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The 7 - Pro Wrestling - Cole & Tazz vs JR and Lawler
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#1 Posted on 26.2.05 1251.54
Reposted on: 26.2.12 1252.38
Not wrestling, because that would possibly be the worst match of all time (though funny for sure).

I was just wondering which duo people considered better commentators. I've always preferred Tazz and Michael Cole to King and JR, because they're not fat/old/cowboys, and Tazz's offhand corrections of Cole's move calls are always funny, along with the occasional references to the RAW commentators ("...where's your cowboy hat?") and general humorous quips. But there have been a few recent moments on RAW that have made me warm to the old guys more. Specifically, King asking JR if he'd ever tried the 'Simon System' to the reply: "Do i look like i've tried it? If it's not barbequed or chicken-fried i'm not going for it", then, in the same match, when King remarked on the ref not allowing the seemingly unexplainable action of Dean grabbing his training bag while in the Walls of Jericho, JR dispensed with the bullshit in phenomenal style with "Why would he get his gym bag? That makes no sense".
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BigSteve
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#2 Posted on 26.2.05 1408.58
Reposted on: 26.2.12 1412.47
I think that the gravelly voiced JR is the best of all. He knows a lot about the wrestling business because he has been in it for at least two decades (as opposed to Michael Cole and other announcers who aren't "wrestling guys"). I would rather have JR call a main event than anyone else in the business. Yeah, he uses a lot of cliches, but that's one of the things that I find great about him.

Michael is not one of my favorites. I know that a lot of people just bash him all of the time, but I really think that he does lack genuine emotion. I don't really blame that on him so much as I blame it on WWE for not hiring guys that have a truly love for the business (The only other play by play guy they have that seems like he is really knowledgeable and a big fan of wrestling is Josh Matthews on Velocity. I really liked when he and Demott were a team).

Tazz is great as well. When there is a big match going on, I feel that he is a great commentator because he really does a nice job explaining the psychology of the match, and he really treats it as if it's a legitimate competition. I also think that when he is on his game, he really does a good job bringing out the natural announcer talent that Michael Cole does have. Tazz is funny, but he knows when it's time to call the match and when it's time to make jokes. He also does a good job as a subtle heel commentator without being over the top about it like some people.

Jerry Lawler is the worst of the bunch, IMO. His schtick is so over the top that it's just annoying. He loves all the heels, yeah, we get it. He loves puppies. OK let's move on please. I remember before he left, he was great. I don't know why he hasn't been as good lately, but if he got back to the way he did it for the first ten years, he'd be fine. He's just too busy playing a character to actually be a good announcer, and I think that his work hurts peoples perception of JR at times.

If I had to pick the unit I like best, I guess I'd go with JR and King, but the clear "A" team would be JR and Tazz.
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#3 Posted on 26.2.05 1429.35
Reposted on: 26.2.12 1432.25
I'd say Michael Cole & Tazz. I love Jim Ross, and definitley think he's the best of the bunch (well, him and Tazz are neck & neck right now), but I'm very much sick of Jerry Lawler. His schtick was great back in 1999. However, when Paul Heyman replaced him it was obvious that the change was needed, and I really wish they would have never changed back. Paul was great in that role, and Jerry's act is tired.

I'm not a huge fan of Michael Cole, but he's improved, and I think he and Tazz have great chemistry. Tazz is the best color man in the business, which is a true compliment, because when he first started I, along with many others, thought he was god-awful. However, he has improved by leaps-and-bounds.

I'd really have to say SmackDown wins this battle, although a simple change in the RAW announcing (getting rid of Lawler) could change that.
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#4 Posted on 26.2.05 1449.41
Reposted on: 26.2.12 1454.33
I think it's time for both J.R. and Lawler to be phased out. I know that Lawler ruins any team he's with, but you can't blame him for Jim Ross not knowing the names of roughly 89% of the roster if he gets too excited during a match and is trying to read his cue cards of what stupid Oklahoma saying he should force in, and God help us all if two guys in the same match are named "Chris". I'm also tierd of him playing some retarded character that doesn't know what's going on at any given time, so just screams some version of "Bah Gawd King, what's he doing?!?" as if everyone at home hasn't figured out that Simon Dean keeps heavy objects in his workout bag and hits people with it (I don't watch Dean's segments, so I'm just making up an example that may or may not exist).

