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The W - Pro Wrestling - #675 RAW 05/01 Play by Play report (Page 3)
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Trunzo
Cotechino








Since: 25.7.03
From: New York City

Since last post: 565 days
Last activity: 2 days
#41 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.00
So, who else was uncontrollably laughing at the 2 black guys and their girl friend, who were sitting first row behind Joey and Jerry in the shoving match? Their antics were priceless.
JustinShapiro
Scrapple
Moderator








Since: 12.12.01
From: Pittsburgh, PA

Since last post: 9 days
Last activity: 24 min.
#42 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.46
Oh yes. I 'marked out' when the one guy actually, audibly used the phrase "Oh no he didn't."
The 5th Horseman
Kolbasz








Since: 23.10.02
From: Myrtle Beach, South Carolina

Since last post: 3005 days
Last activity: 2994 days
#43 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.04
    Originally posted by JohnHayduke
      Originally posted by The 5th Horseman
      I hated the Spirit Squad when they first started the gimmick, but while I'm still not thrilled with the gimmick, the wrestlers are entertaining in the roles so far.


    If they're good in their roles isn't the gimmick good?

    I love the Squad. There are somethings I would do differently with them but so-far-so-good in my mind.

    Any "good" gimmick or angle can be made to suck. Any "bad" gimmick can be made to rule! Do you remember how people complained about the way Angle was being brought into the WWF? JR even addressed it in his column at the time.

You contradicted yourself and answered your own question. No, just because someone is good in the role and makes it work short term, it doesn't mean the gimmick is good. Dusty Rhodes made his polka dot wearing "common man" gimmick work, but it wasn't a good gimmick. It wasn't even meant to be a good gimmick. It was designed to humiliate Dusty Rhodes, but he made it work short term.

You mentioned Kurt Angle and I don't see your point. He didn't really have a gimmick, as in male cheerleader, porn star, vampire, etc. He was advertised as an Olympic gold medalist, which isn't really a gimmick. It's just what he really is and the reason he got his job from Vince. However, Kurt did have to shed his comedy persona to move up to the next level. Same as HHH had to shed his comedic "Connecticut blue blood" gimmick to move up to a serious competitor.

A male cheerleader gimmick, especially as a group, is very limited and won't be taken too seriously, since it is purely comedic by nature.

These guys seem to have a lot of athletic ability and charisma. They are doing a good job with the roles now, but they can't be stuck in this gimmick for too long or they are just being wasted and stagnated.
CRZ
Big Brother
Administrator








Since: 9.12.01
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#44 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.87
UMAGA RULES

SHARPYO DROOLZ



CRZ
Destrucity
Boerewors








Since: 21.4.04
From: New York, NY, USA

Since last post: 2898 days
Last activity: 2806 days
#45 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.08
    Originally posted by JustinShapiro
      Originally posted by Destrucity
      Much like his beloved Democratic Party, from this point forward, Foley will get nothing from me until he starts actually doing something.


    Yeah really. Like ... do a great promo about the great match he had, to set up what will probably be another great match (probably at the ECW show and not next week). What's keeping him?
Hey, I don't sit around and make executive decisions about what bores me. I didn't sit on the couch yesterday, pause Raw and spend a few minutes thinking about whether or not I should fast foward -- I just fast forwarded. Either I'm bored or I'm not. It certainly doesn't seem like I'm the only one. Maybe Foley's promo was 10 times better than Styles' -- I'll never know, because I didn't watch. He's lost my trust. If his next what-an-incredible-shock appearance occurs after more than a month off, he appears in a compelling scenario, or I catch him doing something out of the ordinary while I fast forward, he'll get another chance.

    Originally posted by JustinShapiro

      Paul Heyman would absolutely have done male cheerleaders (perhaps in more than one sense!)


    Paul Heyman is married and has a child.
I have no idea whether the rumors of Paul Heyman's homosexuality are true, nor do I care, but what I do know is that that doesn't prove anything.

http://www.nndb.com/people/088/000024016/
http://www.nndb.com/people/655/000026577/
http://www.nndb.com/people/459/000022393/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vito_Spatafore

(Edit to add the incredibly awesome and not entirely un-Heymanesque Vito Spatafore)


(edited by Destrucity on 2.5.06 1505)


Sir, a jelly donut, sir!
JustinShapiro
Scrapple
Moderator








Since: 12.12.01
From: Pittsburgh, PA

Since last post: 9 days
Last activity: 24 min.
#46 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.46

    He's lost my trust. If his next what-an-incredible-shock appearance occurs after more than a month off, he appears in a compelling scenario, or I catch him doing something out of the ordinary while I fast forward, he'll get another chance.


