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The 7 - Current Events & Politics - Moore had Iraqi prisoner abuse footage
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It's False
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#1 Posted on 14.6.04 2005.28
Reposted on: 14.6.11 2006.29
http://news.yahoo.com/ news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/ 20040614/ap_en_ot/michael_moore_1

    Originally posted by Yahoo! News via the AP
    Filmmaker Michael Moore had footage of prisoner abuse in Iraq long before the atrocities captured international attention, but decided to stay quiet until his new movie came out. Now he's questioning that decision.

    "I had it months before the story broke on '60 Minutes,' and I really struggled with what to do with it," Moore told the San Francisco Chronicle. "I wanted to come out with it sooner, but I thought I'd be accused of just putting this out for publicity for my movie. That prevented me from making maybe the right decision."


On one hand, if you see something you KNOW is wrong, you should say something or stand up for what's right.

But on the other hand, it IS Michael Moore. Would anyone have taken this story as seriously if it was Moore who had first broken it? Or would people have dismissed it as a publicity stunt?

(edited by It's False on 14.6.04 1807)
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redsoxnation
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#2 Posted on 14.6.04 2239.03
Reposted on: 14.6.11 2241.25
According to the Geneva Convention, wouldn't Michael Moore and the soldiers he had filming this footage be considered war criminals, as they filmed abuse of prisoners of war for profit, apparently without attempting to halt such abuse from occurring?
Zeruel
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#3 Posted on 14.6.04 2304.16
Reposted on: 14.6.11 2304.23
    Originally posted by redsoxnation
    According to the Geneva Convention, wouldn't Michael Moore and the soldiers he had filming this footage be considered war criminals, as they filmed abuse of prisoners of war for profit, apparently without attempting to halt such abuse from occurring?


Did he actually profit by the footage of the abuse? I have not heard of any abuse footage being included in his flicks, but I haven't been paying any attention to the movie, just the controversy.

The news outlets technically profited by the pictures of abuse by the ad time they have sold, so in a round-about way, they could be considered war criminals too.



Grimis
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#4 Posted on 15.6.04 0633.35
Reposted on: 15.6.11 0634.07
Color me less than shocked that Moore would keep this under wraps for his personal gain. What a fat buffoon...
DrDirt
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#5 Posted on 15.6.04 0739.13
Reposted on: 15.6.11 0739.43
    Originally posted by Grimis
    Color me less than shocked that Moore would keep this under wraps for his personal gain. What a fat buffoon...


Not that I necessarily disagree but if he had shown it, would people then be accusing him of being unpatriotic and a traitor? Just asking.
Grimis
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#6 Posted on 15.6.04 0803.30
Reposted on: 15.6.11 0804.00
    Originally posted by DrDirt
    Not that I necessarily disagree but if he had shown it, would people then be accusing him of being unpatriotic and a traitor? Just asking.
More than likely. That's what happens when one puts themselve in such a position...
redsoxnation
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#7 Posted on 15.6.04 0828.12
Reposted on: 15.6.11 0829.02
    Originally posted by Zeruel
      Originally posted by redsoxnation
      According to the Geneva Convention, wouldn't Michael Moore and the soldiers he had filming this footage be considered war criminals, as they filmed abuse of prisoners of war for profit, apparently without attempting to halt such abuse from occurring?


    Did he actually profit by the footage of the abuse? I have not heard of any abuse footage being included in his flicks, but I haven't been paying any attention to the movie, just the controversy.

    The news outlets technically profited by the pictures of abuse by the ad time they have sold, so in a round-about way, they could be considered war criminals too.









So the Tom Brokaw's, Bill O'Reilly's and Dan Rather's of the world could be sent to prison? Anyone have the sheet music to Happy Days Are Here Again.
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#8 Posted on 15.6.04 1040.22
Reposted on: 15.6.11 1040.38
Poor Mikey has something else to bitch about now.

Damn those right-wing bastards at the MPAA. It's a conspiracy, I tells ya.
Barbwire Mike
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#9 Posted on 15.6.04 1110.16
Reposted on: 15.6.11 1112.14
Alright... time for some answers. Now who are you and what have you done to the real FOX NEWS?


    The crowd that gave Michael Moore's controversial "Fahrenheit 9/11" a standing ovation last night at the Ziegfeld Theatre premiere certainly didn't have to be encouraged at all to show their appreciation. From liberal radio host and writer Al Franken to actor/director Tim Robbins, Moore was in his element. But once "F9/11" gets to audiences beyond screenings, it won't be dependent on celebrities for approbation. It turns out to be a really brilliant piece of work, and a film that members of all political parties should see without fail.

