I don't know...best RAW? Maybe in comparison to what we've been getting.
What the hell did Tommy Dreamer do? First he's fed a crap angle, then he gets fed to the Undertaker? And humiliated to boot. They need to actually let the man wrestle!
As for Undertaker...I know CRZ likes him...someone has to..but the whole Red Devil/Big Evil thing? Bleh!
Finally...Benoit is one of my fave's, but I think going heel is the better direction for him. He's not the most, um..., eloquent(?) speaker in the world. He can get away with less talking as a heel, if they push him as a monster heel.
So...best Raw? I don't know..but it's a step in the right direction.
--It looks like they are going to knock X-Pac out on his butt and drum him out of nWo, as I hoped (stoolie). Booker T actually was down with Golddust being a new member, in his own inimitable way. But Why did the announcers insist on saying that Golddust is not a member of nWo when Nash did absolutely nothing about the facepaint?
--"No one gets as high as RVD"--ha ha. I am very anti-drug, but I don't condemn the users, especially when they make others want to toke what he's toking. Note that they immediately cut to a commercial after that quote.
--Benoit as monster heel!! Whoo hoo! Now The Rock will have to stay on the interview/promotion circuit.
"A quality ladder match between RVD and Guerrero, combined with Benoit returning to his heel ways and (for better or worse) hintings at the return of the Four Horsemen...and it will probably score lousy ratings.
Because WWE spent ten minutes leading into RAW Zone getting Dreamer to drink Undertaker's chaw juice."
Okay. This whole show built to the main event of Eddy/RVD. Hype, backstage segments, interviews, even the opening segment gave Eddy and RVD some rub. Undertaker and Dreamer had ten minutes in the middle of the show with little to no build. If this show scores lousy ratings, I don't think much of the blame can be placed on Dreamer/Taker.
I thought RAW was good. I don't see the Four Horsemen returning. I don't even want to see it. I want to see new stuff. Austin and RVD vs. Eddy and Benoit will be just fine with me without another old angle to back it up.
RIP The Rock's Show. April 29, 1999-April 4, 2002.
1. That asshole fan totally took the crowd out of the match. I hope he's nursing a mashed face right about now.
2. Lawler. Lose him. NOW. Him screaming out LATINO HEEEEEEEEEEET at every opportunity made me want to strangle him. He almost, almost makes me wish Eddie wasn't on my screen.
Eddie's awesomeness makes up for Lawler awfulness though. Barely.
I kept expecting Benoit, Eddie, Flair and Arn to stand in the middle of the ring flashing the four fingers. If they somehow had Jericho come out and join them in the beat down, THEN flash the four fingers, I would have completely lost it. Best mark out moment ever right there.
"Go for the eyes, Boo! GO FOR THE EYES! RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!" - Minsc, Baldur's Gate.
This Raw had some real amazing highs and some really bad lows. There was very little "umm that's alright" stuff. I thought JR and Lawler were really ON tonight. Especially Ross he had some amazing lines
-opening segment - First off Benoit OLP music kicks ass... I admit I marked out, great to see the fans go nuts... As his interview style, he'll never be Austin, Jericho or Angle, even though he has improved a lot since WCW, I would have loved for him to go to some public speaking classes for a year and come back with a major improvment.
-Trish/Spike v. Molly/Regal - very cute backstage talk between Molly/Regal, that is where that partnership is at it's best... Funny that the girls had most of the control in the match, and it worked again. one of the "good things" of the show AGAIN... I love seeing Trish & Molly give them a storyline build and they could do a great PPV 8 minutes match I'm sure... J.R GREAT LINE after showed regal going into his tights "Oh Regal goes into his tights to get the knucks of course Molly wouldnt' go there"
-X-Pac/Booker v. Hardyz - It's offical I like pac more then Matt Hardys, because tonight after Matt took off his shirt, X-pac sold it like he was legit scared of Matts "impressive build"...Lawler Great line "Does Jeff live in a paint can?"
