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29.11.14 0357
The W - Current Events & Politics - 6 people arrested at a town hall meeting in St Louis (Page 2)
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StaggerLee
Scrapple








Since: 3.10.02
From: Right side of the tracks

Since last post: 1 day
Last activity: 1 day
#21 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.01
    Originally posted by Leroy

      Originally posted by AWArulz
      Look, my main thing is, I can't name even one government program that I can think of that works worth a crap.


    Do/did your kids go to private school? Do you drive on private roads? You were a cop - was your department all screwed up? How about your local fire department? My local DMV, while not exactly a providing a pleasant experience, tends to do a pretty decent job.

    Government run programs start to suck when the expectation is that they should function like private corporations. Insurance companies profit by not paying out - and, when it comes to people's health, I don't want profit to determine the type of care people receive. I don't think it is morally right, and I don't believe it leads to proper care.

    As Zeruel's experience so unfortunately illustrates, the people who don't have health insurance and yet need medical attention are the one's who pay the highest price. The reality is that his condition, under proper care, is probably manageable. But he won't make the insurance companies money, so it's not in their "interests" to make sure he gets that care.


And THATS the difference. DMVs Fire Departments, Police, roads, etc are paid for by the state. NOT the federal government.

I am sorry for your friend dying.
If she had surgery for her shoulder and was on corticosteroids, her physician should have monitored her for it.
People called 911 when she passed out and you think that's to blame for her not being able to be diagnosed? It would take one or two visits to any clinic and the diagnosis could/should have been made. A quick google of Santa Barbara free clinic led me to this:
http://www.sbclinics.com/

So, free help or at least affordable help WAS available. If she didn't know where to look, that is indeed unfortunate.

I don't think it's 85% of the Tax Paying American's responsibility to ensure that 15% of the people have health insurance.

I don't feel MY benefits should be taxed because somebody else either cannot afford it, or chooses NOT to get it.

I don't think my nation should be spending at least a trillion dollars in the next decade to do something that they could legislate fixes for.

I don't feel that the Government should operate a health care program. I don't think the government should be approving or disapproving how health care is administered. I don't believe that if I change my job, I cannot get new insurance unless it is through the government or approved by the government.

Medicare is a mess. The VA Medical System is a mess. But you want to put your faith in the government to help run everything else properly?



Zeruel
Thirty Millionth Hit
Moderator








Since: 2.1.02
From: The Silver Spring in the Land of Mary.

Since last post: 9 days
Last activity: 3 days
#22 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.05
    Originally posted by StaggerLee


    And THATS the difference. DMVs Fire Departments, Police, roads, etc are paid for by the state. NOT the federal government.





I'm not going to respond to the rest of your post because I know I will be banned for what I want to say, but I will say this: I guess they don't have Interstate Highways in your backwaters part of Missouri, but the Interstate Highway System is partly paid by the Federal Government.


From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_Highway_System#Financing


    While the name implies that Interstate Highways cross state lines, many do not (for details, see List of intrastate Interstate Highways). Rather, they are funded federally with money shared among the states. The H-x Interstates in Hawaii and the paper interstates in Alaska and Puerto Rico are funded in the same way as in the other states.

    About 70% of the construction and maintenance costs of highways in the U.S. are covered through user fees (net of collection costs), primarily gasoline taxes collected by the federal government and state and local governments, and to a much lesser extent tolls collected on toll roads and bridges. The rest of the costs are borne by general fund receipts, bond issues, and designated property and other taxes. The federal contribution is overwhelmingly from motor vehicle and fuel taxes (93.5% in 2007), as is about 60% of the state contribution. However, local contributions are overwhelmingly from sources other than user fees.[32] The portion of the user fees spent on highways themselves covers about 57% of costs, as approximately one-sixth of the user fees are diverted to other programs, prominently including mass transit. In the eastern United States, large sections of some Interstate Highways planned or built prior to 1956 are operated as toll roads.

    As American suburbs have expanded, the costs incurred in maintaining freeway infrastructure have also grown, leaving little in the way of funds for new Interstate construction.[33] This has led to the proliferation of toll roads (turnpikes) as the new method of building limited-access highways in suburban areas. Some Interstates are privately maintained (e.g., VMS maintains I-35 in Texas)[34] to meet rising costs of maintenance and allow state departments of transportation to focus on serving the fastest growing regions in their respective states.

