The W
Views: 137312520
Main | FAQ | Search: Y! / G | Color chart | Log in for more!
17.10.11 2034
The 7 - Baseball - Roger not denied! Register and log in to post!
Pages: 1 2 Next(1187 newer) Next thread | Previous thread
User
Post (26 total)
StaggerLee
Scrapple
Level: 154

Posts: 379/7080
EXP: 45596372
For next: 765602

Since: 3.10.02
From: Right side of the tracks

Since last post: 40 days
Last activity: 22 days
#1 Posted on 14.6.03 1008.06
Reposted on: 14.6.10 1014.13
Wins his 300th AND goes over 4000 strikeouts!

And, does it against the Cardinals! LOL! Thats just what this Yankee fan living in St Louis wanted to see!

Congrats Roger! Well done!
Promote this thread!
TheCow
Landjager
Level: 65

Posts: 511/948
EXP: 2285505
For next: 50135

Since: 3.1.02
From: Knoxville, TN

Since last post: 3905 days
Last activity: 3904 days
AIM:  
Y!:
#2 Posted on 14.6.03 1036.34
Reposted on: 14.6.10 1037.28
*sigh*

Well, I knew it was going to happen eventually - you can only have your pen blow so many leads before they finally hold onto one for you. It probably helped matters quite a bit that although Simontacchi had a good game, he had 3 bad pitches, all of which were taken out of the park. Oh well, I'm not too bitter.

Congrats, Roger. You've done well.
AWArulz
Scrapple
Level: 118

Posts: 403/3738
EXP: 17858536
For next: 524432

Since: 28.1.02
From: Louisville, KY

Since last post: 39 days
Last activity: 16 days
AIM:  
Y!:
#3 Posted on 14.6.03 2325.10
Reposted on: 14.6.10 2326.20
well, even a seeming jerk-off like Clemens is going to get 300 with all the health, longevity, and, yes, (he admits most grudgingly) talent he has.

I just wish it could have stretched out a leeeetle bit more, so he had to keep getting seats and flying his family around. It was classic having his family there and interviewed on Fox JUST before he got knocked out and then got to watch his loss go up in the dugout a week ago against the Cubbies.

OK, Roger, you can shave now...


(edited by AWArulz on 15.6.03 0026)
Big Bad
Scrapple
Level: 155

Posts: 1411/7061
EXP: 46457687
For next: 959640

Since: 4.1.02
From: Dorchester, Ontario

Since last post: 101 days
Last activity: 2 days
#4 Posted on 15.6.03 0035.22
Reposted on: 15.6.10 0035.45
No matter how many times he wins, he's still a loser.
JayJayDean
Scrapple
Level: 130

Posts: 330/4750
EXP: 25636459
For next: 94187

Since: 2.1.02
From: Seattle, WA

Since last post: 996 days
Last activity: 574 days
AIM:  
Y!:
#5 Posted on 15.6.03 1015.05
Reposted on: 15.6.10 1023.54
NOW he's claiming he'll boycott the Hall of Fame induction ceremony if he can't be a Yankee! Another example of an athlete who doesn't "get it".

Roger Clemens: Bigger than the Hall of Fame.
Stefonics
Frankfurter
Level: 61

Posts: 176/825
EXP: 1844457
For next: 32150

Since: 17.3.02
From: New Jerusalem

Since last post: 407 days
Last activity: 40 days
#6 Posted on 15.6.03 2113.33
Reposted on: 15.6.10 2114.40
While I disagree with Clemens' choice of hat to wear upon his induction into the Hall, I agree with his position concerning the right of the player to choose which hat they wear. Clemens should go in wearing a Boston hat. A Yankee hat is a slap in the face if there ever was one. The argument could be made that he got his rings, his 4000th k, and his 6th Cy Young in pinstripes. But his best years were in Boston. Point being, I hate Clemens and I hate the Yankees, but a player should have the right to choose.