-Taker/Dreamer segment - I don't get it, Tommy's fine, and I liked the beginning him eating food from the floor. Then the Taker came out and it lost me... The WORLD CHAMP is getting in Tommy's face. And how did the WWE think we'd care enough about a character like Dreamer right now... HOgan on both shows is so much more fun then Taker (imo)
-Lesner v. Bubba - A real great match, way over my expectations. Some nice impact. The fans were into it, even during the bearhugs/restspots the fans were clapping and supporting Bubba. Even though I guessed Brock will win there was some real fun close finishes... Heyman without a hat looks like a scary troll.
-Big show v. Bradshaw - 2 minutes, seemed longer in a bad way. Nothing interesting at all in this match.
-Goldust v. Crash - Goldust is an interesting character and this match lasted 1 minute literally. Nash just annoys me, when he waddles down the ring like he's the shit.
-RVD v. Eddie - awesome awesome awesome. Loved this match so much. More then 20 minutes of greatness... I truly think when someone is standing on a ladder near the ropes, the ref should hold the bottom of the ladder to keep it steady, I know that was done during the first HBK/Razor match.
-Aftermath - I kinda saw the heel turn but wouldn't put money on it so I wasnt' totally certain for the heel turn. I also liked the little personality Benoit showed when Eddie went for the frogsplash Benoit kind of singaled it with a double index pointing pose.
-other stuff - Richards gushing over Jazz, was kinda cute. I like Trish or Molly getting a cheap HC win don't like Terri getting it, I guess she goes with Godfather Ho as the bad female HC champs... nWo backstage is okay better then nWo inring. I liked Booker doing the nWo porn music and Nash saying "okay we'll do a remix if you win". Also interesting Book sticking up for Dust... Heyman's really creepy backstage him asking someone if they are working out and they answered and he had this face like he could care less, Heymans really good...Lawler getting the 2 girls from Tough Enough named mixed up, LOL, classic, He probabley has no idea who the were... One little thing, Lilian looked extra pretty tonight, just felt like adding that
-sign of the night : during bigshow v. bradshaw "zzzz" -Quote of the night : JR commenting on Regal giving the knucks to Molly "Regal went into his own tights to get the knucks of course Molly wouldn't do that"
I don't get it, everyone loves rats, but they don't want to drink the rats milk?
Best Raw in a long, long time. My favorite Raw since the Rock-Hogan angle (it went to hell after that, but their first confrontation was gold, IMO). Ben-WAAAHHHHH!!!! RVD-Eddy has a chance to be a MOTYC unless they pull some amazing stuff out in the next 6 months.
I dont know about the rest of yall, but that skit w/ dreamer and taker really got to me. Being a consumer of smokeless tobacco I happened to have a chaw in, when dreamer swallowed takers dip spit. Now I dont even swallow my own spit, so some kind of gag reflex kicked in and I started dry heaving. I had close my eyes on the replay. What a nasty guy that Dreamer is :p
Does anyone know when the last time a 20 minute match was aired on RAW was?
I don't think one ever has. Looking through CRZ's archives, all the matches I remeber being great and memorable clocked in at around 12-15 minutes. Smackdown had the TLC match last year, but that was about 19 minutes plus a commercial break.
* It's been far too long since the last time I got to sing along with "I AM CHRIS BENOIT AND I'M REALLY ANGRY."
* Molly gets three continuity points for remembering her summer romance. I'm waiting for someone to dig up footage of her "I have something to give YOU, too" line that made Spike drop the microphone, though.
* Molly-Regal/Trish-Spike was there. Molly's heel character has taken a serious nosedive into the land of caricature, as has her hair. Bah.
* Stevie Richards, Hardcore Icon. Leading up to where an unlikely hardcore champ will get his ass kicked by a muscular black woman repeatedly. Why does this sound familiar? (Crash starts coughing in the distance)
* This IS the nWo B-team, right?
* Booker can't go on without BASS~! Heh.
* Okay... the Dreamer segment. I found this perversely entertaining, and I'll defend myself.
No, it's not building up Dreamer as a wrestler in any measurable way, causing Innovator of Violence fans up and down the East Coast to screech uncontrollably. And, really, should it be? We KNOW that Dreamer's a bump machine, and (given the state of his back) a fragile bump machine. That's what he can do. That's what he does -- get slaughtered. He'd have fit right into the random-blunt-object-fest years of the Hardcore title, but that was a while ago, and muted compared to the level of bloodletting that got Dreamer over in the first place (do you think a cheese grater's going on Raw any time soon?)