    As much as some might try to marginalize this film as a screed against President George Bush, "F9/11" as we saw last night is a tribute to patriotism, to the American sense of duty, and at the same time a indictment of stupidity and avarice. Readers of this column may recall that I had a lot of problems with Moore's "Bowling for Columbine," particularly where I thought he took gratuitous shots at helpless targets like Charlton Heston. "Columbine" too easily succeeded by shooting fish in a barrel, as they used to say. Not so with "F9/11," which instead relies on lots of film footage and actual interviews to make its case against the war in Iraq and tell the story of the intertwining histories of the Bush and Bin Laden families.

    First, I know you want to know who came to the Ziegfeld, so here is just a partial list. Besides Franken and Robbins, Al Sharpton, Mike Myers, Tony Bennett, Glenn Close, Gretchen Mol (newly married over the weekend to director Todd Williams), Lori Singer, Tony Kushner, "Angela's Ashes" author Frank McCourt, Jill Krementz and Kurt Vonnegut, Lauren Bacall (chatting up a fully refurbished Lauren Hutton), Richard Gere, John McEnroe and Patti Smythe, former Carter cabinet member and ambassador Richard Holbrooke, Carson Daly, NBC's Jeff Zucker, a very pregnant Rory Kennedy, playwright Israel Horovitz, Macaulay Culkin, Philip Seymour Hoffman, Kyra Sedgwick, Linda Evangelista, Ed Bradley, Tom and Meredith Brokaw, director Barry Levinson, NBC anchor Brian Williams, Vernon Jordan, Eva Mendez, Sandra Bernhard and the always humorous Joy Behar.

    If that's not enough, how about Yoko Ono, accompanied by her son, Sean, who's let his hair grow out and is now sporting a bushy beard that makes him look like his late, beloved father John Lennon?

    And then, just to show you how much people wanted to see this film, there was Martha Stewart, looking terrific. I mean, talk about eclectic groups!

    Now, unless you've been living under a rock you know that this movie has been the cause of a lot of trouble. Miramax and Disney have gone to war over it, and "The Passion of the Christ" seems like "Mary Poppins" in retrospect. Before anyone's even seen it, there have been partisan debates over which way Moore may have spun this or that to get a desired effect.

    But, really, in the end, not seeing "F9/11" would be like allowing your first amendment rights to be abrogated, no matter whether you're a Republican or a Democrat. The film does Bush no favors, that's for sure, but it also finds an unexpectedly poignant and universal groove in the story of Lila Lipscombe, a Flint, Michigan mother who sends her kids into the Army for the opportunities it can provide just like the commercials say and lives to regret it. Lipscombe's story is so powerful, and so completely Middle American, that I think it will take Moore's critics by surprise. She will certainly move to tears everyone who encounters her.

    "F9/11" isn't perfect, and of course, there are leaps of logic sometimes. One set piece is about African American congressmen and women voting against the war with Iraq and wondering why there are no Senators to support them. Indeed, those absent senators include John Kerry, Hillary Clinton, and Ted Kennedy, among others, which Moore does not elaborate upon. At no point are liberals or Democrats taken to task for not speaking out against the war, and I would have liked to have seen that.

    On the other hand, there are more than enough moments that seemed to resonate with the huge Ziegfeld audience. The most indelible is President Bush's reaction to hearing on the morning of September 11, 2001, that the first plane has crashed into the World Trade Center. Bush was reading to a grade school class in Florida at that moment. Instead of jumping up and leaving, he instead sat in front of the class, with an unfortunate look of confusion, for nearly 11 minutes. Moore obtained the footage from a teacher at the school who videotaped the morning program. There Bush sits, with no access to his advisers, while New York is being viciously attacked. I guarantee you that no one who sees this film forgets this episode.

    More than even "The Passion of the Christ," "F9/11" is going to be a "see it for yourself" movie when it hits theaters on June 25. It simply cannot be missed, and I predict it will be a huge moneymaker. And that's where Disney's Michael Eisner comes in. Not releasing this film will turn out to be the curse of his career. When Eisner came into Disney years ago, the studio was at a low point. He turned it around with a revived animation department and comedy hits like "Pretty Woman" and "Down and Out in Beverly Hills." But Eisner's short-sightedness on many recent matters has been his undoing. And this last misadventure is one that will follow him right out the doors of the Magic Kingdom.

rockdotcom_2.0
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#10 Posted on 15.6.04 1734.39
Reposted on: 15.6.11 1735.39
Why does anyone care if Morre had it? Isnt it a bigger concern why the Government had the footage and just sat on it?
Joseph Ryder
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#11 Posted on 15.6.04 1854.09
Reposted on: 15.6.11 1854.22
    Originally posted by rockdotcom_2.0
    Why does anyone care if Morre had it? Isnt it a bigger concern why the Government had the footage and just sat on it?


That's a good question, but it's his own fault. Maybe if Moore ate less and wasn't so damn fat we could hold the government to the same standard.