On a side note, Carter should have been able to go into the Hall with a Mets hat on.
Whitebacon
Banger
Level: 100

Posts: 513/2542
EXP: 10028011
For next: 326421

Since: 12.1.02
From: Fresno, CA

Since last post: 51 days
Last activity: 21 hours
AIM:  
ICQ:  
#7 Posted on 15.6.03 2303.32
Reposted on: 15.6.10 2303.37
The thing with the hats came about when players who had played for multiple teams were getting paid off or talking about getting paid off to put on that teams hat for the hall. I think I remember about hearing the D-Rays giving Boggs a front office job in exchange for wearing their hat into the Hall. And wasn't there something with the Padres and Winfield?
Guru Zim
SQL Dejection
Administrator
Level: 146

Posts: 1601/6162
EXP: 37952123
For next: 561263

Since: 9.12.01
From: Bay City, OR

Since last post: 37 days
Last activity: 21 days
AIM:  
ICQ:  
Y!:
#8 Posted on 16.6.03 0123.13
Reposted on: 16.6.10 0128.27
Winfield did go in as a Pad, and he does have a front office job. I'll not lie - it's a stretch for him to be in as a Padre - and there definitely was some murmuring about us buying the spot.

I think it was Boggs threatening to go in as a Devil Ray that did it, though.

(edited by Guru Zim on 15.6.03 2324)
drjayphd
Scrapple
Moderator
Level: 121

Posts: 1277/4025
EXP: 19816480
For next: 240274

Since: 22.4.02
From: Outside of Boston

Since last post: 185 days
Last activity: 53 days
AIM:  
ICQ:  
Y!:
#9 Posted on 16.6.03 0225.21
Reposted on: 16.6.10 0229.01
How's about they piss everyone off equally and have him go in as a Blue Jay? Really, he should know that they've made that rule for a reason: people doing dumb shit like what he's threatening to do. As far as I'm concerned, the person who ran him out of Boston is gone, stop holding the grudge. It's OVER, Clemens. Your problem was with Duquette, and he's not there. Hell, they even sold the team. Stop trying to twist the knife, because it's not really hurting us anymore as much as it is you.

Now the tricky part is getting him to read this post...
Grimis
Scrapple
Level: 129

Posts: 1612/4700
EXP: 24838830
For next: 210891

Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 2725 days
Last activity: 1179 days
#10 Posted on 16.6.03 0632.17
Reposted on: 16.6.10 0636.21

    Originally posted by Guru Zim
    I think it was Boggs threatening to go in as a Devil Ray that did it, though.

    (edited by Guru Zim on 15.6.03 2324)


It was. The contract he signed with the Rays stipulated that he would go in the Hall as a Ray. It was already bad enough he got his 3,000th hit has a Devil Ray...
skorpio17
Morcilla
Level: 54

Posts: 368/618
EXP: 1184300
For next: 49577

Since: 11.7.02
From: New Jersey

Since last post: 3865 days
Last activity: 3865 days
#11 Posted on 16.6.03 0824.23
Reposted on: 16.6.10 0824.24

    Originally posted by Big Bad
    No matter how many times he wins, he's still a loser.


Considering he is only the best pitcher ever, How is he a "loser?" He has a very good winning percentage as well as world series rings, seems like a winner to me.

The HoF hat deal isn't Roger's fault. He feels that Boston treated him like dirt, which they did. Boston turned on Clemens before he turned on them. Duquette forced out Clemens, claiming he was in the twilight of his career. He rightfully doesn't want to represent an organization that treated him like that.

However, by the time he gets in the HoF, five years from now, cooler heads will prevail. By then if the Red Sox had an ounce of class, they would've retired his number #21. He carried that team in the 80's and 90's.

In contrast, this weekend Yankee fans were giving the biggest cheers to ex-Yankees Tino Martinez and Joe Girardi. Good class.
redsoxnation
Scrapple
Level: 158

Posts: 2560/7534
EXP: 50355264
For next: 331071

Since: 24.7.02

Since last post: 1934 days
Last activity: 1934 days
#12 Posted on 16.6.03 0850.06
Reposted on: 16.6.10 0850.37

    Originally posted by skorpio17

      Originally posted by Big Bad
      No matter how many times he wins, he's still a loser.


    Considering he is only the best pitcher ever, How is he a "loser?" He has a very good winning percentage as well as world series rings, seems like a winner to me.

