen answered: Would this supposed increase in LeBron's Nike contract _ remember, nobody's ever really been able to nail down that it even exists _ be more than the difference between what he'd make re-signing with the Cavs and signing with a different team?

3. LeBron is a GOD in Cleveland, and always will be. He's an hour from home and he's got a chance to own that city _ and probably the entire state _ forever if he leads the Cavs to a championship. The problem with him leaving is that if he goes to a team with a lot of cap room, they most likely suck. If it's a sign-and-trade, then they probably will have him and not a lot else because they gave it up to get him. He's already got the big shoe deal and the Cavs are going to give him the max, so he doesn't have to go somewhere else to be a superstar _ or make superstar money.

Anyway. I don't think BronBron's going anywhere. Are the Cavaliers a great team right now? No. But with LeBron, Hughes and Flip Murray all playing together from the word go next year they have some serious firepower. Add a Ben Wallace type and a Tayshaun Prince type and you've got a very, very dangerous team.

(edited by Crimedog on 7.5.06 2309)
whatever
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#6 Posted on 8.5.06 0729.57
Reposted on: 8.5.13 0730.15
    Originally posted by Crimedog
      Originally posted by Alpha Dog
      My point is: do the Cavs have any hope of retaining LeBron? I say no.


    You know, I keep seeing this pop up and I Just.Don't.Get.It. Where's he going to go?

    (Excellent analysis here)

    Anyway. I don't think BronBron's going anywhere. Are the Cavaliers a great team right now? No. But with LeBron, Hughes and Flip Murray all playing together from the word go next year they have some serious firepower. Add a Ben Wallace type and a Tayshaun Prince type and you've got a very, very dangerous team.

THANK YOU for explaining this. LeBron himeself has been quoted as saying he wishes he could sign the max deal with Cleveland and get it over with already.

Plus, the Cavs will win at least one game in this series.

(edited by whatever on 8.5.06 0831)
Alpha Dog
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#7 Posted on 8.5.06 1558.28
Reposted on: 8.5.13 1559.01
    Originally posted by Crimedog
    You know, I keep seeing this pop up and I Just.Don't.Get.It. Where's he going to go? Okay, you say, his Nike contract will supposedly pay him more if he goes to NYC or LA.

    1. How in the world are they going to afford him? The only way either the Lakers or the Knicks would be able to take him is in a sign and trade. The Cavs could stop that real quick by saying "Ok. We'll take Kobe Bryant and anybody else on your roster that's decent." As for the Knicks, if Zeke's still running the show, Cleveland will trade them Alan Henderson for Channing Frye and their next 17 first-round draft picks.


I don't know anything about a contact incentive with Nike, which seems dubious to me at best, since it's basically a cash inducement for a circumvention of the salary cap. So I exclude any possibility of this from any analysis I would make of the situation.

As far as a sign-and-trade, of course that's the main option for LeBron to leave, but you're missing out on the fact that these sign-and-trades are generally of the "cents on the dollar" type of deal, where the team losing the superstar gets a bad contract or two (to make the dollars match up) plus a combination of young players and draft choices (to then try and make the talent match up).

For example, Phoenix trading Joe Johnson to Atlanta brought Phoenix no established players (although Phoenix get did Boris Diaw as a throw-in, who blossomed in Phoenix after washing out in Atlanta). Also off the top of my head, the Bulls dealt Eddy Curry to the Knicks for no one of note.

    Originally posted by Crimedog
    2. Here's a question that I've never seen answered: Would this supposed increase in LeBron's Nike contract _ remember, nobody's ever really been able to nail down that it even exists _ be more than the difference between what he'd make re-signing with the Cavs and signing with a different team?


I agree, LeBron is a superstar no matter where he plays, so his Nike contract should not be a factor.

    Originally posted by Crimedog
    3. LeBron is a GOD in Cleveland, and always will be.


Bingo. However, I would agree that LeBron would still be revered in Ohio even if he left Cleveland. Larry Bird spend his entire career in Boston, and is still the popular man in Indiana. Magic is just as revered in Michigan as he is in Los Angeles, as well Jordan in North Carolina, Shaq in San Antonio, and Isiah in Chicago. My point is, the legends are always celebrated by their hometown. The unprecedented part of this scenario would be LeBron playing for and then leaving his hometown, that would be tricky.