By all means, skip what you want, but all I'm saying is that everything he's done since Saturday Night's Main Event has been great. Compelling as heck and, in fact, extra-ordinary. Prior to then, especially the Carlito feud, that was far from top notch Mick Foley. But after the best match at Wrestlemania and two of the best promos on Raw all year ... I'd say you have trust issues.


    I have no idea whether the rumors of Paul Heyman's homosexuality are true, nor do I care, but what I do know is that that doesn't prove anything.


Sorry. Why let reality get in the way of inside jokes repeated on message boards until they're considered true.

(edited by JustinShapiro on 2.5.06 1844)
tlmkr38
Bauerwurst








Since: 15.12.03
From: West Tennessee

Since last post: 2593 days
Last activity: 2489 days
#47 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00
"The Odd Squad could be a fun regular unit to challenge the Squad for the titles. I think the fans might actually dig goofy face Gene Snitsky. Could all of the Bischoff references tonight could be a hint that he's coming back as Raw GM."

The only problems I have with the Odd Squad getting squashed is basically my memory. I have one.I seem to remember when Snitzky was stommping a mudhole in most anyone who got in the ring with him, even giving Kane a good battle or two. Now we have this?? Maybe I am just too picky but I have always thought that if you could beat the heck out of a guy 6 months ago you should still be able to at least give them a good fight now.

Maybe i am just getting too old for this. Oh well still we watch..





Whatever
Kevintripod
Boudin blanc








Since: 11.5.03
From: Mount Pleasant, Pa.

Since last post: 1 day
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#48 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.14
    Originally posted by BigFredMachine
    He was bashing WWE fans. The fans who ate up the crotch chops and gang wars and Chyna and Road Dogg's singalong and all that sucked about wrestling in the late 90s



Wrestling "sucked" in the late 90's ?

Wasn't wrestling during the late 90's considered by many at its peak and had its highest tv ratings during that time period ?



"Oh it's on like Donkey Kong." - Stifler, American Wedding
JohnHayduke
Polska kielbasa








Since: 17.10.02
From: Moab, Utah

Since last post: 2769 days
Last activity: 646 days
#49 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.50
(Lots of edits because I keep making spelling and grammar mistakes. I need to head to bed.)
    Originally posted by The 5th Horseman
    You contradicted yourself and answered your own question. No, just because someone is good in the role and makes it work short term, it doesn't mean the gimmick is good. Dusty Rhodes made his polka dot wearing "common man" gimmick work, but it wasn't a good gimmick. It wasn't even meant to be a good gimmick. It was designed to humiliate Dusty Rhodes, but he made it work short term.


I didn't contradict myself.
Funny you should mention a member of the Rhodes family because I was thinking of Goldust when I was reading your original post.

    Originally posted by The 5th Horseman
    You mentioned Kurt Angle and I don't see your point. He didn't really have a gimmick, as in male cheerleader, porn star, vampire, etc. He was advertised as an Olympic gold medalist, which isn't really a gimmick. It's just what he really is and the reason he got his job from Vince. However, Kurt did have to shed his comedy persona to move up to the next level.


Do you remember the promos for Kurt or the reaction to them?
Dan Severn was brought in as a legit tough guy from MMA and tanked.
Ken Shamrock was given the same "gimmick" (their real life jobs) and held a title and was cheered. They were both the same people but had different reactions. Then there was the angle with his "sister."
Steve Blackman...

    Originally posted by The 5th Horseman
    A male cheerleader gimmick, especially as a group, is very limited and won't be taken too seriously, since it is purely comedic by nature.

    These guys seem to have a lot of athletic ability and charisma. They are doing a good job with the roles now, but they can't be stuck in this gimmick for too long or they are just being wasted and stagnated.