So it didn't shock me that Tommy got nothing resembling an offensive move in, and was in yes-sir-no-sir mode throughout. Nor am I weeping over the death of Tommy's career. Tommy's career died the day that Paul Heyman closed down a fed that was sufficiently indy that a guy like Tommy Dreamer could be a main-eventer. People bitched about the Taker no-selling for the likes of HHH and Austin and the Rock -- should he be selling for a gimpy guy who was a celebrated JTTS in his GLORY years?
And I _like_ Tommy Dreamer, don't get me wrong. He's had some classic moments over the years, and he's a consummate company man, who never seemed to let his ego or seniority go to his head in ECW and would lay down for anybody. He's the kind of guy who'd allow anyone to club him over the skull with anything for the good of the organization and the storyline, and I have to appreciate that. But he's a lot closer to Arn Anderson than to even a minor-title contender in terms of in-ring capability right now.
As for the disturbo part of the angle, I don't want to know what was really in that cup. A small part of me would prefer to imagine that it was flat Coke and Big League Chew and will move on from there. The I-eat-anything gimmick is cheap theatrics and will burn itself out shortly. (Either that, or they'll put Tommy in a white diaper and repackage him as Bastion Booger 2.) But the look on the Undertaker's face as Tommy went from yuck-to-liking-it was PRICELESS and saved the segment for me.
Don't do this every week, now.
* Brock... SPOKE! HE SAID A WORD! Alert Guinness!
* Brock/Bubba: WHEN MIDCARD PUSHES COLLIDE!
This one gave me mixed emotions. On the one hand, I don't want to see the Muscle With Feet crush all opposition in thirty seconds with the same two moves. I'm not a believer in the selling == weakness equation. On the other hand, if this is a guy that they're supposedly grooming to move way up the card, should they have him being taken to the limit at this point by Bubba Ray Dudley?
* Quoth the Raven: "Nevermore." Quoth the Coachman: "What the hell?"
* The Bradshaw Singles Push has been outlined in chalk.
* "Ratty little sucka"?
* The final Physical Challenge for the Tough Enough 2 contestants will be to try and find where they're hiding the body of Nidia, the Tough Enough 1 female champion.
* Crash gets confused by Hardcore Title changes that didn't involve him and is easy pickings for Goldust.
* I'm not sure if Eddy and RVD were supposed to break Ladder #1. The action moved to the other side of the ring, and we didn't see Hebner for a fair amount of time there.
Speaking of broken ladders, I winced when I saw RVD climbing the ladder after fixing one side but not the other. No wonder he wiped out.
Eddy sez "You're a spot machine, are you? Let me take you by the hand and show you what a spotfest looks like." NICE sunset-flip powerbomb. Senton bomb had Dick Togo mumbling "Nice MOVE, ese" in Japanese somewhere across the ocean. Eddy carried this one like a pro, complete with the ladder and run-in problems. When they're giving PPV material like this away for free, they're desperate, but it's top-notch Eddy Guerrero on my TV and I get to watch and I'm thankful for it.
* I had hopes for Benoit-Angle Part 37, which obviously isn't going to happen now. So who's Benoit's logical feud on Smackdown?
"No society has managed to invest more time and energy in the perpetuation of the fiction that it is _moral, sane and wholesome_ than our current crop of _Modern Americans_." -- Frank Zappa
Originally posted by dskillzThe Four Horsemen seem to be re-born.
Pardon my bravado and partial frustration here, but suddenly it's a foregone conclusion that the Four Horsemen are confirmed as a reformed stable because ONE PERSON posted about it on a message board? Come on, people! PLEASE.
Fantasy booking is fine, but let's see how the product actually, you know, PLAYS OUT FIRST before we start jumping with joy because the Four Horsemen are back, which they're not and no one outside of a message board said they will be.
If anything, Eddy used the word "RADICALZ" a NUMBER of times in his dialogue with Benoit.