    Parts of the system may have to be tolled in the future to meet maintenance and expansion demands, as has been done with adding toll HOV/HOT lanes in cities such as San Diego, Salt Lake City, Minneapolis, Houston, Denver, Dallas, Atlanta,[35][36] and Washington, D.C. At present, federal law does not allow for a state to change a freeway section to a tolled section for all traffic.[citation needed]




-- 2006 Time magazine Person of the Year --

-- July 2009 Ordained Reverend --
StaggerLee
Scrapple








Since: 3.10.02
From: Right side of the tracks

Since last post: 1 day
Last activity: 1 day
#23 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.01
    Originally posted by Zeruel
      Originally posted by StaggerLee


      And THATS the difference. DMVs Fire Departments, Police, roads, etc are paid for by the state. NOT the federal government.





    I'm not going to respond to the rest of your post because I know I will be banned for what I want to say, but I will say this: I guess they don't have Interstate Highways in your backwaters part of Missouri, but the Interstate Highway System is partly paid by the Federal Government.





Yes, interstates are paid for through the federal government. And, where I live here in "backwater Missouri" I can get to my job, my school, the store, and even to my doctors office and NOT have to take an interstate highway to do it. MOST of the nation doesn't rely on interstate highways for their daily commutes.

And, feel free to PM me if you really think you need to address something I've said.
Leroy
Boudin blanc








Since: 7.2.02

Since last post: 12 hours
Last activity: 4 hours
#24 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.24
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    People called 911 when she passed out and you think that's to blame for her not being able to be diagnosed?


Yes, I do. It's what prevented her from being seen by the major clinic in town. She owed them too much money. In fact, when she finally got insurance and was diagnosed, she was in Los Angeles. The Samsung still wouldn't see her until she paid the several thousand dollars she owed them. This is a fairly small town (relatively speaking), and there are few options outside of Samsung.

I should also mention that - much like Zeruel - her condition made it very difficult for her to find a job, much less one with adequate benefits.



She went there. They told her that she was depressed and that she needed to eat more. They don't have the resources to deal with patients with a rare but treatable disease like Cushing's.

Incidentally, 26.6% of Santa Barbara County residents are without health insurance - the fourth largest percentage of uninsured in the state of California. Those free clinics are heavily impacted.

    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    Medicare is a mess. The VA Medical System is a mess. But you want to put your faith in the government to help run everything else properly?


I want those programs fixed. We need people in government who actually believe in a functional government - not politicians who feel that their job is to keep the government dysfunctional as means to continually justify keeping it "out of the way".



Who likes the little little duckies in the pond? I do, I do, I do, a chicka-quack quack.
Peter The Hegemon
Lap cheong








Since: 11.2.03
From: Hackettstown, NJ

Since last post: 13 days
Last activity: 4 hours
#25 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.03


Huh? That makes no sense to me. It makes it a lousy predictor of what will happen in an election, but since they weren't asking about elections, I don't see the relevance.

    Originally posted by Grimis

      Originally posted by Peter The Hegemon
      Now many of the people who were aghast that they could say something so unpatriotic are calling the current President a Nazi, a racist, and a fraud.

    And all of those things being said about Obama aren't half as bad as the things that were said about Bush.


No, they're ten times worse. I mean, you can find some random person who says horrible things about ANY politician, but in terms of the people who actually get talked about, what they're saying about Obama is much worse. Again, the Dixie Chicks became a huge story for saying they were ashamed of the President. Now Glenn Beck--who, unlike the Dixie Chicks, is a professional news commentator--calls the President a racist. How is that "not half as bad?" It's worse. Obama's being called a Nazi with alarming frequency, he's accused of supporting terrorists, Palin claims he wants to have "death panels", and that's saying nothing of the birthers. (Again, you could compare the birthers to the nuts who claimed Bush was complicit in 9/11. But there are members of Congress voicing support for the birthers--that didn't happen to Bush.)

    Originally posted by Grimis

    My point here is that you can't have your cake and eat it too. If people were insanely disrespectful to Bush, the same people cannot complaining about people being insanely disrespectful to Obama.