    The HoF hat deal isn't Roger's fault. He feels that Boston treated him like dirt, which they did. Boston turned on Clemens before he turned on them. Duquette forced out Clemens, claiming he was in the twilight of his career. He rightfully doesn't want to represent an organization that treated him like that.

    However, by the time he gets in the HoF, five years from now, cooler heads will prevail. By then if the Red Sox had an ounce of class, they would've retired his number #21. He carried that team in the 80's and 90's.

    In contrast, this weekend Yankee fans were giving the biggest cheers to ex-Yankees Tino Martinez and Joe Girardi. Good class.








He carried the Red Sox in the 80's, but after '91 he was a dud for Boston. And before the syncophants talk about the bad Boston teams of the early 90's: they were in first place in August of '93 with a 13 game home stand when they went in the tank, topped off by Clemens being knocked out in the second inning against Toronto and Dave Stewart. Then in '95 when Boston romped in the East, Clemens was at best the 3rd best pitcher in the rotation, behind Erik Hanson and Tim Wakefield (and its arguable whether we was better than Aaron Sele or Vaughn Eschelman that season). Yet Clemens' waterboy Kevin Kennedy puts Clemens on the mound for Game 1 in Cleveland.
Clemens #21 won't be retired by Boston for at least 20 years, because the fan base despises him, and why piss off your fans by retiring a number?
JayJayDean
Scrapple
Level: 130

Posts: 334/4750
EXP: 25636459
For next: 94187

Since: 2.1.02
From: Seattle, WA

Since last post: 996 days
Last activity: 574 days
AIM:  
Y!:
#13 Posted on 16.6.03 0908.17
Reposted on: 16.6.10 0914.58
Clemens isn't a "loser" as in wins or losses, he's a "loser" as in he's a dickhead, asshole, pompous jerkoff. He got in the doghouse with Red Sox fans with the whole "we have to carry our own bags and the Red Sox don't treat my wife nicely" interview back in the 80s (1987, I think) and never really got back from there. THEN, he gets kicked out of the playoff game against Oakland, THEN, he gets F-A-T and basically forces the Red Sox to get rid of him. He should thank Dan Duquette every day for pissing him off and motivating him to get back to his dominating form when he went to Toronto, but Duquette would have been CRAZY to give 1995-Clemens on of the highest salaries in baseball, because he was just not good.

It's funny how some pitchers just let themselves head toward the tank then turn it around with a change of teams. Randy Johnson did the same thing with the Mariners.

(edited by JayJayDean on 16.6.03 0708)
Chico Santana
Boudin rouge
Level: 50

Posts: 316/509
EXP: 885863
For next: 61461

Since: 2.7.02
From: Jaaaaamacia Mon, No Problem.

Since last post: 5510 days
Last activity: 5507 days
#14 Posted on 16.6.03 1526.47
Reposted on: 16.6.10 1529.01

    Originally posted by skorpio17

      Originally posted by Big Bad
      No matter how many times he wins, he's still a loser.


    Considering he is only the best pitcher ever, How is he a "loser?"




Ummmmmmmmmm, yeah. Can I borrow your time machine? Because unlike you I haven't seen Cy Young, Joe Wood, or Bob Gibson, or Sandy Koufax, or Christy Mathewson. How can you make a broad statement like that? The best ever topic is dumb, how do you know Mark Mulder won't be better than Roger? How can you compare Randy Johnson to someone you have never seen, the game changes all the time. You can only compare a pitcher to others that played the same era.

Those World Series were not on his back, David Cone was a far far better big game pitcher. Dave Stewert pretty much owned Clemens every big game they faced one another. Roger is a Hall of Famer, but JayJayDean and BigBad are right, he's a loser! It's nice to see him finnish career with a Texas team like he said he would during his whole career, oh wait!
darkdragoon
Bockwurst
Level: 51

Posts: 211/537
EXP: 955520
For next: 58425

Since: 26.8.02

Since last post: 5152 days
Last activity: 5152 days
#15 Posted on 16.6.03 1954.36
Reposted on: 16.6.10 1956.17
Sure turned around the panic after the no-hitter around, good for Roger. Now maybe he'll lighten up a bit. Ok, Greg, your turn now.
skorpio17
Morcilla
Level: 54

Posts: 370/618
EXP: 1184300
For next: 49577

Since: 11.7.02
From: New Jersey

Since last post: 3865 days
Last activity: 3865 days
#16 Posted on 17.6.03 1306.47
Reposted on: 17.6.10 1306.48

    Originally posted by Chico Santana

      Originally posted by skorpio17

        Originally posted by Big Bad
        No matter how many times he wins, he's still a loser.