While we're at it, I'll go ahead and throw in "Mission Accomplished," "Lawn Dart," "Rey Mysterio...no, Shannon Moore...no, La Parka...no...Randy Savage as Bonesaw McGraw is leaving Hurricane notes" and this thread will be complete.
Well, you know, Nash has taken over the nWo for Flair, and Austin was set up and then taken out by a group of four gentlemen in a sinister plot engineered by the Dirtiest Player in the Game and three of those four gentlemen are former members of the group once known as the Four Horsemen and this is a thread discussing the show we watched last night, so it might come up and it's all in fun and people are a little excited so let's all just have fun and talk about the stuff that we saw last night and maybe say "Hey, I wonder if this is going in this direction, which might be good. What do you think?" If ideas like that come up, then, hey, they always do, so no need to get all bent out of shape.
So anyway. I really liked Raw last night. The Hardcore title change circus continues to be dumb, but it's short and if that's the most Bossman that we have to see, that's OK. The worst thing of the night was the Dreamer/UT segment. That was a nightmare that didn't help UT get people to hate him more and I really don't know what this can do for Dreamer. Unless Tommy eats Undertaker's title belt and then UT has to bring Dreamer back and forth between Raw and SmackDown.
It was kind of obvious that Benoit was going to turn when he showed up. It's just one of those wrestling logic things. And I don't think it's the best move - I really think having Arn oppose Flair and asking Austin to knock some sense into him, then bringing over Benoit to back Austin up (and maybe get viewers to buy Benoit as a combination of Arn and Austin) would have been better for Benoit in the long run.
But they did it, and it's done, and this could all be really good, too. It explains how Benoit can avoid being suspended, since Flair and Vince have agreed to both hate Austin, and Vince can trade Benoit over to help destroy Stone Cold. If that's the case, I guess someone has to be traded back. Bradshaw seems like a possibility (but I don't know why Vince would want him, in storyline). Booker was, by Flair's words, Vince's personal project, but they can't end his angle that way, right? We shall see.
As for Bradshaw, I've never been able to get into him as a singles wrestler, so seeing him get crushed like that was kind of interesting. Show seemed pretty motivated and was tossing him around and moving pretty good, all things considered.
I think I really like this Booker/Goldust/nWo angle a lot. It dawned on me last night, during the part with Goldust approaching X-Pac and Booker in his nWo paint, that Booker/Goldust seems to be following the path of the Rock 'n Sock Connection angle. Booker is the arrogant guy who didn't like the weirdo trying to be his friend, but with the nWo out to get Goldust, Booker is starting to become protective of him. It's a neat little parallel. And they're working on making the nWo credible with those two matches tonight. Maybe it's too late, but the nWo is just around in service now to the better Booker/Goldust angle, so that's cool.
Eddie/RVD was super-terrific. I love when they throw out those great matches on a Raw or SmackDown, like Austin's matches with Angle or Benoit, or the SmackDown TLC match. They seem to signify an attempted change in direction. This was great fun to watch, especially seeing Eddie and RVD having to improvise with two broken or damaged ladders and various other factors, including the jerk who ran in (he should have at least climbed the ladder and won the belt) and everything else. This was just great. I'd be equally happy with a match where the two guys weren't almost badly injuring themselves, but they were up for it and they pulled it off nicely. The one spot I wanted to see that they missed was RVD climbing up and stopping before grabbing the belt to do the Points To Self routine allowing Eddie to catch him, but hey, maybe next time.
So now we have, at the very least, Flair and Arn backing Benoit and Guerrero with Austin being forced, it seems, to ally with a guy he doesn't like, RVD. That puts RVD with a guy who can talk and Benoit with a bunch of guys who can talk and us with a whole boatload of guys who can put on great matches and do cool things. So, even though I think Benoit as a face would have been maybe better, maybe I'm an idiot, because this looks really good, too.
And, dare I tempt fate, if they do decide to add let's just say two more people to the Flair group to bring up their number to an arbitrary count of Four with no significance or tie-in to any old stables or anything, they have that Brock Lesnar fellow who could benefit from getting in with Flair and Arn and Eddie and Benoit, and he brings along a guy for the other side in Bubba. And then there's Regal, who has in the recent past made a superb tag partner for Eddie and would work well with Austin and can talk enough for anybody who needs help and brings a lady friend with him. So if they put those four guys together and Arn and Flair happened to back them, well, I would like that. And if they don't, well, I like with just the two guys, too. Either way, we all win.