And MY point is that people were NOT insanely disrespectful to Bush. Not people of importance, anyway. And, besides that, the real complaint isn't that people are being disrespectful--it's that when they show up to these meetings, they aren't *letting the other side speak*. And that certainly didn't happen to Republicans under Bush.

    Originally posted by Grimis

    And frankly, those who are complaining about the "mistreatment" of the President are frankly just trying to distract the public away from what Obamacare will actually do to America's health care system.


Then why is it that it's conservatives trying to prevent Democrats from being heard, and not the other way around? You couldn't be more wrong. The more people actually understand about this, the more they support what the President is proposing. (Remember the guy at the town hall meeting screaming about keeping the government's hands off his Medicare.)

    Originally posted by Grimis

      Originally posted by Leroy
      Anytime anyone tells me it's "too fucking expensive" or "it's not the government's place", I think about Melissa and wonder when these people will get their fucking priorities straight.

    I think that it's a terrible story. But government run care or single-payer coverage as Obamacare would provide us would not solve this problem one bit. In fact, the problem will be exacerbated by senseless rules and needless bureaucracy. It may have take twice as long for her disease to be diagnosed due to the rationing of care.

    Like I said, it's a horrible story and I am sorry that you lost your friend so young; I have lost many a friend and a family members to diseases like this. But all the government care in the world would not have stopped this. And at the end of the day, it's still too expensive and still not the government's place.



Of course government care would have stopped it. People in countries with government-supported health care--Britain or Sweden or Singapore--don't have that happen to them. That's why the US ranks last among leading industrialized nations in preventing preventable deaths (Source: http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSN07651650) and why we rank behind many countries in just about every measure of health-care outcomes despite spending the most money per capita. The senseless rules and needless bureaucracy don't come from governments; they come from *insurance companies*, whose goal is to not to have to spend money.

And you think we liberals don't want to talk about this?
TheBucsFan
TheChiefsFan








Since: 2.1.02

Since last post: 109 days
Last activity: 109 days
#26 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.17
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    I am sorry for your friend dying.
    If she had surgery for her shoulder and was on corticosteroids, her physician should have monitored her for it.
    People called 911 when she passed out and you think that's to blame for her not being able to be diagnosed? It would take one or two visits to any clinic and the diagnosis could/should have been made. A quick google of Santa Barbara free clinic led me to this:
    http://www.sbclinics.com/

    So, free help or at least affordable help WAS available. If she didn't know where to look, that is indeed unfortunate.


I didn't respond to this at first because I was so infuriated by this bit and needed to calm down a bit. Suffice it to say, it's clear you've never had to rely on a free clinic like this for any kind of care, otherwise you would know how asinine your suggestion here is.

All I read, when I see this post, is, "*I* don't have diabetes and/or Cushing's, so *I* don't have to worry about it, but those that do should be happy with this shoddy, limited free clinic I found a link to via Google." It's arrogance, selfishness and ignorance to an absolutely astonishing degree, and you should be ashamed of the attitude you've displayed here.

But I know you're not and probably never will be. That's the problem, and it's why there's no adequate health care for millions upon millions of Americans.

EDIT: I should not use the word "shoddy" really. I don't know anything about the clinic in question, and there are certainly free clinics that are nicer than others. The point is, if these clinics were sufficient to treat major ailments, we wouldn't be having a massive discussion about how to solve America's health care woes right now. So for you to just casually dismiss the fact that people are dying needlessly the way you did because, hey, there was a free clinic RIGHT THERE, is ridiculous. There are so many adjectives I could use to end that sentence.

(edited by TheBucsFan on 10.8.09 1859)
StaggerLee
Scrapple








Since: 3.10.02
From: Right side of the tracks

Since last post: 1 day
Last activity: 1 day
#27 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.01
Leroy, if she's been to both places and neither did anything, its negligence. I truly do feel bad for the entire situation.

Bucsfan: To assume I've never relied on a free clinic, or a government run healthcare system is completely wrong.
I have no insurance where I work. I could either purchase it on my own, or take advantage of the VA healthcare that I am eligible for. So, I use that option.
Every single aspect of government run or supervised healthcare in this country has been a failure, pure and simple. Demonize me for thinking I shouldn't be responsible for footing the bill for somebody elses heathcare all you want, but the truth of the matter is, in the last census nearly half the people who are living without health insurance CHOOSE to. Either from being young and healthy, or from investing in HSA through their employer, and paying cash for services they need.