      Considering he is only the best pitcher ever, How is he a "loser?"




    Ummmmmmmmmm, yeah. Can I borrow your time machine? Because unlike you I haven't seen Cy Young, Joe Wood, or Bob Gibson, or Sandy Koufax, or Christy Mathewson. How can you make a broad statement like that? The best ever topic is dumb, how do you know Mark Mulder won't be better than Roger? How can you compare Randy Johnson to someone you have never seen, the game changes all the time. You can only compare a pitcher to others that played the same era.

    Those World Series were not on his back, David Cone was a far far better big game pitcher. Dave Stewert pretty much owned Clemens every big game they faced one another. Roger is a Hall of Famer, but JayJayDean and BigBad are right, he's a loser! It's nice to see him finnish career with a Texas team like he said he would during his whole career, oh wait!



The good thing about baseball is that they keep a record of box scores so I don't need a time machine to know what happened.

Unlike the "He's a Loser because I say he is" argument.
I have actual legitimate reasons for calling him the best pitcher ever.

It is simple. Just take a look at the teams he pitched for. Look at how many more games they won on days when he pitched than on days he didn't pitch.

In Clemens 15 seasons with Boston and Toronto, they won 52% of their games.
(Contrary to conventional wisdom those Boston teams,except for 95, were only really good on days when Clemens pitched for them.)

Clemens alone has a 66% winning percentage which means his teams were 14% points better than they were when he didn't pitch. That is the largest difference for any pitcher with more than 100 wins.

It will be fun to see the Hall of Fame voting when it comes to it. He should get more votes (a higher voted percentage) than Tom Seaver and Seaver is the current all-time vote leader for pitchers with around 98%.
Seaver is also on my short list of best pitchers ever along with Lefty Grove.

Also, look at Clemens World Series stats: 3-0, 40 IP, 1.56 ERA, 0.93 WHIP. Sounds to me like a big game pitcher.

He was even good back in 1996 "his off-year" he led the league in K's the same year the Sox put him out to pasture.

Getting Boston to retire your number turns out to be even more difficult than getting into the Hall. The stated criteria is playing at least 10 years for the Sox, already in the Hall of Fame, + finished career with the Sox. So far he only meets one of the 3. Only Fisk got his number retired, so go figure.

JayJayDean
Scrapple
Level: 130

Posts: 336/4750
EXP: 25636459
For next: 94187

Since: 2.1.02
From: Seattle, WA

Since last post: 996 days
Last activity: 574 days
AIM:  
Y!:
#17 Posted on 17.6.03 1424.26
Reposted on: 17.6.10 1425.25
The Red Sox have retired Fisk, Ted Williams, Yaz, Bobby Doerr, and Johnny Pesky's numbers.

Let me stress again that no one is disputing Roger Clemens' career records or accomplishments (although I somewhat disagree with using his World Series numbers alone as justification of being a "big-game pitcher. What about '86 World Series Game 6? Getting blasted by Oakland in '88 and '90 in the ALCS? Game 3 of the '99 ALCS when Pedro and the Red Sox kicked his pinstriped butt in three innings?) but he is an emotionally-stunted, spoiled baby of a man.

Football fans in Baltimore think John Elway is a loser, even though he's one of the greatest QBs of all-time. Same with lots of New Englanders (or ex-New Englanders, in my case) and Roger Clemens. He could go 36-0 and we'd all still be calling him "LOSER!"
TheCow
Landjager
Level: 65

Posts: 516/948
EXP: 2285505
For next: 50135

Since: 3.1.02
From: Knoxville, TN

Since last post: 3905 days
Last activity: 3904 days
AIM:  
Y!:
#18 Posted on 17.6.03 1658.45
Reposted on: 17.6.10 1659.01
Okay, I was going to try and stay out of the whole "best pitcher ever" argument, but you've left me no choice.