The biggest problem I find with the RAW team is that you try to sell the product to a young, hip, merchandise buying audience, and yet the two people you give the most air time to for the entire show are older than my grandfather. Wrestling is about image and perception more than anything, especially in the WWE, and yet they keep these two anchors dragging them down.

And I know that J.R. has been around forever and does have more wrestling in him than Cole, but that shouldn't excuse the fact that he just can't do the job anymore without becoming a parody of who he used to be. Hell, Hulk Hogan has been around for a long time too and means a lot to a lot of our memories, but that doesn't mean that he should still be the #1 wrestler in the WWE. His time at the top is over, he had his nostagia run, and he was phased out to give younger and fresher guys a chance. Smackdown's got a good team now. Now it's time they start rebuilding RAW's.


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#5 Posted on 26.2.05 1456.44
Reposted on: 26.2.12 1457.09
One of the best things about the last two Royal Rumbles is the pairing of JR and Tazz because it really forces JR to step up.

Cole is extremely overrated and I can't help but pick out his weird speech patterns after reading Jeb's "Knee of Billy Gunn" column (thanks, Jeb). He's not a big match announcer and he can't get tragic events over any better than whining, "It's a damn shame!"

JR is still the money guy. King is still a load, but I love their chemistry, especially when joking about Lawler's love life.
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#6 Posted on 26.2.05 1533.23
Reposted on: 26.2.12 1537.55
    Originally posted by asteroidboy
    King is still a load, but I love their chemistry, especially when joking about Lawler's love life.


One of my favorite recent quotes:

JR: It's Valentine's day and I want to say hello to my wonderful wife, ***(can't remember). I have to buy her a gift.
King: I guess I have to go out and buy 16 gifts.


Overall, JR is still the best. He knows his moves, he gets excited, and he can get over the suckest of them all.
Overall, Tazz is my favorite. He's a wrestler so he knows psychology, moves, skills, attributes, all that good stuff.

That's why the Rumble is so cool is the pairing of them.

What if you switched JR/King to Smackdown and MC/Tazz to RAW. That would be interesting.
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#7 Posted on 26.2.05 1549.39
Reposted on: 26.2.12 1559.03
Yeah, that would be an interesting switch. Sometimes I wonder how much JR & Lawler's problems come from being on the live show, where every slip up becomes obvious.
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#8 Posted on 26.2.05 1607.22
Reposted on: 26.2.12 1612.31

    (The only other play by play guy they have that seems like he is really knowledgeable and a big fan of wrestling is Josh Matthews on Velocity. I really liked when he and Demott were a team)


Josh Matthews does always seem good on camera, and i don't think he overplays the little-intimidated-guy role too much. That brings up another point about the Afterburn/Velocity/Experience etc shows: how did Ivory get to present anything; she's the most annoying person in the whole business, even Dawn Marie's constant bitching would be better than her.
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#9 Posted on 26.2.05 1758.57
Reposted on: 26.2.12 1759.01
Fuck JR. He can't get the names right, and that ALWAYS bothers the hell out of me. In the Royal Rumble, he called Charlie Haas "Rene Dupree" at least a dozen times. It wasn't a mistake, he had no idea who the guy was. And everybody to him is "Chris Jericho". I even watched some older tapes from a few years back and he had the same problem. He screws up once, and then CONTINUES to use the wrong name for a person. Either he doesn't realize who these people are, or he says "ah fuck it, maybe they won't notice if I dont admit it's a mistake".

He does try, but to me when he says things to try and make something "special" he really appears to be TRYING. It looks forced to me. And you can easily tell when he's trying to get garbage over. You're like "oh I get it". JR is a tool.
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#10 Posted on 27.2.05 2037.18
Reposted on: 27.2.12 2037.41
Yeah, I have to go with the ever-accelerating "JR and King suck" sentiment. JR doesn't know a single name of a single one of Edge's signature moves. The submission is called the Edgeacator, the DDT is called the Edge-e-cution, and that reverse X-Factor thing is the Edge-O-Matic. His name is in the fucking signatures, how hard can that be to master? And that's a guy they're pushing right now. God save anyone who isn't doing anything at the moment.