Fix the system. Make insurance companies accept all patients regardless of previously existing conditions. Make all insurance available on an as needed basis, where if you don't NEED it, you don't have to purchase it. So, if you go four or five years with no health problems, then get, say appendicitis, You can purchase health insurance to cover the costs of the hospitalization, and medication, without having to continuously pay into a system that does nothing for the purchaser.
Force insurance companies to provide health insurance to people under the poverty level, or whatever monetary level you want, and give them tax credits for every person they insure that they don't get paid for.

There are a TON of ways to FIX the health insurance issue, and most of them can do it WITHOUT taxing a single American, cutting costs to Medicare/Medicaid (which this bill includes doing) or without making the government the company in charge of my personal healthcare choices.




(edited by StaggerLee on 10.8.09 0714)

(edited by StaggerLee on 10.8.09 0714)
lotjx
Scrapple








Since: 5.9.08

Since last post: 14 hours
Last activity: 1 hour
#28 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.39

Fix the system. Make insurance companies accept all patients regardless of previously existing conditions. Make all insurance available on an as needed basis, where if you don't NEED it, you don't have to purchase it. So, if you go four or five years with no health problems, then get, say appendicitis, You can purchase health insurance to cover the costs of the hospitalization, and medication, without having to continuously pay into a system that does nothing for the purchaser.
Force insurance companies to provide health insurance to people under the poverty level, or whatever monetary level you want, and give them tax credits for every person they insure that they don't get paid for.



Won't happen. They will over price it worse then it is now to reach only the middle and upper class even with tax credits which are worthless anyway. Then they will scream bloody murder it costs too much to provide for the poor. Even with regulation, they will find loopholes or put loopholes in to prevent it. Insurances companies do compete to get customers, but once they have the customer, will still screw over the customer. Its like auto insurance, why the hell should my rates go up if I get into an accident, isn't that why I pay for insurance, so when accident happens, I am covered? Plus, why do I have to pay a deductible when I already paid for the month or months to cover me? Insurance companies have been able to railroad crap through states and the Feds for years when its all a giant scam.

The real issue, is that people care more about their money then they do about another person's life. Everything else is just window dressing.
El Nastio
Andouille








Since: 14.1.02
From: Ottawa Ontario, by way of Walkerton

Since last post: 19 hours
Last activity: 2 hours
ICQ:  
#29 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.06
A couple of years ago I was assaulted at a bus stop at about 11pm. I took the city run buses to the place I was living. After a couple of hours, I noticed that my face didn't feel as it should, and it looked as if when I opened my mount a piece of my jaw seemed loose. I couldn’t open my mouth all the way either. So I took the bus and got to the ER at around 3am or so. I waited in the ER for two or three hours, in an ER with four other people, until a doctor saw me. After another couple of hours, I then went and had X-Rays done. After this another couple of hours passed. Meanwhile, at some point I started having nose bleeds whenever I lied down, which is promptly dismissed as not meaning anything. So after some more time passed they get to me and say I have a broken orbital bone, and plastic surgery will be needed to place metal in my face. After a few more hours, I was finally gone from the ER, still walking around with a broken orbital bone. All told, 3am I arrived and I left at 4pm the following day, so a total of 13 hours. The next stage was waiting for the surgery. The surgeon said that permanent damage would happen in a week; however the surgery could wait a few days. They did mention that if no one came in with severe emergency trauma, they could fit me in earlier. Two days later with not being able to eat solids they called me in. That evening I went under the knife and my face was fixed. I then went to the pharmacy and paid for my drugs in full, as I had no drug plan at the time. To my American friends here, how long would this have taken if I had private insurance in the States?


Another one. I injured my back a few years ago. After waiting several hours, a Doctor said it was a pinched nerve, it would get better. A few years passed, it has progressively gotten worse. Went again, received an X-Ray request, wait a few days and then go back to see what's wrong. After that if that is inconclusive I need to wait two or three months for an MRI.

Another one. I’m having huge issues with focus and concentration. What for some is five minutes, for me feels like hours. Have been this way my whole life. Went to the doctor, my wife said I should. Waited a few hours, for him to prescribe some meds and put me on the wait list for see a psychiatrist. The wait list? Months long, unless I pay out of pocket. Which due to being a student and having an unemployed wife, is not an option.