I'll help you out a little bit first. If you're going to compare Clemens' teams in his first 15 seasons, that's fine, but at least get your winning percentages right. He won 66% of his starts, but if the teams won 52% overall, then you have to factor out Clemens' starts in figuring out the non-Clemens winning percentage. (I think their percentages would be something like 49-50%, but that's hasty math.) In other words, it'd be 16-17% instead of 14%. If you can make the case that the teams had a losing percentage on days he wasn't pitching, that looks better.

With that being said.... you're still incredibly off. Whatever numbers you throw out there pale in comparison to 511. That's the number of wins Cy Young has. Granted, I know it was from a different era, but they didn't name it the Cy Young award for no reason. If you're going to claim Clemens as the best pitcher ever, I'd love to see him run out there every third day to pitch a complete game. Modern fans (myself included) can't really fathom that with the way the game's played now. However, I have no doubt in my mind that Cy, Mathewson, Joe Wood, Walter Johnson, et. al (I know there's TONS I'm forgetting), with the modern regimen, could go out there and simply blow people away with their stuff. It wouldn't even be close. I've heard people place him as high as 6th on "best pitcher" lists, but never first. Never - there's way too many good pre-WWII pitchers. After all, at least half of the 300-win club reached it before WWII, and most before Clemens even started pitching. (That's as much a testament to the 5-man rotation as anything else, though.) They must have been doing something right back then.

Oh, and for big-game pitchers, I'll take Whitey Ford against Clemens any day of the week. Also, how about this line?

3-0, 1.04 ERA, 17 1/3 IP, 19 K, 0.69 WHIP. That was Randy's line in the 2001 World Series. Doesn't seem half-bad to me, at least.

Whitey Ford's WS line, by comparison? 10-8, 2.71 ERA, 146 IP, 94 K, 1.14 WHIP. Yeah, that might be a lot of losses, but he did play in 11 World Series, y'know. That sort of thing happens. Of those Series, only the '53, '56, and '64 stats were really bad outings. In '60 and '61, he was a combined 4-0 with a 0.00 ERA. You read that right.

Please don't say Roger's the best pitcher ever.

(Edited to fix a couple of minor understanding errors - carry on, nothing to see here.)

(edited by TheCow on 17.6.03 1802)
Whitebacon
Banger
Level: 100

Posts: 514/2542
EXP: 10028011
For next: 326421

Since: 12.1.02
From: Fresno, CA

Since last post: 51 days
Last activity: 21 hours
AIM:  
ICQ:  
#19 Posted on 17.6.03 1858.21
Reposted on: 17.6.10 1859.01
I have a question: If you're placing Clemens in the top two pitchers of all time, where will you place Randy in three years? (If of course, he decides to stick around that long)
darkdragoon
Bockwurst
Level: 51

Posts: 213/537
EXP: 955520
For next: 58425

Since: 26.8.02

Since last post: 5152 days
Last activity: 5152 days
#20 Posted on 17.6.03 2038.27
Reposted on: 17.6.10 2039.57
Yeah, that's the thing. Randy will pass him in Ks, has a chance to get as many Cy Young awards, and even with his knee problems get at least to 250+ wins. Even then there's still Maddux and Glavine in the elder statesman category. Plus there's still a lot of life left in Pedro, Muss etc.
Pages: 1 2 NextThread ahead: Report: Gonzalez to Montreal(maybe?)
Next thread: Moneyball -- Who's read it?
Previous thread: Fenway Must Go
(1187 newer) Next thread | Previous thread
Related threads: All-Time Yankees Team - Godzilla Rocks the House - YES, the Yankees are back on TV! - More...
The 7 - Baseball - Roger not denied!Register and log in to post!

The W™ message board - 7 year recycle

ZimBoard
©2001-2018 Brothers Zim
This old hunk of junk rendered your page in 0.171 seconds.