    Originally posted by Crimedog
    Are the Cavaliers a great team right now? No. But with LeBron, Hughes and Flip Murray all playing together from the word go next year they have some serious firepower. Add a Ben Wallace type and a Tayshaun Prince type and you've got a very, very dangerous team.


Now you come to the meat of my case about LeBron. Without LeBron, where is this team? I would submit they're the Toronto Raptors. We've seen many cases by now of the blueprint of a superstar surrounded by a extremely marginal supporting cast - the Celtics, T-Wolves, Sixers, Sonics, the T-Mac Orlando years, the Grant Hill years in Detroit, the Vince Carter years in Toronto.

The blueprint seems to be the superstar sucks it up for a few years and tries to elevate the team single-handedly, and eventually they lose the effort.

The fact that this Cavs team has made it as far as the did is a testament to the singular talent of LeBron (and also the bad play in the Eastern conference - does anyone actually think Washington would make the playoffs in the West?)

While Larry Hughes is a nice (and fragile) player, he's the 3rd or 4th option on a good team, as is Zydrunas Ilgauskas (who's now on the wrong side of 30).

The problem is with Danny Ferry and Cleveland management, who handed out $130M+ for Hughes, Ilgauskas and Damon Jones (???), and now we're hanging out hats on Flip Murray? Flip Murray is basically Smush Parker. I think LeBron should have major concerns about Cleveland's ability to surround him with any sort of talent that could make him an NBA legend on par with his talent. Otherwise, he could find himself on the Tracy McGrady/Kevin Garnett career path, which would certainly make LeBron rich and a legend in Cleveland, but not an NBA legend. He becomes Clyde Drexler (the pre-Hakeem years) and not Michael Jordan, and I think LeBron is much better than Clyde the Glide.

    Originally posted by whatever
    Plus, the Cavs will win at least one game in this series.


I hope you're right. I suspect it would take a LeBron 45-15-12 game to do it, and I know I'd like to see that.
Whitebacon
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#8 Posted on 8.5.06 1700.25
Reposted on: 8.5.13 1703.48
    Originally posted by Alpha Dog
    Also off the top of my head, the Bulls dealt Eddy Curry to the Knicks for no one of note.


Mike Sweetney, who promptly flopped in Chicago. But the real gem of that trade was getting their first rounder this year, and the rights to switch draft picks next year if (HA) the finish with a worse record/higher pick.
BigSteve
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#9 Posted on 8.5.06 1742.41
Reposted on: 8.5.13 1744.58

    Bingo. However, I would agree that LeBron would still be revered in Ohio even if he left Cleveland. Larry Bird spend his entire career in Boston, and is still the popular man in Indiana. Magic is just as revered in Michigan as he is in Los Angeles, as well Jordan in North Carolina, Shaq in San Antonio, and Isiah in Chicago. My point is, the legends are always celebrated by their hometown. The unprecedented part of this scenario would be LeBron playing for and then leaving his hometown, that would be tricky.


And that's the most important part. It's hard for me to believe that a superstar athlete in any sports can be beloved in his hometown if he leaves. Especially when he is a true once in a lifetime superstar who bolts after three or four years before he's even in his prime. I'm sure everyone wouldn't hate them, but there'd still be a ton of people who would (rightfully to some extent) feel betrayed.


    I think LeBron should have major concerns about Cleveland's ability to surround him with any sort of talent that could make him an NBA legend on par with his talent. Otherwise, he could find himself on the Tracy McGrady/Kevin Garnett career path, which would certainly make LeBron rich and a legend in Cleveland, but not an NBA legend. He becomes Clyde Drexler (the pre-Hakeem years) and not Michael Jordan, and I think LeBron is much better than Clyde the Glide.


Lebron will be a legend whether he wins a title or not. It's basically unprecedented for someone to be this good at his age, and the scariest part is that he's still a few years away from entering his peak.