It's hard for a guy to get over and take it to the next level when his signature moves are called modified slams all the time.

Cole's manufactured, but his rapport with Tazz is always worth tuning in for. Lawler is just utter garbage, and I disagree with Big Steve, Lawler doesn't like the heels enough. He should be siding with the Arabs right now, in my opinion. Jesse Ventura was sympathetic to the USSR and the foreign heels of that era, and it was hilarious and fun. Now WWE must force everyone what to think, and it's vomit-inducing.
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#11 Posted on 27.2.05 2130.50
Reposted on: 27.2.12 2132.28
In a perfect world, I'd have JR and Tazz announcing. As far as teams go, I'd take JR and King over Cole and Tazz, though I agree that JR and King have declined in their effectiveness. Plain and simple, JR is able to get that "big moment" over, and Cole is not. Could you imagine Cole announcing the Benoit title win at WM? I would rather have a sub-par guy who gets genuinely excited and makes big moments seem big than a guy whos excitement sounds so fake and acts so lame (even thought he gets guys' names right).
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#12 Posted on 27.2.05 2329.09
Reposted on: 27.2.12 2331.01
    Originally posted by geemoney
    In a perfect world, I'd have JR and Tazz announcing. As far as teams go, I'd take JR and King over Cole and Tazz, though I agree that JR and King have declined in their effectiveness. Plain and simple, JR is able to get that "big moment" over, and Cole is not. Could you imagine Cole announcing the Benoit title win at WM? I would rather have a sub-par guy who gets genuinely excited and makes big moments seem big than a guy whos excitement sounds so fake and acts so lame (even thought he gets guys' names right).


I'm not sure the perfect world would see Tazz and JR, as I think JR's only value is in those "big match situations". I do think JR is more emotional and passionate than Cole overall, but as a team, Tazz mixes well with the nerdy Cole and I would much rather sit through them commentating an event. Maybe bring JR in for the big "main event finish" or something. Unless that main event happens to be Chris Benoit vs. Chris Jericho...then GOD HELP US ALL with following JR's confused call. He's pretty much useless beyond that. The name thing is fairly important to most of the card.


(edited by FurryHippie on 27.2.05 2132)
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#13 Posted on 27.2.05 2332.19
Reposted on: 27.2.12 2335.45
Both JR/Lawlor and Tazz/Cole have their good points and bad points, I happen to catch more of Raw than SD!, so I am partial to the Raw team, but I went on record a while ago saying Tazz is the best in the business.

http://the-w.com/thread.php/id=17444

At the same time, I gotta give JR/King credit for helping get Hassan/Daivari over - I don't know how well Tazz/Cole could've handled this one. My suspicion is that they would not have done as well.

I disagree with FurryHippie. One thing JR/King do well is getting crap storylines over - at least to the point of letting us know what the WWE wants us to be looking for, so we don't mind as much when the storyline just sucks - I get the impression that even if the whole arena knows they would rather watch something else, they're better at acting happy to play their roles talking about crap. Separate the crappy announcing from the crappy writing.

I don't care as much about JR not knowing the names of moves - especially since we NEVER hear a recap interview from any of the wrestlers saying they hit such and such move, it was set up by whatever, and so on and so forth. Why couldn't we ever hear Edge explain about his moves - it would seem to me this could be done very well on the obscenely expensive Jeritron 5000. I'd love to see Edge talking about a spear, only to be interrupted by Rhyno laughing about how his GOAR GORE GOARE is ten times better - perhaps to set up a match later that night or next week.

Years ago Sgt. Slaughter bragged about the COBRA Clutch, the original Rock, Don Muraco, talked about his Asiatic spike, Pedro Morales with the Boston Crab, lots of folks talked about figure four leg locks or sharpshooters, and even Bob Backlund and his chicken wing, or Black Jack Mulligan and the CLAW. Guys who had more than one way to finish opponents off, spent a few minutes getting their characters over by talking about their moves. Why should we care if the announcers don't know the right names if we never hear the wrestler (or their manager/valet) talk up their moves to begin with?