I'm not saying Moore was right to sit on it, but if we're gonna call him a fatty because of it we should also look at those who were both sat on it AND were responsible. That's only fair...even if he is morbidly obese.
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#12 Posted on 15.6.04 1916.39
Reposted on: 15.6.11 1916.53
Um, has Michael Moore actually produced any film? Or is it a case of "I had that, I knew about it" with no real proof? Either way he was in a bad spot, he puts it out, people will jump on him for slamming Bush, he keeps it until later, people doubt him.
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#13 Posted on 16.6.04 0042.47
Reposted on: 16.6.11 0046.00
If Joe Nobody had discovered/heard of/knew about/actually shot this footage, whether or not they had kept it to themselves, would anybody care?

NOPE.

I dont see why it should be any different for Moore.
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#14 Posted on 16.6.04 0434.20
Reposted on: 16.6.11 0436.57
    Originally posted by Barbwire Mike
    The most indelible is President Bush's reaction to hearing on the morning of September 11, 2001, that the first plane has crashed into the World Trade Center. Bush was reading to a grade school class in Florida at that moment. Instead of jumping up and leaving, he instead sat in front of the class, with an unfortunate look of confusion, for nearly 11 minutes. Moore obtained the footage from a teacher at the school who videotaped the morning program. There Bush sits, with no access to his advisers, while New York is being viciously attacked. I guarantee you that no one who sees this film forgets this episode.


OK, I call bullshit on this. CNN or ABC had the footage of his photo-op with the kids, too. I even used it when editing our 9/11 memorial piece a year later. That's not a look of confusion. Hell, he's going into combat mode, silently rocking back and forth. I bet he's thinking, "Sons of bitches...sons of bitches..."

Plus, he was probably trying not to scare the kids. Hell, grant 'em a moment's peace...we were all scared soon enough. Alan Jackson even referred to the moment in the lyrics for "Where Were You?": "Teachin' a class/Full of innocent children..."

It was NOT an "unfortunate look of confusion." That's just somebody looking to slam Dubya by pointing and saying, "Look! He's not fighting terrorism! He sucks!"

Ye gods.
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#15 Posted on 16.6.04 0500.07
Reposted on: 16.6.11 0501.29
Plus, its not like he could have really done anything to prevent the second plane from slamming into the other tower.
11 minutes, even if it was that long, you cant even get a sit-rep in 11 minutes, much less ordered any kind of action that would have helped in any way whatsoever.
ThreepMe
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#16 Posted on 16.6.04 0832.27
Reposted on: 16.6.11 0832.34
    Originally posted by The Thrill
      Originally posted by Barbwire Mike
      The most indelible is President Bush's reaction to hearing on the morning of September 11, 2001, that the first plane has crashed into the World Trade Center. Bush was reading to a grade school class in Florida at that moment. Instead of jumping up and leaving, he instead sat in front of the class, with an unfortunate look of confusion, for nearly 11 minutes. Moore obtained the footage from a teacher at the school who videotaped the morning program. There Bush sits, with no access to his advisers, while New York is being viciously attacked. I guarantee you that no one who sees this film forgets this episode.


    OK, I call bullshit on this. CNN or ABC had the footage of his photo-op with the kids, too. I even used it when editing our 9/11 memorial piece a year later. That's not a look of confusion. Hell, he's going into combat mode, silently rocking back and forth. I bet he's thinking, "Sons of bitches...sons of bitches..."

    Plus, he was probably trying not to scare the kids. Hell, grant 'em a moment's peace...we were all scared soon enough. Alan Jackson even referred to the moment in the lyrics for "Where Were You?": "Teachin' a class/Full of innocent children..."

    It was NOT an "unfortunate look of confusion." That's just somebody looking to slam Dubya by pointing and saying, "Look! He's not fighting terrorism! He sucks!"

    Ye gods.


I think the idea here is...

Why take 11 minutes to sit there and DO nothing?

How many executive orders can be given in 11 minutes?

How much information from his advisers can be given in 11 minutes?

Why does it take 11 minutes to, you know, take action?

Would you wait 11 minutes if you watched someone punch your kid/kill your brother/blow up your house?

Would you just sit there dumbfounded?

If he, maybe, just politely stood up, took leave of the class room and started gathering information, giving orders, etc, maybe this wouldn't be an issue.

BTW, Thrill, since when does it take 11 minutes to go, "Sons of bitches...sons of bitches?" That's what special people do. What did he say next? "I'm definitely not wearing underwear."

And Stagger, of course he couldn't have stopped the second plane in 11 minutes. No one even knew about it.

But...He could have done something...How long does it take to order a flight of F-14s? Last I checked, it takes about 3 seconds to say, "scramble some F-14s!" How about ordering some federal aid in the way of some rescue or provisions? Maybe get some federal agency out there to help restore order. Just something!

How much could have been actually done in 11 minutes? Probably not MUCH that would have made a huge difference...But doing NOTHING is worse...