I don't see a group that reminds me of the stables of the past as a bad thing. You see comedy and I see good team work and clever heel behaviour.

Do I need to list all the crappy gimmicks One Man Gang had to prove my point that here? He was "over" and held the tag team titles as Akeem - The African Deam.

(edited by JohnHayduke on 2.5.06 2047)

(edited by JohnHayduke on 2.5.06 2048)
The 5th Horseman
Kolbasz








Since: 23.10.02
From: Myrtle Beach, South Carolina

Since last post: 3005 days
Last activity: 2994 days
#50 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.04
    Originally posted by JohnHayduke
      Originally posted by The 5th Horseman
      You contradicted yourself and answered your own question. No, just because someone is good in the role and makes it work short term, it doesn't mean the gimmick is good. Dusty Rhodes made his polka dot wearing "common man" gimmick work, but it wasn't a good gimmick. It wasn't even meant to be a good gimmick. It was designed to humiliate Dusty Rhodes, but he made it work short term.


    I didn't contradict myself.
    Funny you should mention a member of the Rhodes family because I was thinking of Goldust when I was reading your original post.

You did contradict yourself. You started off by rhetorically asking "If they're good in their roles isn't the gimmick good?" Then, in your final paragraph, you stated "Any 'bad' gimmick can be made to rule!" Well, for a bad gimmick to rule, it still has to be a bad gimmick.

And, as for your use of the Goldust gimmick as an example, I wouldn't call that a bad gimmick. That gimmick of the over the top gay character spooking his opponent with unorthodox and unusual actions has been done many times before. Think Gorgeous George, "Exotic" Adrian Street, and Adrian Adonis.
    Originally posted by JohnHayduke
    Do you remember the promos for Kurt or the reaction to them?
    Dan Severn was brought in as a legit tough guy from MMA and tanked.
    Ken Shamrock was given the same "gimmick" (their real life jobs) and held a title and was cheered. They were both the same people but had different reactions. Then there was the angle with his "sister."

I don't see how you are arguing anything against my statements here. You've given an example of 2 people using the same role and one succeeding (Shamrock) while the other failed (Severn). I never said the Spirit Squad were failures. Actually, I said they have been entertaining with the gimmick so far.

And, once again, it's not a good comparison to the male cheerleader gimmick. Legit tough guy isn't something I'd call a bad gimmick. Finlay seems to be doing very well with that role right now.

Similarly, if you want to call Kurt Angle being promoted as an Olympic Gold Medalist a gimmick, then I wouldn't classify that as a bad gimmick either. I don't see any connection between Olympic Gold Medal wrestler and male cheerleaders.
    Originally posted by JohnHayduke
    I don't see a group that reminds me of the stables of the past as a bad thing. You see comedy and I see good team work and clever heel behaviour.

    Do I need to list all the crappy gimmicks One Man Gang had to prove my point that here? He was "over" and held the tag team titles as Akeem - The African Deam.

Yet again, you seem to be ignoring the fact that I said they have made the gimmick work for them so far and that I have been entertained by them. However, with that said, they still are used as a comedy act. Needing 5 guys to hold the tag team belts in a dead tag team division isn't exactly proving that they are taken seriously. And, a pack of male cheerleaders doesn't compare to vicious and feared groups like the Four Horsemen, DX, and the Freebirds.

One Man Gang is not a good comparison either. He used the gimmick of a HUGE mean guy with tatoos on the side of his head. Not even close to male cheerleaders dancing around doing corny cheers.

Akeem the African Dream turned One Man Gang into a comedy act. He was only a tag team champ because he was teamed with the much more over Big Bossman.
oldschoolhero
Knackwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: nWo Country

Since last post: 1988 days
Last activity: 1922 days
#51 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.37
    Originally posted by Kevintripod
      Originally posted by BigFredMachine
      He was bashing WWE fans. The fans who ate up the crotch chops and gang wars and Chyna and Road Dogg's singalong and all that sucked about wrestling in the late 90s



    Wrestling "sucked" in the late 90's ?

    Wasn't wrestling during the late 90's considered by many at its peak and had its highest tv ratings during that time period ?


Sports entertainment was at its peak in the late 90s. "Wrestling", at least the kind of gimmick-lite workrate-intensive wrestling that Styles seemed to be talking about Monday night, was in the doldrums til The Awesome Year Of Awesomeness 2000 came along and rocked us all.