Another one. My wife has depression. She tried to kill herself a couple of years ago. She went to a mental health facility for a bit for monitoring, which was free. But the wait list for her to be treated (for free) was…..months. This after she tried to kill herself. A family member knew someone who pulled some strings….and praise God we got her seeing someone. Of course, the meds cost money. Between hers and mine is 300 bucks a month, because we have no coverage.

Why am I posting these things? Because everything outside of the drugs were free, paid for by the federal government of Canada. But you may have noticed, a lot of waiting. Too much waiting in some cases. That’s our issue in Canada, the wait times are terrible. If you have something deemed “non-threatening” or “annoying”, you have to wait. We have a fierce shortage of family doctors as well. The quality of work the doctors do can be very poor, as they are over worked and in some cases under qualified.

I love healthcare, I really do. I’ve never had lots of money, and with mine and my wife’s health issues there is ZERO chance of a private carrier accepting us (we tried for the drug coverage). Free healthcare has saved my life and many others. But our system needs work as well. 13 hours to be told I need to wait another couple of days to have my face fixed is unacceptable. 3 hours to be given a Ritalin prescription and wait a few months for a shrink is not acceptable. My wife’s story is a mix….the system failed us at first, but now it is saving us because we do not need to pay to see the doctor. And ongoing treatments of our conditions cost us 300 bucks a month because they are not covered by healthcare. Our system is by no means perfect, and needs improvement in a terribad way.

But it’s free. Thank God it’s free. If it wasn’t for medicare I’d be screwed, along with others. But they sure make you wait for it.

I hope you Americans make a system that works for everyone. A system that doesn’t tax you anymore than you need. A system that treat everyone equal. A system that doesn’t have you wait months to get tests and treatments. Maybe a combo Public/Private system could work, who knows?

Either way, I hope you guys get this right. And the cries to "fix the system" extend to us Canadians too.

(edited by El Nastio on 10.8.09 0920)


You know, I really don't know what to put here. Close your eyes and thank of something funny!
Reverend J Shaft
Liverwurst








Since: 25.6.03
From: Home of The Big House

Since last post: 50 days
Last activity: 23 hours
#30 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.40
    Originally posted by Peter The Hegemon
    And MY point is that people were NOT insanely disrespectful to Bush. Not people of importance, anyway. And, besides that, the real complaint isn't that people are being disrespectful--it's that when they show up to these meetings, they aren't *letting the other side speak*. And that certainly didn't happen to Republicans under Bush.


That's probably the most insanely hypocritical thing I've read here in some time. People were ridiculously disrespectful to Bush, too. People were showing up to anti-war rallies with posters of Bush depicted as Hitler - sound familiar? Hell, there were books published detailing the fictionalized ASSASSINATION of him. TV shows making fun of him, films making fun of him - hell Will Farrell toured the country staging an hour-long mockery of him.

The same nutbags saying those things about Obama are disrespectful as well. Ripping policy is one thing - ripping the person who's proposing the policy with slurs is another. But don't cheapen your point by making hypocritical statements like that.

And saying that the people who made those slurs against Bush are "not people of importance" is insulting as well. I think every person's opinion is "of importance" whether it comes from Joe Schmoe, a member of Congress or a TV nutbag on the far left or right. They all pay taxes, too.

(edited by Reverend J Shaft on 10.8.09 1156)
Captaincuba
Italian








Since: 25.10.05

Since last post: 269 days
Last activity: 144 days
#31 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.88
I'll offer this insight. My father passed away on June 22, 2009. He suffered from Stage 4 Recurrent Melanoma after being in remission for 4 1/2 years.

Perhaps it was my father's demeanor, his general likability, or his his innate charm and innocence that allowed him to be treated by some of the best doctors in the world in the Melanoma field.

My father never made more than 36k a year for his lifetime, my mom was a homemaker. Had it not been for his Medicare the MILLIONS of dollars spent on surgury, treatment, and meds would have obviously crushed him financially.

He never had to wait, never had to struggle, and never had to fight with either Medicare or his supplemental insurance company (which was mostly what covered the at home care, and he paid 225 a month for).