I think it will be a moot point anyway. If he gets surrounded by even a serviceable supporting cast, I think he'll win a title. I agree that they're a Toronto type team without Lebron, but I disagree about the KG/Tmac comparisons. KG's team lost in the first round seven years in a row, and Tmac has done it five years in a row (and counting). Lebron almost singlehandedly won a series this year, and he's only 21. Hell, they/he would have a fighting chance to win another one if they drew the Nets or to a lesser extent the Heat rather than the Pistons, who were basically the one team they had no chance against.
redsoxnation
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#10 Posted on 8.5.06 2217.45
Reposted on: 8.5.13 2219.09
If LeBron bolts from the Cavs, he probably won't be able to live in Ohio. Hometown guy bolts the hometown team in the pros and the team goes into the shitter(if LeBron leaves, the pre-LeBron 5 years will look like a golden era of Cavs basketball)? Don't think they would be welcoming him back with open arms. Bird, Magic, Isiah, Jordan etc. were drafted away, they didn't have a choice. By the luck of the draw(otherwise known as the 1985 lottery Part 2), LeBron became a pro in his hometown. That makes leaving 100 times worse.
Now, if the Cavs don't look like they can be a title contender and the Nike rumor is true, then LeBron could bolt for the mid level exception. He plays under that for a few years, while Nike helps make up the difference. After playing out the mid level for the number of years required, he signs a max contract with the team he joined with the mid level, and Cleveland gets no compensation or opportunity to match the contract. Very unlikely to occur, but that would be the scenario under which this would happen.
Normally, I love the team that gets waxed in Game 1 of a series in Game 2. This series is the exception to the rule. Washington considered defense to be a foreign concept. Detroit will just enjoy putting the screws to the Cavs, and probably will be pissed if they have to a play a 5th Game.
Crimedog
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#11 Posted on 11.5.06 1803.02
Reposted on: 11.5.13 1804.20
    Originally posted by Alpha Dog
    As far as a sign-and-trade, of course that's the main option for LeBron to leave, but you're missing out on the fact that these sign-and-trades are generally of the "cents on the dollar" type of deal, where the team losing the superstar gets a bad contract or two (to make the dollars match up) plus a combination of young players and draft choices (to then try and make the talent match up).

    For example, Phoenix trading Joe Johnson to Atlanta brought Phoenix no established players (although Phoenix get did Boris Diaw as a throw-in, who blossomed in Phoenix after washing out in Atlanta). Also off the top of my head, the Bulls dealt Eddy Curry to the Knicks for no one of note.




    Bingo. However, I would agree that LeBron would still be revered in Ohio even if he left Cleveland. Larry Bird spend his entire career in Boston, and is still the popular man in Indiana. Magic is just as revered in Michigan as he is in Los Angeles, as well Jordan in North Carolina, Shaq in San Antonio, and Isiah in Chicago. My point is, the legends are always celebrated by their hometown. The unprecedented part of this scenario would be LeBron playing for and then leaving his hometown, that would be tricky.



Well, here's the thing about Joe Johnson and Eddy Curry: They're Joe Johnson and Eddy Curry, not LeBron James. The Cavs will be more than willing to throw the kitchen sink at James to keep him. The Bulls didn't want to hang on to Curry without finding out more about his heart condition and Joe Johnson made it easy for Phoenix by saying "Hey, I want to go to Atlanta so I can be The Man." The counter-argument is Shaq, but the Lakers had no choice _ one of them had to go.

As for your other point, LeBron would be public enemy No. 1 in a heartbeat if he bailed on Cleveland. The big difference with the other guys you mentioned is that they never played professionally in their home states and then left. Bird, Magic and Jordan all played college ball in their home states, which goes a long way toward making sure you're revered at home forever. Plus, they had no choice in where they started their careers _ they went where they were drafted. But if Bird had played with the Pacers and then signed as a free agent with, say, the Knicks, I'm betting he would have been booed mercilessly.
whatever
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#12 Posted on 15.5.06 0746.47
Reposted on: 15.5.13 0749.30
    Originally posted by Alpha Dog
    This series will be a sweep, and I would bet large sums of food and money on this.

    Originally posted by whatever
    Plus, the Cavs will win at least one game in this series.


Thank you Cavs, for proving me right. Any more wins after this is gravy. Really, if anyone not named LeBron on the Cavs would just hit the open shots he creates for them, then this would be a much more competitive series.

(edited by whatever on 15.5.06 0847)
Merc
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#13 Posted on 15.5.06 2103.15
Reposted on: 15.5.13 2103.51
Game 4.

74-72 Cavs (sports.yahoo.com)
It's False
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#14 Posted on 17.5.06 2126.07
Reposted on: 17.5.13 2126.32
And just like everyone thought after the Pistons handed the Cavs their asses in the first two games, the most logical scenario occurs and the Cavs take a 3-2 series lead.