To those who say people wouldn't look; they wouldn't be interested; they're too complacent, indifferent and insulated, I can only reply: There is, in one reporter's opinion, considerable evidence against that contention. But even if they are right, what have they got to lose? Because if they are right, and this instrument is good for nothing but to entertain, amuse and insulate, then the tube is flickering now and we will soon see that the whole struggle is lost. This instrument can teach, it can illuminate; yes, and it can even inspire. But it can do so only to the extent that humans are determined to use it to those ends. Otherwise it is merely wires, and lights, in a box.-Edward R. Murrow
CTX
Italian








Since: 11.5.02

Since last post: 35 days
Last activity: 2 days
#52 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.52
    Originally posted by JohnHayduke
    He was "over" and held the tag team titles as Akeem - The African Deam.

Err, no he didn't. Not ever.



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JohnHayduke
Polska kielbasa








Since: 17.10.02
From: Moab, Utah

Since last post: 2769 days
Last activity: 646 days
#53 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.50
    Originally posted by The 5th Horseman
    as for your use of the Goldust gimmick as an example, I wouldn't call that a bad gimmick. That gimmick of the over the top gay character spooking his opponent with unorthodox and unusual actions has been done many times before. Think Gorgeous George, "Exotic" Adrian Street, and Adrian Adonis.


I'll just say, I don't think there are any "bad" gimmicks just bad wrestlers. There are a few gimmicks that make me go WTF though. This is why I used quotes around the words "good" and "bad" when I wrote them out. I was trying to think like you which I guess I wasn't doing very well.

A lot of people poo-pooed Goldust when he was first introduced. On a related note, if the cheerleader gimmick had been successfully used in the past would it be be a "good" gimmick now?

The cheerleader gimmick is going to change over time that's a given. Everybody in that group appears to be very talented so they'll probably want to break that stable up which probably means they'll be tweaking some of the members and giving them individual personalities. I'll miss the trampoline, the tag-team moves and the clever heel behaviour a lot when it's gone though.

One of my favourite things the Freebirds did later on was Michael PS Hayes would get hit or bettered in some wrestling contest and then crawl/stumble to the corner and embrace "Gorgeous" Jimmy Garvin. The crowd would boo, Michael and Jimmy would realize how they looked and then break the embrace. I think Jimmy may have done the same move a few times too. It always made me chuckle. Anyway, my point, I wouldn't call that behaviour of a feared stable. They were a different team by that point in their history too though.

I was wrong about Akeem's tag title too.

(edited by JohnHayduke on 3.5.06 1136)

(edited by JohnHayduke on 3.5.06 1138)

(edited by JohnHayduke on 3.5.06 1139)

(edited by JohnHayduke on 3.5.06 1141)
The 5th Horseman
Kolbasz








Since: 23.10.02
From: Myrtle Beach, South Carolina

Since last post: 3005 days
Last activity: 2994 days
#54 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.04
We can agree to disagree. I think it's a bad gimmick and these guys appear to be too good to be stuck in the gimmick for too long. It just seems to be one of those bad gimmicks they will always be kidded about like Shane Douglas with the Dynamic Dudes stuff.

However, like I said, they have still been entertaining so far, and that's the most important thing right now.

I also thought Akeem and Big Bossman won the tag titles together, so I guess that proves we can both be wrong.....as if there was any doubt.
flairforthegold13
Kishke








Since: 1.5.03
From: Gainesville, FL.

Since last post: 2516 days
Last activity: 2503 days
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#55 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.31
I like to think of gimmicks like the spirit squad this way: these are a bunch of young, dumb a-holes who got their break to go to the wwe and decided to become male cheerleaders simply to annoy the audience. I mean, we're not supposed to believe they're really cheerleaders, ya dig. Otherwise their cheers would be better. It's not like they talk about the cheerleading awards they've won or even seem to take themselves seriously. They're doing it simply to annoy the audience.

I may be overthinking it, but with some characters you have to look beyond it and say 'here's a heel doing something really annoying (in this case, being a cheerleader) just to annoy me.