I am the executor to his estate, and have found nothing to lead me to believe that Medicare didn't work exactly as it should have.

Maybe he was the exception, but I appreciate what Medicare did for him these last 20 months. He got to meet my newborn son and died peacefully, painlessly, and with dignity at a hospice.

CC
tricia
Bauerwurst








Since: 5.11.05

Since last post: 206 days
Last activity: 6 days
#32 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.00

This is my silly, naive, and potentially embarrassing opinions, but here goes….

One of the things that I always notice when I take a look at national healthcare (or nationalized “anything/service/industry”) is that the countries where this works and works like its supposed to are countries where the population is generally uniform. That is, populations where the vast, vast majority of people are all from the same racial/ethnic group. People are generally less opposed to paying for services/stuff for other people if the other people are generally just like them.

To me the elephant in the room is that this is partially a ethic/race/class warfare issue and that there will always be people who will violently oppose nationalized health care because they don’t want to pay for anything that goes to “brown people”. (Again, I am a Korean-American adoptee.) I have always doubted that this country will ever have nationalized health care for that very reason. I also realize that this probably doesn’t explain why Canada is so, um, “blessed” with national healthcare, and maybe El Nastio and other Canadians would like to tell us all why.

I personally don’t want nationalized health care either; I think that the quality of care will drop if the government gets over involved with it too. Other posters have written out better more eloquent reasons already. But I also will never, ever be a Republican either; these past four years their public image leaves a very bad taste in my mouth.




tricia @@@:)
StaggerLee
Scrapple








Since: 3.10.02
From: Right side of the tracks

Since last post: 1 day
Last activity: 1 day
#33 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.01
So, everybody who's against running up huge deficits, no matter what the reason, are automatically racist?
Mr. Boffo
Scrapple








Since: 24.3.02
From: Oshkosh, WI

Since last post: 488 days
Last activity: 449 days
#34 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.17
How can we keep going with our current system, where we pay the most of any major country (15% of GDP goes to health care), and the result is the 37th best health care in the nation (as of 2000)?

I don't know the specifics of where we are wasting money, but that's what needs to change. I get the feeling that health insurance is not the root cause of that, but maybe I'm wrong.
tricia
Bauerwurst








Since: 5.11.05

Since last post: 206 days
Last activity: 6 days
#35 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.00
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    So, everybody who's against running up huge deficits, no matter what the reason, are automatically racist?




Well sorry for the misunderstanding, but I admit that I should have been clearer. I don’t think that this is the only issue involved in health care, but I brought it up because I think that it is an issue that a lot of people are willfully avoiding. So I chose to bring it up myself. I am not accusing you or anybody else who posted of anything.

Also again, I am not a fan of running up huge deficits or nationalized health care either. (My pathologist husband is currently wringing his hands over this issue. His coworkers verbal opinions could peel the paint off of the hospital walls.) But I’m not a fan of the Republican party either right now. I have nothing personal against the individual conservative minded posters on this board either. But this is something I have always noticed and like to point out to people when they talk about other countries health care systems. When you compare our multi-ethnic population to European populations, sometimes it is like comparing apples to oranges; we each have a different set of issues to deal with and not all solutions are equal to all problems



tricia @@@:)
Alex
Bratwurst








Since: 24.2.02

Since last post: 1 day
Last activity: 3 hours
#36 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.21
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    So, everybody who's against running up huge deficits, no matter what the reason, are automatically racist?


Nobody is making that claim in this thread. I'm not sure where you think you heard it, really.

Oh, wait, from Tricia's post? I think you're leaping to a bad conclusion there. I do think that the issue is inextricable from race and class. There's a prevailing attitude among some people that basically boils down to "FUCK YOU, GOT MINE" who will oppose anybody daring to ask them to help out poor people or minorities, etc.

So no, not everyone opposed to increasing the deficit is racist. Or classist. Or greedy. It's this sort of demonizing attitude that leads to the ugliness we've seen, and have yet to see on display.

In additional hilarity, the guy who got injured protesting health care reform is now soliciting donations to pay for his medical bills because he doesn't have insurance.
DrDirt
Banger








Since: 8.10.03
From: flyover country

Since last post: 2 days
Last activity: 15 hours
#37 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.35
    Originally posted by Alex
      Originally posted by StaggerLee
      So, everybody who's against running up huge deficits, no matter what the reason, are automatically racist?