Doing nothing = sucks

That's the point.

But I will cut him a bit of slack, maybe all the months of vacation leading up to 9/11 made him a bit slow. Or maybe it was the alcoholism or even the coke habit. [/sarcasm]
rockdotcom_2.0
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#17 Posted on 16.6.04 0851.21
Reposted on: 16.6.11 0851.30
Ive always wondered why didnt he get up and leave immedialely after he was informed, but I dont know what he was told.

Was he told that an Airplane had crashed into one the WTC in NYC? That in itself is a tragedy but it doesnt scream national emergency. So him sitting there thinking about it doesnt seem out of the ordinary.

If he was told that TERRORISTS have hijacked an aircraft and crashed it AND there are more terrorists in control of planes then maybe he should have gotten up and left. Then maybe you can say lets "scramble some F-14s." But then again if he was told that by his advisors, then it wouldnt be his choice anymore. If they knew it was terrorism or some kind of coordinated attack then the Secret Service would grab him and carry him away from wherever he was.


And the President doesnt have to give the order to "scramble F-14s." If NORAD detects or suspects any type of aerial assault or attack on North America they can order planes into action. They dont wait for the Presidents approval.
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#18 Posted on 16.6.04 0856.07
Reposted on: 16.6.11 0856.09
    Originally posted by rockdotcom_2.0
    Ive always wondered why didnt he get up and leave immedialely after he was informed, but I dont know what he was told.

    Was he told that an Airplane had crashed into one the WTC in NYC? That in itself is a tragedy but it doesnt scream national emergency. So him sitting there thinking about it doesnt seem out of the ordinary.

    If he was told that TERRORISTS have hijacked an aircraft and crashed it AND there are more terrorists in control of planes then maybe he should have gotten up and left. Then maybe you can say lets "scramble some F-14s." But then again if he was told that by his advisors, then it wouldnt be his choice anymore. If they knew it was terrorism or some kind of coordinated attack then the Secret Service would grab him and carry him away from wherever he was.


    And the President doesnt have to give the order to "scramble F-14s." If NORAD detects or suspects any type of aerial assault or attack on North America they can order planes into action. They dont wait for the Presidents approval.


Scrambling some F-14's isn't the only thing that could have been done, that was just one example. There is a plethora of things that could have been done in either of the scenarios you propose.

And I know that NORAD or some other military official could have made the same order. Dubya isn't the only guy who can do anything.

But that doesn't excuse Dubya from just sitting there like a lost 5 year old in Wal-Mart.

edit: removed an introductory phrase

(edited by ThreepMe on 16.6.04 0657)
RYDER FAKIN
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#19 Posted on 16.6.04 0912.32
Reposted on: 16.6.11 0912.50
But...He could have done something...How long does it take to order a flight of F-14s? Last I checked, it takes about 3 seconds to say, "scramble some F-14s!" How about ordering some federal aid in the way of some rescue or provisions? Maybe get some federal agency out there to help restore order. Just something!

How about maintaining calm? When was the last time we were attacked in this manner? Is there a blueprint on how to handle the World Trade Center being bombed? Had that ever happened before? Well, YES! It had! What did Clinton do when it happened in 1993?...Zilch. Well, he talked a bunch and made empty threats...

Clinton 1993: "I would plead with the American people and the good people of New York to keep your courage up and go on about your lives. I would discourage the American people from overreacting to this," Clinton said.

If anyone can find out EXACTLY what Clinton was doing when the attack happened, please post. Or let's make a MOVIE! We have NC-17 to work with...

How much could have been actually done in 11 minutes? Probably not MUCH that would have made a huge difference...But doing NOTHING is worse...

Doing nothing = sucks


Yes, it does. Burying your head in the sand until it happens again does too...

That's the point.

The point is - if you want to play the hindsight game, the Clinton Administration in 8 years of doing nothing despite numerous attacks is a hell of a lot more guilty re: 9/11 than Bush spending 11 minutes not wanting to freak out a bunch of school kids on one of the most tragic days in American History. Michael Moore, obviously, seems to disagree...

But I will cut him a bit of slack, maybe all the months of vacation leading up to 9/11 made him a bit slow. Or maybe it was the alcoholism or even the coke habit. [/sarcasm]

Or maybe if a proactive approach to this was taken when it mattered, we wouldn't have to deal with 9/11 or put up with the swill that Moore is pimping. At least the Oscars have lost their meaning...anyone want to bet 1) Moore will win and 2) Bush will be in office when he does?

FLEA
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#20 Posted on 16.6.04 0921.30
Reposted on: 16.6.11 0922.11
    Originally posted by RYDER FAKIN
    anyone want to bet 1) Moore will win and 2) Bush will be in office when he does?


I'll take both those bets. "Super Size Me" will win Best Documentary two months into the Kerry administration.
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