The whole Raw felt different than the shows have felt in a while now, and good different. If they can find a direction the hardcore title, figure out what Raven's doing and maybe never show Tommy Dreamer eat anything ever again, we might really be getting somewhere. The onus is on you, SmackDown.
The problem with a four horsemen rebirth is that in the past the group has always been about backing up Flair. They were Flair's henchmen, and little else. I think it would be best for the guys we saw in the ring last night be allies, or friends if you will, but stay seperate. Benoit doesn't need to be the follower in any stable at this point, and if you make him the leader of the group instead of Flair, than it isn't really the four horsemen.
Originally posted by Dr UnlikelyWell, you know, Nash has taken over the nWo for Flair, and Austin was set up and then taken out by a group of four gentlemen in a sinister plot engineered by the Dirtiest Player in the Game and three of those four gentlemen are former members of the group once known as the Four Horsemen and this is a thread discussing the show we watched last night, so it might come up and it's all in fun and people are a little excited so let's all just have fun and talk about the stuff that we saw last night and maybe say "Hey, I wonder if this is going in this direction, which might be good. What do you think?" If ideas like that come up, then, hey, they always do, so no need to get all bent out of shape.
There's a difference between speculation and jumping to conclusions. It's one thing to say "wouldn't it be cool if..." It's another thing entirely to jump around like an ADD monkey high on crack basically screaming "THE FOUR HORSEMEN ARE BACK! CHRISBENOITBENOITBENOITBENOIT! Calloo callay!"
The latter is exactly what certain posters have done in this thread.
Let's look at the facts, though:
1.) CHRISBENOITBENOITBENOIT!!!! is on Smackdown.
2.) Arn Anderson is retired and can't really wrestle because his spine is fused. Taking one or two bumps every once in awhile is one thing. Actively wrestling (and being The Enforcer) is another.
3.) As many people have pointed out (many of the same are posters in the thread wanting the 4H to return) Flair is old and isn't really an "active" wrestler in the first place.
It seems all of this is getting by the people who consider a 4H reunion a foregone conclusion and a certainty.
For all I know, they may very well reunite the 4H. That's fine and good. But acting like you KNOW with absolute certainty it's going to happen, simply because you read it on an internet message board (even though that wasn't what was originally said -- it's like the telephone game gone horribly wrong purple monkey dishwasher) is totally insane. Just like the other examples I gave at the end of my initial post in this thread -- three things that posters here are now or were accepting as fact.
Originally posted by Parts UnknownYou're such a pisser sometimes, Papercuts. Very often you're the first guy to jump on someone's ass when they're just having fun (like in the Star Wars thread). But that's your prerogative, I guess.
1. Sign of the night: ROCK FEARS PAPER 2. Line of the night: (Lawler, when security came for Benoit) - "IS THAT THE MOUNTIE!?"
I thought Lawler said "mounties" (plural) because security was wearing red shirts.
Personally, I liked the "watt?" light bulb sign the best.
Then I can write a washing bill in Babylonic cuneiform, And tell you every detail of Caractacus's uniform; In short, in matters vegetable, animal, and mineral, I am the very model of a modern Major-General.
Note to WWE. Thanks for adding the ladder to the RVD-Eddy match on Raw. I would've paid to see that on PPV but you saved me $35.
Also, I stopped listening to Good Ol' JR when he called RVD's back handspring onto the ladder "Rolling Thunder", but I did catch the "Anything can happen..." crap after the fan ran in. Good Ol' JR needs to go on a loooooong vacation. Even if they had someone crappy doing play-by-play it would make us all long for him to come back. (See Lawler, last year, for some people.)
I don't know, of the 3 matches listed only the Hogan vs Goldy match belongs there. Did the HBK/Austin vs Dog/Hart and LOD vs HHH/HBK have any impact on the "Monday Night Wars"? I can think of so many more matches that should go there.