    Nobody is making that claim in this thread. I'm not sure where you think you heard it, really.

    Oh, wait, from Tricia's post? I think you're leaping to a bad conclusion there. I do think that the issue is inextricable from race and class. There's a prevailing attitude among some people that basically boils down to "FUCK YOU, GOT MINE" who will oppose anybody daring to ask them to help out poor people or minorities, etc.

    So no, not everyone opposed to increasing the deficit is racist. Or classist. Or greedy. It's this sort of demonizing attitude that leads to the ugliness we've seen, and have yet to see on display.

    In additional hilarity, the guy who got injured protesting health care reform is now soliciting donations to pay for his medical bills because he doesn't have insurance.


It would be naive to think that race at a conscious or subconscious level plays no factor but that isn't the real issue.

We are a country founded and forged into what we are unlike almost any other and it colors our views of what government should be and how the "underclass" and those struggling should or should not be taken care of should take care of themselves.

The truth is in the middle on this issue and all the screaming and yelling does is keep it polarized so nothing can be accomplished. Maybe that's all certain elements want.



Perception is reality
StaggerLee
Scrapple








Since: 3.10.02
From: Right side of the tracks

Since last post: 1 day
Last activity: 1 day
#38 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.01
    Originally posted by Alex
      Originally posted by StaggerLee
      So, everybody who's against running up huge deficits, no matter what the reason, are automatically racist?


    Nobody is making that claim in this thread. I'm not sure where you think you heard it, really.

    Oh, wait, from Tricia's post? I think you're leaping to a bad conclusion there. I do think that the issue is inextricable from race and class. There's a prevailing attitude among some people that basically boils down to "FUCK YOU, GOT MINE" who will oppose anybody daring to ask them to help out poor people or minorities, etc.

    So no, not everyone opposed to increasing the deficit is racist. Or classist. Or greedy. It's this sort of demonizing attitude that leads to the ugliness we've seen, and have yet to see on display.

    In additional hilarity, the guy who got injured protesting health care reform is now soliciting donations to pay for his medical bills because he doesn't have insurance.

She cleared that up and I understand that she was saying.

AND are you talking about the man who was beaten by the union thugs? Even if he was soliciting for help with his bills, but he STILL thinks the government taking over should mean something. He'd rather be in debt than have the entire nation be in debt so that he wouldn't have to pay his bill.
Alex
Bratwurst








Since: 24.2.02

Since last post: 1 day
Last activity: 3 hours
#39 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.21
Tricia posted her reply a few seconds before I finished mine. It's all good.

Leaving Kenneth Gladney alone for a moment, I appreciate that at least you're offering some alternative solutions instead of just raging against "Obama's ACORN death squads" or whatever the vocal minority who are ruining the Republican party are crazing about these days.
Hogan's My Dad
Andouille








Since: 8.6.02
From: Canada

Since last post: 1 day
Last activity: 1 day
#40 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.81


I think it's fair to say that part of the debate is getting lost in accusation. No one is really proposing the "single-payer option" for everyone and I hear a lot of the lunatics ranting on about this. The system in Canada needs a lot of work, but that could never be transferred to the States, and Obama has said as much himself.

Practically speaking, there are just so many more Americans than Canadians that it would be cost prohibitive to say the very, very least.

What I don't understand is why so vehement an opposition on, seemingly, the right, to a hybrid system that works so well in places that outstrip both the U.S. and places with a single-payer governement option, like Canada and England, for example. France has it, Malta has it, Singapore has it, Japan has it. I think Andorra has it, but I'm not entirely convinced that's actually a place. They might be imperfect variations on it, but it seems to work in these places.

The obsession with taxes in American consciousness is really hilarious to most other nationalities, and this is to Alex's "fuck you, got mine" point, because the fact is your taxes are, comparatively speaking, very low. Well, income taxes, I mean, not corporate. And that in virtually every place in the world with higher taxes, there is less death from preventable disease. Nothing's wrong with profit, but everyone and everything doesn't have to be for sale, does it?





Quiet, Or Papa Spank!
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Beleive it or not, this was the lead story on the news yesterday. (Again, showing what a dopey place Hampton roads is.)
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