That works for me.
dMp
Banger








Since: 4.1.02
From: The Hague, Netherlands (Europe)

Since last post: 1 day
Last activity: 3 hours
#56 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.58
    Originally posted by The 5th Horseman
    We can agree to disagree. I think it's a bad gimmick and these guys appear to be too good to be stuck in the gimmick for too long. It just seems to be one of those bad gimmicks they will always be kidded about like Shane Douglas with the Dynamic Dudes stuff.


The gimmick is actually great if they decide to split them (either one of them or all) at one point.
Walk in w/o Spirit gear, say the joke is over and leave.
If played well the single guy can be an immediate star almost right away.

And who kids Douglas about the Dynamic Dudes other than smarts who like to show what htey know?
How many people refer to Austin as the Ringmaster or STunning steve?
Especially in this day and age people are prone to forget (and forgive) bad gimmicks in a few weeks/months.




*sigh* Why bother?
Mr Tuesday
Kolbasz








Since: 6.1.02
From: Chicago, IL

Since last post: 868 days
Last activity: 574 days
#57 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.71
    Originally posted by dMp
    >And who kids Douglas about the Dynamic Dudes other than smarts who like to show what htey know?

I tease him about being Dean Douglass myself.
oldschoolhero
Knackwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: nWo Country

Since last post: 1988 days
Last activity: 1922 days
#58 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.37
The Dynamic Dudes were lame because they were faces and they were called "Dudes". The Spirit Squad works because they're a very similar gimmick but played as heels. They're playing on the goofiness and stupidity of a squad of male cheerleaders and using it to get heat. And the five guys are filling the roles perfectly.



To those who say people wouldn't look; they wouldn't be interested; they're too complacent, indifferent and insulated, I can only reply: There is, in one reporter's opinion, considerable evidence against that contention. But even if they are right, what have they got to lose? Because if they are right, and this instrument is good for nothing but to entertain, amuse and insulate, then the tube is flickering now and we will soon see that the whole struggle is lost. This instrument can teach, it can illuminate; yes, and it can even inspire. But it can do so only to the extent that humans are determined to use it to those ends. Otherwise it is merely wires, and lights, in a box.-Edward R. Murrow
The 5th Horseman
Kolbasz








Since: 23.10.02
From: Myrtle Beach, South Carolina

Since last post: 3005 days
Last activity: 2994 days
#59 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.04
    Originally posted by dMp
    And who kids Douglas about the Dynamic Dudes other than smarts who like to show what htey know?
    How many people refer to Austin as the Ringmaster or STunning steve?
    Especially in this day and age people are prone to forget (and forgive) bad gimmicks in a few weeks/months.

First, there is nothing embarrassing about "Stunning" Steve or the Ringmaster gimmicks, IMO. The Ringmaster was just not right for Austin because it suppressed his charisma while he was acting like a robotic wrestling machine and had a manager doing his talking when he never needed a manager to talk for him. However, that did transition to his "Stone Cold" character rather smoothly. He cut his hair very short for the Ringmaster gimmick, which led to the completely shaved head for Stone Cold. Also, he continued using that uncaring and methodic approach while wrestling as Stone Cold, which was his way to show how little he cared about the pain of his opponents while the announcers put over his "Stone Cold" heart.

As for Douglas, a few years ago he did an interview in which he said he regretted being part of the Dynamic Dudes gimmick because it took him a while to escape it and make a name for himself. Kind of like an actor being type cast in one role and can't be accepted as anything else. He felt like that gimmick held him back for a few years after he stopped using it.

You can make fun of wrestling fans by calling them smarks, smarts, marks, or whatever else you chose, but that is the crowd that the wrestlers are playing to and it is more difficult to get the crowd to see you as a bad ass and/or a serious threat when they remember you wearing pink shorts and skating on a skateboard or jumping around in cheerleader outfits doing corny cheers. Not impossible, but more difficult.

Once again, I said I didn't like the male cheerleaders gimmick at first, however these guys have made it entertaining. I don't see the big issue with that statement. I still don't think it's a good gimmick, but they have made it work. They will have to escape that gimmick if they ever move up to be taken seriously, IMHO.

(edited by The 5th Horseman on 4.5.06 1338)

(edited by The 5th Horseman on 4.5.06 1340)
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