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#14 Posted on 27.2.05 2336.29
Reposted on: 27.2.12 2337.03
I know JR has other obligations for his job or whatever, but it just seems if you're gonna be an announcer, and not only that but the BEST announcer, it's just the very basics that you get the NAMES of the wrestlers and their moves down. It's just logical. It's kind of like how The Rock was "the best" overall, but it will always piss me off that he never bothered to learn how to properly excecute moves like the belly to belly suplex, sharpshooter, russian leg sweep, etc. Same concept with JR. He may be "the best in the biz" but with the lack of basic knowledge of the actual people and moves he's calling, to me it seems there's a lot to improve on.
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#15 Posted on 28.2.05 1617.53
Reposted on: 28.2.12 1622.17
    Originally posted by too-old-now
    Both JR/Lawlor and Tazz/Cole have their good points and bad points, I happen to catch more of Raw than SD!, so I am partial to the Raw team, but I went on record a while ago saying Tazz is the best in the business.

    http://the-w.com/thread.php/id=17444

    At the same time, I gotta give JR/King credit for helping get Hassan/Daivari over - I don't know how well Tazz/Cole could've handled this one. My suspicion is that they would not have done as well.

    I disagree with FurryHippie. One thing JR/King do well is getting crap storylines over - at least to the point of letting us know what the WWE wants us to be looking for, so we don't mind as much when the storyline just sucks - I get the impression that even if the whole arena knows they would rather watch something else, they're better at acting happy to play their roles talking about crap. Separate the crappy announcing from the crappy writing.

    I don't care as much about JR not knowing the names of moves - especially since we NEVER hear a recap interview from any of the wrestlers saying they hit such and such move, it was set up by whatever, and so on and so forth. Why couldn't we ever hear Edge explain about his moves - it would seem to me this could be done very well on the obscenely expensive Jeritron 5000. I'd love to see Edge talking about a spear, only to be interrupted by Rhyno laughing about how his GOAR GORE GOARE is ten times better - perhaps to set up a match later that night or next week.

    Years ago Sgt. Slaughter bragged about the COBRA Clutch, the original Rock, Don Muraco, talked about his Asiatic spike, Pedro Morales with the Boston Crab, lots of folks talked about figure four leg locks or sharpshooters, and even Bob Backlund and his chicken wing, or Black Jack Mulligan and the CLAW. Guys who had more than one way to finish opponents off, spent a few minutes getting their characters over by talking about their moves. Why should we care if the announcers don't know the right names if we never hear the wrestler (or their manager/valet) talk up their moves to begin with?





I actually agree with this to some extent. Even before I could really identify the move with the name, I knew the names of my favorite wrestlers' moves. I knew DiBiase had the Million Dollar Dream, I knew Jake Roberts had the DDT... I didn't really remember what these moves looked like, but I knew that those guys were "masters of them."
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#16 Posted on 2.3.05 1956.35
Reposted on: 2.3.12 1959.01
    Originally posted by sentonBOMB
    I actually agree with this to some extent. Even before I could really identify the move with the name, I knew the names of my favorite wrestlers' moves. I knew DiBiase had the Million Dollar Dream, I knew Jake Roberts had the DDT... I didn't really remember what these moves looked like, but I knew that those guys were "masters of them."


I know what you're saying, but remember that that was a time where the promos were mostly done in the back with one wrestler standing in front of a blue screen with nothing to do but talk about himself. Sometimes they just did random promos that were filmed months in advance so they had to just talk about how great they and their moves were.

Nowadays the reason that they are out there talking is to set up a match for later in the night or the next couple weeks. It's very specific with very little time given. Without the promo time existing like it used to, it becomes the obligation of Jim Ross and Lawler to take over the part of getting the wrestler over on the mic.

Of course, it's also Jim Ross's freakin' job to know the wrestler's names and moves! If I go to McDonald's and order a Big Mac, I don't expect to get a carton of fries and have the other customers tell me about how great t he worker used to be, and how he when he DOES remember the difference between a burger and fries, that he's the guy you want to have make it.

And I still say that Michael Cole shows more emotion than Jim Ross during those "big moments", because Jim Ross yells that same goddamned stuff everytime. No matter what's going on, his calls of matches is almost identical. Everything's damned to hell, everything's "I tell you King", and I'm more than a little scared that soon everyone will have a psychotic midsection. When he's just repeating the exact same screaming you heard him do at that point of the last 15 PPVS, it's not emotion, it's just scripted acting. Especially when he probably called them "Chris" then too.


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