Wait, what?

The CAVS are up 3-2 on the PISTONS?

What the hell happened?!
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#15 Posted on 17.5.06 2142.35
Reposted on: 17.5.13 2144.42
It has been a long time, but Welcome Back Portland Trailblazer version Rasheed Wallace.
Flip Saunders is extremely close to having the tag of Good Regular Season/Poor Post-Season Coach tattooed to his forehead.
Even if he is mentally ready to play in Game 6, you can't put Hughes in the line-up if you are the Cavs. Until you lose a game, you have to ride things out the way they are now.
Pistons should still win this series, but, the cakewalk they apparently had in the East now has become a minefield, with a rested Miami team waiting if they somehow avoid elimination twice. They won in '04 in this manner, but they have almost 200 more games played since then that might catch up to them the longer they go.
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#16 Posted on 17.5.06 2346.49
Reposted on: 17.5.13 2346.58
All I have to say right now is keep on a-fightin', you two. Keep on a-fightin'.
whatever
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#17 Posted on 18.5.06 0740.49
Reposted on: 18.5.13 0741.50
    Originally posted by whatever
    Any more wins after this is gravy.

MMMMMmmmmm..... sweet, delicious gravy.

In honor of his all-around coolness, kickass attitude, and badass toughness, Sideshow Andy gets my avatar for awhile.

I grew up a Clevelander. All we can think about is, "In what spectacular fashion will this series be lost?" I have never had the experience of having such a dominating player as LeBron that makes it possible to be so optimistic. This has been a fantastic run in the playoffs so far, and even if (God forbid) they lose this round, this team has proven its toughness to me. At a minimum, they have pushed the top team in the NBA to the limit in a playoff series. Wow.

Is it Friday yet?

(edited by whatever on 18.5.06 0842)
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#18 Posted on 18.5.06 0848.22
Reposted on: 18.5.13 0851.58
I really shouldn't be surprised by this. This is a Michigan team after all. Just look at recent history. Red Wings - great regular season, first round exit. Pistons - World Championship, Eastern Conference Champions, now second round exit (trust me, it will happen). Now I don't even want the Tigers to make the playoffs, what's the point? They would just be stealing a spot from someone with an actual chance to do something in the postseason. But that's ok, since I am now officially done with Michigan sports teams. No more disappointment when U of M botches another year by losing two games early in the year. No more frustration when MSU blows it during March Madness. No more worrying about a team that dominates the regular season making it to the second round. And for all the problems with the Lions, at least they don't give you false hope. You KNOW they will stink, always. Go Cavs. I'm done.
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#19 Posted on 18.5.06 2157.17
Reposted on: 18.5.13 2158.16
    Originally posted by R-Dub
    I really shouldn't be surprised by this. This is a Michigan team after all. Just look at recent history. Red Wings - great regular season, first round exit. Pistons - World Championship, Eastern Conference Champions, now second round exit (trust me, it will happen). Now I don't even want the Tigers to make the playoffs, what's the point? They would just be stealing a spot from someone with an actual chance to do something in the postseason.


For the Tigers, just making the playoffs after all their years of inepitude is reward enough.

Lebron is just scary good. It's funny, though, for all of the flak that Kobe took for being a one-man team, Lebron is doing more with even less in Cleveland.
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#20 Posted on 19.5.06 0337.23
Reposted on: 19.5.13 0337.40
    Originally posted by whatever
      Originally posted by whatever
      Any more wins after this is gravy.

    MMMMMmmmmm..... sweet, delicious gravy.

    In honor of his all-around coolness, kickass attitude, and badass toughness, Sideshow Andy gets my avatar for awhile.

    I grew up a Clevelander. All we can think about is, "In what spectacular fashion will this series be lost?" I have never had the experience of having such a dominating player as LeBron that makes it possible to be so optimistic.


Your forgetting Joey Belle. How dare you!

I'm far from a basketball fan, but I'd really like to jump on the bandwagon, hell it's only for a few weeks right? But it is Cleveland, with my first sporting memory being the Drive, and still shaking from the Tribe's collapse last year, I can say with the utmost expertise that Cleveland sports teams can ruin even the most perfect wet dream. So, don't fret R-dub, no upset here, The Pistons will be fine.

Yes, after 20 years of this, you do become irrationally pessimistic.

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